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Skaven way too underpowered in campaign - fix your game please

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  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Registered Users Posts: 2,370
    Its the unit scaling, thread solved. Everyone stop arguing now. He was right from his perspective and you were right from yours.
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Registered Users Posts: 1,630
    Yep, I’ve heard several times the unit scaling made a difference but unfortunately for Skaven it seems it must lack a big difference. Which makes sense considering how fragile and artillery heavy they are. Until I’ve tried small scaling I take back my criticism, but honestly I won’t be going to small scaling.
  • UnconqueredSunUnconqueredSun Registered Users Posts: 160

    Yep, I’ve heard several times the unit scaling made a difference but unfortunately for Skaven it seems it must lack a big difference. Which makes sense considering how fragile and artillery heavy they are. Until I’ve tried small scaling I take back my criticism, but honestly I won’t be going to small scaling.

    Skaven are versatile, not [anything] heavy.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,009
    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.
  • UnconqueredSunUnconqueredSun Registered Users Posts: 160

    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.

    Last I checked small scaling favored shock cavalry and such. So if you do play Slaven on small, perhaps try the Doomwheel.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,009

    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.

    Last I checked small scaling favored shock cavalry and such. So if you do play Slaven on small, perhaps try the Doomwheel.
    That's a fair point but Doomwheels are a Tier 5 unit, so if the Skaven on small scaling have to wait that long to have a powerful unit then obviously they're not very functional.
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Registered Users Posts: 1,630

    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.

    Last I checked small scaling favored shock cavalry and such. So if you do play Slaven on small, perhaps try the Doomwheel.
    That's a fair point but Doomwheels are a Tier 5 unit, so if the Skaven on small scaling have to wait that long to have a powerful unit then obviously they're not very functional.
    Honestly I think they’re still fine. The problem is he was taking advice from people who are using large or ultra unit sizes. Small reduces the effectiveness of the units he was attempting to use, so the advice changes.


    I recommend Storm Vermin with halbreds, maybe a couple rat ogres to stick in the middle with the Storm Vermin(maybe, not sure how they perform on small) and definitely a engineer hero or any other hero that has the lightning spell.
    I still think menace from below is fine, try to center the circle bit on the enemy units where they’re blobbinf up and use it to flank, or just spread rats into their lines and disrupt. The explosion from the mound of dirt really messes with morale in my experience
  • omgomgomgomgomgomg Registered Users Posts: 126


    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    Wow, EXCELLENT WORK! As far as I'm concerned, this settles the issue. I'll either switch to large unit sizes (but crappy laptop :( ), or go with other unit advice.

    Also, didn't know you were supposed to put the circle where the rats pop up on an enemy unit - dumb me. I always placed it so they would pop out in the clear, then run into and attack an enemy.

    Anyway, thanks to those who actually tried to be helpful, and there were a few here and there.

    Good job.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,652
    omgomgomg said:

    1650 skaven (3 full stacks) against 420 dwarfs, and 1 stack was full plagueclaw.

    I was sitting on a high mountain. He started in a gully. He had to trudge all the way up the mountain, fighting through all the chaff I threw in his way.

    Laughable.


    This is great, but could you please provide a replay?
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • konokonokonokono Registered Users Posts: 299
    CA probably doesn't even test game balance in small or medium unit size
  • SeetheSeethe Registered Users Posts: 188
    edited November 2017
    CA stated a billion times that the game is balanced around LARGE. Not SMALL, not NORMAL, not ULTRA, but LARGE.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,652
    Seethe said:

    CA stated a billion times that the game is balanced around LARGE. Not SMALL, not NORMAL, not ULTRA, but LARGE.

    Relax with the tone friend. I didn't know the game was balanced around large till I started posting on the forums, it's a perfectly easy bit of information to miss, there's no need to be upset that someone missed it.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,553
    Unit size makes little difference when you amass that much artillery.

    Here, this time on small unit size and I didn't even bother with any meatshields and went straight for artillery cheese.



    Not a single order issued after the beginning of the battle.

  • Overlord87Overlord87 Registered Users Posts: 850
    I play on medium, not on large, and it seems to me Skaven work just fine there. I'll hold my judgment on small for now.
  • AriakkanAriakkan Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 49
    Skaven are great and the forums are full of guides on how to play them.

    In a nutshell dont use Autoresolve for important battles and focus on your second line, spells and artillery.

    Rat Ogres suck. Globadiers and Warpfire Throwers FTW.
  • omgomgomgomgomgomg Registered Users Posts: 126
    Seethe said:

    CA stated a billion times that the game is balanced around LARGE. Not SMALL, not NORMAL, not ULTRA, but LARGE.

    I have never once seen them state this, and I've played Total War since Shogun.

    If they want people to know it, they should plaster it in the game directions or help or tooltips or something. Not everybody reads every post of the forums every day (where they probably announced this). The two instances I've ever been on the forums was to talk about this issue, and to report an issue years ago with Rome: Total War.
  • UnconqueredSunUnconqueredSun Registered Users Posts: 160
    If it were stated so many times, it shouldn't be hard to provide a citation.
  • AttercopAttercop Registered Users Posts: 113

    If it were stated so many times, it shouldn't be hard to provide a citation.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/202160/unit-size-balance
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,661
    omgomgomg said:


    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    Wow, EXCELLENT WORK! As far as I'm concerned, this settles the issue. I'll either switch to large unit sizes (but crappy laptop :( ), or go with other unit advice.

    Also, didn't know you were supposed to put the circle where the rats pop up on an enemy unit - dumb me. I always placed it so they would pop out in the clear, then run into and attack an enemy.

    Anyway, thanks to those who actually tried to be helpful, and there were a few here and there.

    Good job.
    According to the OP and answer to his issdue has been found. Thread discussion is closed.
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This discussion has been closed.