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Improving the badlands (and Skaven presence)

cool_ladcool_lad Senior MemberIndiaPosts: 2,272Registered Users
I thought I'd get some input from others before posting this in the feedback thread.

I believe that the badlands is currently not as interesting as it could be, especially due to a lack of Skaven and rapid expansion in part of Karak Azul, leading to a a noticeable sameness for the Greenskin and Dwarven campaigns due to a lack of Skaven.

I would therefore like to suggest that:-
1. Karak 8 peaks be handed off to an AI Skaven clan that starts off with slightly higher level buildings, allowing them to really expand.
2. Karak Azul and the dwarven clans in around it be made weaker in some way in order to prevent the Dwarven steamrolling problem that is caused by the rapid early expansion of Karak Azul.
3. ‎ More Skaven factions be added to the general region (there being plenty of greenskins and dwarves).
4. ‎ Greenskin and Skaven incursions into Empire lands could also be created. Possibly as a spawned army that makes its way towards Altdorf, or maybe as random events that generate a chance for a minor attack from a spawned mid-level faction from the direction of the badlands.

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could link a map containing the start locations and territory of all factions in order to allow me to make more specific suggestions.


What are your ideas?
«1

Comments

  • blaatblaat Junior Member Posts: 3,061Registered Users
    agreed

    snip

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  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,192Registered Users
    If any Skaven Faction should controle Karak Eight Peaks it's Clan Mors, otherwise the Mutinous Gits fill the role good enough
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaPosts: 2,272Registered Users

    If any Skaven Faction should controle Karak Eight Peaks it's Clan Mors, otherwise the Mutinous Gits fill the role good enough

    The problem seems to be cramming too many main factions close together. A more spread out start positions make sense, if only to allow more iconic factions to survive into the main game.
  • FrontlinerDeltaFrontlinerDelta Senior Member Posts: 3,549Registered Users
    I agree with all your suggestions.
  • EnforestEnforest Posts: 2,033Registered Users
    edited December 2017
    Strip ALL the dwarf factions (except for Kraka Drak and Greybeard Prospectors) from all minor settlements and give them to Skaven and Greenskin factions.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,192Registered Users
    Enforest said:

    Strip ALL the dwarf factions (except for Kraka Drak and Greybeard Prospectors) from all minor settlements and give them to Skaven and Greenskin factions.

    That's a giant grudgin'!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • DwarfMasterRaceDwarfMasterRace Posts: 1,960Registered Users
    I think Eight Peaks should be a ten slot city, and the starting capital for Clan Mors in ME. Honestly, it's frankly just bizarre that this isn't already the case given that in the lore Eight Peaks is a massive Karak riving the Everpeak itself and most of it is currently ruled over by Queek's Clan Mors Skaven...
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users
    edited December 2017
    1. No. Mutinous Gits are fine. If they did change it to Skaven in K8P, they would have to go back and change stuff in Skarsnik and Belegar's campaigns.

    2. I don't think the issue is with Dwarfs. I think that Greenskin snd Skaven AI is too passive while the Dwarfs are too willing to go on the warpath. The other issue is Greenskin Waaaggghhs being underwhelming.

    3. Agreed. Perhaos giving some of Karak Azul's starting territory to some Skaven would be good. And some of the Savage Orc territory.

    4. Better idea. Any time a city is razed there is a chance that Skaven take over the ruins. And the Orc tribes who already exist in the Empire region (but are hordes or stuck up in the mountains) get their AI tuned up a bit, to make them try to get WAAAGGHHHs off of raidinf and sacking weaker settlements, then once they Waggghhh they turn on the Empire snd Bretonia.
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,421Registered Users
    fe414bcdc4a96a04791b2b24103f29d4.jpg

    Turn 80 :

    Gave GS a slight 0.5 animosity buff per turn, (from CeltiK method), increased a bit their strengh evaluation in siege attack, lovered a bit the dwarf strengh evaluation in siege attack (+10 and -10% ), and removed Wurrzag Ai debuff (he gets an anti traits that nullifies his savage orcs upkeep bonus)

  • DwarfMasterRaceDwarfMasterRace Posts: 1,960Registered Users
    Zergles said:

    1. No. Mutinous Gits are fine. If they did change it to Skaven in K8P, they would have to go back and change stuff in Skarsnik and Belegar's campaigns.

    2. I don't think the issue is with Dwarfs. I think that Greenskin snd Skaven AI is too passive while the Dwarfs are too willing to go on the warpath. The other issue is Greenskin Waaaggghhs being underwhelming.

    3. Agreed. Perhaos giving some of Karak Azul's starting territory to some Skaven would be good. And some of the Savage Orc territory.

    4. Better idea. Any time a city is razed there is a chance that Skaven take over the ruins. And the Orc tribes who already exist in the Empire region (but are hordes or stuck up in the mountains) get their AI tuned up a bit, to make them try to get WAAAGGHHHs off of raidinf and sacking weaker settlements, then once they Waggghhh they turn on the Empire snd Bretonia.

    I think it would improve both of their campaigns. I like the idea of Belegar and Skarsnik racing to see who will kick out the Skaven first. Besides, this is only for ME. The TWW1 campaigns would remain the same.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Posts: 1,275Registered Users
    Enforest said:

    Strip ALL the dwarf factions (except for Kraka Drak and Greybeard Prospectors) from all minor settlements and give them to Skaven and Greenskin factions.




    I approve.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 3,011Registered Users

    Zergles said:

    1. No. Mutinous Gits are fine. If they did change it to Skaven in K8P, they would have to go back and change stuff in Skarsnik and Belegar's campaigns.

    2. I don't think the issue is with Dwarfs. I think that Greenskin snd Skaven AI is too passive while the Dwarfs are too willing to go on the warpath. The other issue is Greenskin Waaaggghhs being underwhelming.

    3. Agreed. Perhaos giving some of Karak Azul's starting territory to some Skaven would be good. And some of the Savage Orc territory.

    4. Better idea. Any time a city is razed there is a chance that Skaven take over the ruins. And the Orc tribes who already exist in the Empire region (but are hordes or stuck up in the mountains) get their AI tuned up a bit, to make them try to get WAAAGGHHHs off of raidinf and sacking weaker settlements, then once they Waggghhh they turn on the Empire snd Bretonia.

    I think it would improve both of their campaigns. I like the idea of Belegar and Skarsnik racing to see who will kick out the Skaven first. Besides, this is only for ME. The TWW1 campaigns would remain the same.

    Well their campaigns in TWWH2 are essentially still the same. I'm not outright saying your idea is bad. I'm just saying they would have to redo a few things for Skarsnik and Belegar as far as the narration, references in their campaigns, and the entire storyline for Skarsnik in general would need to be tweaked. He was supposed to be the last person in charge of it in general and the game reflects that, still in ME. So CA would be changing 3 factions. Not just swapping one out for another.

    I also thought of something else that may help: making Skaven be the rebels in a few regions.
  • WyvaxWyvax Posts: 1,984Registered Users
    edited December 2017

    I think Eight Peaks should be a ten slot city, and the starting capital for Clan Mors in ME. Honestly, it's frankly just bizarre that this isn't already the case given that in the lore Eight Peaks is a massive Karak riving the Everpeak itself and most of it is currently ruled over by Queek's Clan Mors Skaven...

    I agree with the ten slot idea. K8P should be more of a prize for any race that takes it, but especially Dawi, grobi and thagorakki. As for the start position, it should stay neutral methinks. Because dwarfs, gobbos and Clan Mors each control a bit of the city technically and the whole thing is like the trenches in WW1. And there's no way to partition it among the three sides in game. So the race idea is the next best thing IMO.
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  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,146Registered Users
    I would take 2-3 settlements of Karak Azul for 1 or 2 Skaven factions.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • antigonusoneeyeantigonusoneeye Posts: 237Registered Users
    I feel like k8p is best left in a non-player faction's hands for the early game. A, half of what makes belagar and Skarsnik fun are the random mutinous git armies that show up before you are secure, and B, I love the idea of three factions all heading for the same location, bent on controlling it in defiance of the other two. I don't care how big it gets, but I would like the unique buildings to be more impressive than they currently are.

    I am all for a reduction in dwarfs in favor of GS and Skaven. I am even more in favor of mixing in some of the other races in the area. right now, that section of the map is huge and the only major factions are dwarves and GS. Comparatively, the empire has vamps, norscans, GS, Dwarves, beastmen, Bretonnia, and eventually chaos packed into the same size region. I am sure there is a lore argument for why a few elves might have wound up down there or something.
  • coury97coury97 Junior Member Posts: 607Registered Users

    I feel like k8p is best left in a non-player faction's hands for the early game. A, half of what makes belagar and Skarsnik fun are the random mutinous git armies that show up before you are secure, and B, I love the idea of three factions all heading for the same location, bent on controlling it in defiance of the other two. I don't care how big it gets, but I would like the unique buildings to be more impressive than they currently are.

    I am all for a reduction in dwarfs in favor of GS and Skaven. I am even more in favor of mixing in some of the other races in the area. right now, that section of the map is huge and the only major factions are dwarves and GS. Comparatively, the empire has vamps, norscans, GS, Dwarves, beastmen, Bretonnia, and eventually chaos packed into the same size region. I am sure there is a lore argument for why a few elves might have wound up down there or something.

    It could be a nice Startng Position for Eltharion, if they ever implemented him.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Posts: 3,846Registered Users
    coury97 said:

    I feel like k8p is best left in a non-player faction's hands for the early game. A, half of what makes belagar and Skarsnik fun are the random mutinous git armies that show up before you are secure, and B, I love the idea of three factions all heading for the same location, bent on controlling it in defiance of the other two. I don't care how big it gets, but I would like the unique buildings to be more impressive than they currently are.

    I am all for a reduction in dwarfs in favor of GS and Skaven. I am even more in favor of mixing in some of the other races in the area. right now, that section of the map is huge and the only major factions are dwarves and GS. Comparatively, the empire has vamps, norscans, GS, Dwarves, beastmen, Bretonnia, and eventually chaos packed into the same size region. I am sure there is a lore argument for why a few elves might have wound up down there or something.

    It could be a nice Startng Position for Eltharion, if they ever implemented him.
    Yeah no, I do think a Badlands start for Eltharion would actually be kind of cool, but having him start in K8P would just be dumb. Three races that have been fighting over a single spot have no decisive victor after hundreds of years but some Elf marches in and claims the hold with no issue, nah.

    As for the topic, K8P being given to Mutinous gits is fine as is IMO. I do think that minor settlements from Dwarf factions should be given to Skaven, that seems like it'd be a good idea. Mainly in Karak Azul, Karak Azul is supposed to be on the defensive(even moreso than other holds) while it usually becomes a fairly strong power even late game. Allow it to hold out, sure, but give some stuff to Skaven clans. That black mountain region that isn't Karak Hirn or the orc faction itself could also be given to a Skaven clan.

    Frankly the biggest problem is there isn't much of a place for the Skaven to develop and grow, and they don't have much presence on the world map. If there was an underway map, everything would change, but sadly the Underway is but a stance.

    I suppose in the meantime though, a "Vermintide" sort of event late game that spawns high quality stacks of Skaven in certain regions would be good for now.
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,421Registered Users
    But which skavens? Whole new clans? Could we use clan Skryre as a proxy for the moment?
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,192Registered Users
    edited December 2017
    coury97 said:

    I feel like k8p is best left in a non-player faction's hands for the early game. A, half of what makes belagar and Skarsnik fun are the random mutinous git armies that show up before you are secure, and B, I love the idea of three factions all heading for the same location, bent on controlling it in defiance of the other two. I don't care how big it gets, but I would like the unique buildings to be more impressive than they currently are.

    I am all for a reduction in dwarfs in favor of GS and Skaven. I am even more in favor of mixing in some of the other races in the area. right now, that section of the map is huge and the only major factions are dwarves and GS. Comparatively, the empire has vamps, norscans, GS, Dwarves, beastmen, Bretonnia, and eventually chaos packed into the same size region. I am sure there is a lore argument for why a few elves might have wound up down there or something.

    It could be a nice Startng Position for Eltharion, if they ever implemented him.
    Elgi Scum in Vala-Azril-Ungol ? EXTERMINATE THEM ALL!


    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChilePosts: 650Registered Users
    - Mutinous Gits are not fine.

    They are an special Faction that the AI never declare war on them. The Vampire Counts dominated my campaign along with the Von Carstein and they never declared war on Mutinous Gits even when they have a settlement in the middle of their kingdoms........Mutinous Gits is a bad mechanics that should be replaced for something normal, dwarfs, greenskins or skaven, whatever...

    - Karak Azul is too strong in early game, having a lot of provinces. Some of them could be Skavens.

    - In WH1 the badlands were the place of epic Dwarfs and Greenskins battles, now the Vampires have a huge presence in the area, and I believe the vampire AI is better than other factions AI due the amount of armies they can get.

    - I really believe the badlands need more Skaven presence, not only Clan Mors.

    1) There are 3 Vampire Factions near the Badlands.
    2) There are 3 Dwarfs Factions in the Badlands.
    3) There are 7 Greenskins Factions in the Badlands.
    4) Last Defenders can roll out the AI and can approach the Badlands
    5) Clan Mors is the only Skaven Faction in the Area, Clan Mordkin die in the first 5 turns by the Last Defenders.

    The Vermintide is very small in this videogame......almost null presence.
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,421Registered Users
    There is no point architecturing a grand badland scheme before the coming of TK, though, they're gonna throw out a lot of that possible balance.

  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChilePosts: 650Registered Users
    uriak said:

    But which skavens? Whole new clans? Could we use clan Skryre as a proxy for the moment?

    Clan Skryre should be a playable faction and starting at Skavenblight.

    - Clan Gritak can have K8P, i don't know if it is lorewise, but Clan Mors killed them in the battle of K8P
    - Clan Festerlingus can have a minor presence in the southlands....not only the vampires...
    - Clan Gnaw can have a minor presence in the Badlands...
  • copperd123copperd123 Posts: 237Registered Users
    cool_lad said:

    I thought I'd get some input from others before posting this in the feedback thread.

    I believe that the badlands is currently not as interesting as it could be, especially due to a lack of Skaven and rapid expansion in part of Karak Azul, leading to a a noticeable sameness for the Greenskin and Dwarven campaigns due to a lack of Skaven.

    I would therefore like to suggest that:-
    1. Karak 8 peaks be handed off to an AI Skaven clan that starts off with slightly higher level buildings, allowing them to really expand.
    2. Karak Azul and the dwarven clans in around it be made weaker in some way in order to prevent the Dwarven steamrolling problem that is caused by the rapid early expansion of Karak Azul.
    3. ‎ More Skaven factions be added to the general region (there being plenty of greenskins and dwarves).
    4. ‎ Greenskin and Skaven incursions into Empire lands could also be created. Possibly as a spawned army that makes its way towards Altdorf, or maybe as random events that generate a chance for a minor attack from a spawned mid-level faction from the direction of the badlands.

    I would greatly appreciate it if someone could link a map containing the start locations and territory of all factions in order to allow me to make more specific suggestions.


    What are your ideas?

    If you have a look at the campaign map you see two definite settlements that will be added just east of the map as it is now, these are Mount Grimfang O&Gs (previously Mount Silverspear) and Crookback Mountain which is the HQ of Clan Rictus, the fiercest rival of Clan Mors and led by Warlord Kratch Doomclaw a member of the Council of Thirteen.

    These are conveniently located in the doorsteps of Karaz a Karak Dwarfs (Mount Grimfang) and Karak Azul (Clan Rictus), game 3 will solve much of the problems with dwarf domination in my opinion
  • copperd123copperd123 Posts: 237Registered Users
    edited December 2017
    Just also add the actual mountains are visible on the map as it is now so it's almost assured they'll both be in the 3rd game

  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 5,019Registered Users

    Just also add the actual mountains are visible on the map as it is now so it's almost assured they'll both be in the 3rd game

    You know maybe Clan Rictus could be added as playable and map extended a bit to include this area in game 2.
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  • copperd123copperd123 Posts: 237Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    Just also add the actual mountains are visible on the map as it is now so it's almost assured they'll both be in the 3rd game

    You know maybe Clan Rictus could be added as playable and map extended a bit to include this area in game 2.
    True
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,526Registered Users
    I had origonally suggested something like this.


    It got trashed on by the forums because it replaces mostly Orc tribes. That said Orcs start with twice the number of settlements as the dwarfs and this brings it closer to an even 3 way split.

    I feel the Dawi Tide is a problem that needs addressing separately from starting regions.

    Auto resolve for both Dwarfs and Skaven are borked at the moment.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • IchonIchon Senior Member Posts: 4,788Registered Users


    If you have a look at the campaign map you see two definite settlements that will be added just east of the map as it is now, these are Mount Grimfang O&Gs (previously Mount Silverspear) and Crookback Mountain which is the HQ of Clan Rictus, the fiercest rival of Clan Mors and led by Warlord Kratch Doomclaw a member of the Council of Thirteen.

    These are conveniently located in the doorsteps of Karaz a Karak Dwarfs (Mount Grimfang) and Karak Azul (Clan Rictus), game 3 will solve much of the problems with dwarf domination in my opinion

    I think this definitely plays into how CA has divided the Badlands but that long term planning makes the next couple years until part 3 much more boring Badlands than necessary.

    When Dwarfs suddenly have 5-6 enemy factions on their eastern side the under siege feeling will be more apparent but that is years away. Badlands is just not that fun in ME where it plays like WH1 or even worse while I do think most other places play quite a bit better.
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  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaPosts: 2,272Registered Users
    From what I've seen, the Dwarven dominance doesn't actually come from the main Dwarven faction, which actually still struggles against greenskin factions well into the late game.

    The issue arises from the peripheral Dwarven factions such as Karak Azul and Greybeards Prospectors, who seem to explode due to a lack of opposition or well established territory.

    It is these southern Dwarven factions that really need to be addressed instead of the greenskins or the northern Dwarves (who are generally still fighting over the area into the late game).

    I think that some greenskin and Dwarven factions could be replaced with Skaven (who would be given slightly more developed settlements to encourage their expansion). The main targets for this would be in the south around Karak Azul and near (or replacing) Greybeards Prospectors, another candidate for Skaven settlement is mount Gunbad and its associated territory, which also opens another avenue for Skaven expansion into the Empire (which never seems to see any Skaven).
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,526Registered Users
    Very much could be the case Ichon, still I'd prefer more Skaven in the world adding one more big clan to the east of the Silver Road is still underwhelming.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

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