Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Skaven way too underpowered in campaign - fix your game please

1234568»

Comments

  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 917Registered Users
    omgomgomg said:


    Oh Jesus, finally I understand. You're still playing on small unit scaling!

    My apologies; all of my advice has been given from the basic understanding of Large unit scaling, which is the MP standard, the level at which I play campaign, and the size the game is primarily balanced for.

    ...

    Turn the unit scale up to Large and play a custom battle, and I'd bet you any amount of money that you'll notice a significant difference in how your units perform.

    Hmmm. I would have already done that (large unit sizes) but... I'm playing on a crappy laptop right now because I'm away from home, and I won't be back to a good gaming desktop for another month or so :(

    Anyway, I really had no idea the unit sizes would make that much of a difference, and I had never heard that the game was balanced for large... until you said it. Also, what made me not put much stock in the 'unit size phenomenon' was, it doesn't seem to affect any other race, meaning, I can dominate the game with literally any other race I try (norsca, vampire counts, beastmen, dwarves, orks, empire, bretonnia, etc).

    I'll try some tests in the custom battles on large then, and see what happens. It will be totally crazy if this is the problem after all.
    I know for a fact that high-arc artillery like Plagueclaws and Globadiers perform much worse on small scaling than on large - I haven't tested Rat Ogres, but I bet it's true for them too, just because mechanically having more models in the unit means they tend to form more of a solid line and so take more attacks to the front where full MD applies rather than to the back and sides where they have almost no defense.

  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,357Registered Users
    Its the unit scaling, thread solved. Everyone stop arguing now. He was right from his perspective and you were right from yours.
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Posts: 1,629Registered Users
    Yep, I’ve heard several times the unit scaling made a difference but unfortunately for Skaven it seems it must lack a big difference. Which makes sense considering how fragile and artillery heavy they are. Until I’ve tried small scaling I take back my criticism, but honestly I won’t be going to small scaling.
  • UnconqueredSunUnconqueredSun Posts: 160Registered Users

    Yep, I’ve heard several times the unit scaling made a difference but unfortunately for Skaven it seems it must lack a big difference. Which makes sense considering how fragile and artillery heavy they are. Until I’ve tried small scaling I take back my criticism, but honestly I won’t be going to small scaling.

    Skaven are versatile, not [anything] heavy.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 917Registered Users
    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.
  • UnconqueredSunUnconqueredSun Posts: 160Registered Users

    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.

    Last I checked small scaling favored shock cavalry and such. So if you do play Slaven on small, perhaps try the Doomwheel.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 917Registered Users

    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.

    Last I checked small scaling favored shock cavalry and such. So if you do play Slaven on small, perhaps try the Doomwheel.
    That's a fair point but Doomwheels are a Tier 5 unit, so if the Skaven on small scaling have to wait that long to have a powerful unit then obviously they're not very functional.
  • FifthOfSpaghettiFifthOfSpaghetti Posts: 1,629Registered Users

    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    On Large scaling;



    I would have won outright, if the Runelord hadn't intervened while my Warlord remained hidden. The Plagueclaws did *much* more damage, as I expected - and more than that, the Skavenslaves not only lasted quite a while but they actually got a few kills, especially because one Dwarf Warrior routed under Plagueclaw fire and got run down for about thirty seconds. They did break and run at one point, but then rallied quickly and could be brought back to attack the Dwarf Warriors just as they assaulted my Plagueclaws.

    On Small scaling, on the other hand;



    That looks basically like what omgomgomg has been complaining about. The Skavenslaves broke almost instantly on contact, and the Plagueclaw scored I think a total of two hits during the entire battle. Each shot did respectable damage, but since it was only one projectile that wasn't enough to inflict serious morale shock.

    So on Large unit scaling I took about 30% fewer casualties than the Dwarves, while on Small unit scaling I took 100% more. On Large scaling my Plagueclaws scored over 100 kills, while on Small unit scaling they got about 1/10th of that; and on Large scaling my Skavenslaves were an effective meatshield and even inflicted damage, while on Small scaling they accomplished literally nothing.

    Conclusion; Don't play Skaven on Small unit scaling.

    Last I checked small scaling favored shock cavalry and such. So if you do play Slaven on small, perhaps try the Doomwheel.
    That's a fair point but Doomwheels are a Tier 5 unit, so if the Skaven on small scaling have to wait that long to have a powerful unit then obviously they're not very functional.
    Honestly I think they’re still fine. The problem is he was taking advice from people who are using large or ultra unit sizes. Small reduces the effectiveness of the units he was attempting to use, so the advice changes.


    I recommend Storm Vermin with halbreds, maybe a couple rat ogres to stick in the middle with the Storm Vermin(maybe, not sure how they perform on small) and definitely a engineer hero or any other hero that has the lightning spell.
    I still think menace from below is fine, try to center the circle bit on the enemy units where they’re blobbinf up and use it to flank, or just spread rats into their lines and disrupt. The explosion from the mound of dirt really messes with morale in my experience
  • omgomgomgomgomgomg Posts: 126Registered Users


    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    Wow, EXCELLENT WORK! As far as I'm concerned, this settles the issue. I'll either switch to large unit sizes (but crappy laptop :( ), or go with other unit advice.

    Also, didn't know you were supposed to put the circle where the rats pop up on an enemy unit - dumb me. I always placed it so they would pop out in the clear, then run into and attack an enemy.

    Anyway, thanks to those who actually tried to be helpful, and there were a few here and there.

    Good job.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,847Registered Users
    omgomgomg said:

    1650 skaven (3 full stacks) against 420 dwarfs, and 1 stack was full plagueclaw.

    I was sitting on a high mountain. He started in a gully. He had to trudge all the way up the mountain, fighting through all the chaff I threw in his way.

    Laughable.


    This is great, but could you please provide a replay?
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • konokonokonokono Posts: 299Registered Users
    CA probably doesn't even test game balance in small or medium unit size
  • SeetheSeethe Posts: 185Registered Users
    edited November 2017
    CA stated a billion times that the game is balanced around LARGE. Not SMALL, not NORMAL, not ULTRA, but LARGE.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,847Registered Users
    Seethe said:

    CA stated a billion times that the game is balanced around LARGE. Not SMALL, not NORMAL, not ULTRA, but LARGE.

    Relax with the tone friend. I didn't know the game was balanced around large till I started posting on the forums, it's a perfectly easy bit of information to miss, there's no need to be upset that someone missed it.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,257Registered Users
    Unit size makes little difference when you amass that much artillery.

    Here, this time on small unit size and I didn't even bother with any meatshields and went straight for artillery cheese.



    Not a single order issued after the beginning of the battle.
  • Overlord87Overlord87 Posts: 827Registered Users
    I play on medium, not on large, and it seems to me Skaven work just fine there. I'll hold my judgment on small for now.
  • AriakkanAriakkan Junior Member Posts: 48Registered Users
    Skaven are great and the forums are full of guides on how to play them.

    In a nutshell dont use Autoresolve for important battles and focus on your second line, spells and artillery.

    Rat Ogres suck. Globadiers and Warpfire Throwers FTW.
  • omgomgomgomgomgomg Posts: 126Registered Users
    Seethe said:

    CA stated a billion times that the game is balanced around LARGE. Not SMALL, not NORMAL, not ULTRA, but LARGE.

    I have never once seen them state this, and I've played Total War since Shogun.

    If they want people to know it, they should plaster it in the game directions or help or tooltips or something. Not everybody reads every post of the forums every day (where they probably announced this). The two instances I've ever been on the forums was to talk about this issue, and to report an issue years ago with Rome: Total War.
  • UnconqueredSunUnconqueredSun Posts: 160Registered Users
    If it were stated so many times, it shouldn't be hard to provide a citation.
  • AttercopAttercop Posts: 89Registered Users

    If it were stated so many times, it shouldn't be hard to provide a citation.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/202160/unit-size-balance
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,764Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    omgomgomg said:


    Yeah, I just ran a comparative test. One Plagueclaw with one Skavenslave to meatshield against two Dwarf Warriors; I hid my Warlord in the forest to avoid the AI seeing him and just let the Dwarves march forward to attack my Slaves and then my Plagueclaw.

    Wow, EXCELLENT WORK! As far as I'm concerned, this settles the issue. I'll either switch to large unit sizes (but crappy laptop :( ), or go with other unit advice.

    Also, didn't know you were supposed to put the circle where the rats pop up on an enemy unit - dumb me. I always placed it so they would pop out in the clear, then run into and attack an enemy.

    Anyway, thanks to those who actually tried to be helpful, and there were a few here and there.

    Good job.
    According to the OP and answer to his issdue has been found. Thread discussion is closed.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
This discussion has been closed.