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What are the worst match-ups at the moment?

Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
Hey guys i'm in the process of writing out a big balance suggestion post. The aim will be to bring the balance between certain races closer together and try limit super one sided match-ups. If people could state match ups that they feel are very one sided and reasons why (prefferably for the races they use the most or are the most familiar with) it would help me come up with potential ideas that could adress those match-ups.

For me;

Dwarfs > WE (difficulty 7.5) - Many units in the WE roster have magical attacks, due to this their damage is mitigated by Dwarven magic resistance on all their units. Second factor that contributed to this MU( match-up) being hard is the fact that dwarfs have access to shields on their missile units, without taking arty into the equation this makes it hard for WE missile units to trade with Dwarven ones.

HE > WE (difficulty 9)- Main problem in my view is that HE's can outrange WE's basic missile units and are also superior gold for gold in all areas (magic,infantry,missile,cav,air). Dragon armour is also a problem for WE's due to GG-H (glade guard hagbane) having flaming attacks thoush their damage against Dragon Princes is reduced by 70%. In my view if WE's had higher range in GG and deepwood scouts than basic HE archers it would change the dynamics of the match up, thous opening different army compositions from both sides.

LZM > HE (Difficulty 6.5)- HE are venerable to dealing with multiple highly armoured monsters, the fact that LZM have multiple ways of healing them and krog gar having a small hit box makes it hard for HE's.

I feel any match-up that feels 6.5 or higher should be taken into balancing consideration.
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Comments

  • irurobinirurobin Posts: 1,497Registered Users
    High Elves vs Wood Elves really isn't that bad. There is no need to nerf High Elves range because of this. Buff wood elves is the right way to go.

    Dwarfs dump triple rune spam is back so yeah the match up is even more broken than warhammer 1.

    Lizardmen and Skaven are both broken on their own.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 935Registered Users
    I agree with dwarf we. I think they key question is whether any we units can just lose magic attacks as a trait entirely. If that's not a major problem it would just make the matchup more interesting. I don't really care if one side is advantaged so much as that both sides have interesting army choices. We have too few choices right now.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    I will take all thise things into consideration for sure when writing out the balance post, for now i just want to learn more which match-ups people find very difficult.

    DE > Dwarfs (6.5) - comes to mind also due to DE roster having such good access to AP and Dwarfs paying premium price for armour.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 935Registered Users
    Dwarfs crush de in my experience. The funny thing is how everyone thinks it's the other way around.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 935Registered Users
    irurobin said:

    High Elves vs Wood Elves really isn't that bad. There is no need to nerf High Elves range because of this. Buff wood elves is the right way to go.

    Dwarfs dump triple rune spam is back so yeah the match up is even more broken than warhammer 1.

    Lizardmen and Skaven are both broken on their own.

    What's broken about skaven aside from skrolk being over the top?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    irurobin said:

    High Elves vs Wood Elves really isn't that bad. There is no need to nerf High Elves range because of this. Buff wood elves is the right way to go.

    Dwarfs dump triple rune spam is back so yeah the match up is even more broken than warhammer 1.

    Lizardmen and Skaven are both broken on their own.

    What's broken about skaven aside from skrolk being over the top?
    In my view only summons the rest seems fine, potentially WLC accuracy also (but that has been stated by CA that it will be looked at).
  • irurobinirurobin Posts: 1,497Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    irurobin said:

    High Elves vs Wood Elves really isn't that bad. There is no need to nerf High Elves range because of this. Buff wood elves is the right way to go.

    Dwarfs dump triple rune spam is back so yeah the match up is even more broken than warhammer 1.

    Lizardmen and Skaven are both broken on their own.

    What's broken about skaven aside from skrolk being over the top?
    Summons / Gutter Runners' net + posion / Debuff spells / Winds / Breath / Most heroes' abilities and items / doom wheel / overall speed / cheap fodders.
    are all over the top.
  • PippingtonPippington Posts: 974Registered Users
    edited December 5
    HE vs. VC. VC get wrecked in the air, but if they don't contest the air then the Mortis and any lord but Vlad gets wrecked by breath snipes. VC ground forces have no cost-effective answer to White Lions and Phoenix Guard, and Lothern Sea Guard are the perfect summon-proof, cav-proof hybrid archer unit. I honestly think this might be one of the worst matchups there's ever been in the full patch history of WH1 and 2.

    Lizardmen vs. Greenskins. Greenskins have no AP shooting, and their only AP anti-large unit terror routs the moment a Carnosaur looks at them funny. Even huge amounts of focus fire from Arrer Boyz + Da Rusty Arrerz can be healed back with a single charge of Cold-Blooded. A Lizardman army with enough dinos and enough healing just steamrolls 90% of Greenskin armies with Terror.

    Skaven vs. Greenskins. They out-swarm you such that you don't have the ability to envelop + choose engagements, and then they just run you over with terror-causing Doomwheels and furnaces. Plus there are few to none GS lords who can survive getting tagged by the Liber Bubonicus, so you either keep your lord far away from the action the whole game (=> no Waaagh) or you try to aggressively snipe Skrolk and most likely get yourself killed in the process.

    DE vs. everyone who likes having control of their own units. Madness of Khaine is just bonkers.

    Many of the old standbys like Chaos vs. VC or Wood Elves vs. Greenskins also still feel tilted... although most of the ones involving Empire or Bretonnia are no longer so.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 935Registered Users
    edited December 5
    irurobin said:

    eumaies said:

    irurobin said:

    High Elves vs Wood Elves really isn't that bad. There is no need to nerf High Elves range because of this. Buff wood elves is the right way to go.

    Dwarfs dump triple rune spam is back so yeah the match up is even more broken than warhammer 1.

    Lizardmen and Skaven are both broken on their own.

    What's broken about skaven aside from skrolk being over the top?
    Summons / Gutter Runners' net + posion / Debuff spells / Winds / Breath / Most heroes' abilities and items / doom wheel / overall speed / cheap fodders.
    are all over the top.
    Hmmm ok. I mostly mind the summons.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 935Registered Users

    HE vs. VC. VC get wrecked in the air, but if they don't contest the air then the Mortis and any lord but Vlad gets wrecked by breath snipes. VC ground forces have no cost-effective answer to White Lions and Phoenix Guard, and Lothern Sea Guard are the perfect summon-proof, cav-proof hybrid archer unit. I honestly think this might be one of the worst matchups there's ever been in the full patch history of WH1 and 2.

    Lizardmen vs. Greenskins. Greenskins have no AP shooting, and their only AP anti-large unit terror routs the moment a Carnosaur looks at them funny. Even huge amounts of focus fire from Arrer Boyz + Da Rusty Arrerz can be healed back with a single charge of Cold-Blooded. A Lizardman army with enough dinos and enough healing just steamrolls 90% of Greenskin armies with Terror.

    Skaven vs. Greenskins. They out-swarm you such that you don't have the ability to envelop + choose engagements, and then they just run you over with terror-causing Doomwheels and furnaces. Plus there are few to none GS lords who can survive getting tagged by the Liber Bubonicus, so you either keep your lord far away from the action the whole game (=> no Waaagh) or you try to aggressively snipe Skrolk and most likely get yourself killed in the process.

    DE vs. everyone who likes having control of their own units. Madness of Khaine is just bonkers.

    Many of the old standbys like Chaos vs. VC or Wood Elves vs. Greenskins also still feel tilted... although most of the ones involving Empire or Bretonnia are no longer so.

    Great points on the first two in particular.
  • DracoknightDracoknight Posts: 203Registered Users
    Lets see, basically everyone without decent anti-armor ranged or anti-large VS Lizards (VC, Greenskins, To some degree Skaven, Bretonia) Due to the extremly slipperiness of their large units and the unkillable lords they have to due a overabundance of healing you can basically will the battle with Kroq and a skink cheif alone. Battle is basically won until your last remaining troops struggle for dear life as terror plays a bigger role. Diffeculity: Easy at first until the mop up where the lizards have no infantry and their lords and heroes left which turn this into Bullcrap territory.

    WE VS Lizards however is easy to medium, depending on the terrain.

    Bretonia VS Beastmen is also a problem, though i think the beastmen problem is a bit more widespread, but personally i cant find a proper way to deal with them as Brets.

    Dark Elves VS most "swarm" factions, though their trigger is based on % on units on the field and if you field a ****-ton of expendables you might be better off sending your elite in first, or just send in your cannon fodder early to tire them out and waste their buff early, hint: It triggers on friendly deaths aswell so if you manage to put a dent in them before combat starts you can make the DE rather fustrated. Its a bad match, but you have ways you can exploit their eagerness to slaughter.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 310Registered Users
    edited December 5
    Lol and i remember some of you guys calling lizards a tier 2 faction soon after ME came out. Seems that generally speaking the wh2 factions are just stronger. If you look at just those 4 factions, theyre mostly well balanced against each other. Sure high elves struggle with lizardmen monsters, but they can just spam phoenix guard which lizards struggle against quite a bit.

    Every old world faction is struggling against at least one of these new factions. Better to buff the old world factions than nerf the new world ones, which again are reasonably well balanced against each other. They should be used as a standard for how the weaker old world factions (mainly vampires and brettonia imo, empire and greenskins less so) should be buffed.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    All great points, i have some ideas in mind just from reading those, and see some trends around. Still bit curious in regards to Chaos match ups and beastman (in particular what is considered strong aspect of the BM roster ATM).
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 2,652Registered Users

    Hey guys i'm in the process of writing out a big balance suggestion post. The aim will be to bring the balance between certain races closer together and try limit super one sided match-ups. If people could state match ups that they feel are very one sided and reasons why (prefferably for the races they use the most or are the most familiar with) it would help me come up with potential ideas that could adress those match-ups.

    For me;

    Dwarfs > WE (difficulty 7.5) - Many units in the WE roster have magical attacks, due to this their damage is mitigated by Dwarven magic resistance on all their units. Second factor that contributed to this MU( match-up) being hard is the fact that dwarfs have access to shields on their missile units, without taking arty into the equation this makes it hard for WE missile units to trade with Dwarven ones.

    HE > WE (difficulty 9)- Main problem in my view is that HE's can outrange WE's basic missile units and are also superior gold for gold in all areas (magic,infantry,missile,cav,air). Dragon armour is also a problem for WE's due to GG-H (glade guard hagbane) having flaming attacks thoush their damage against Dragon Princes is reduced by 70%. In my view if WE's had higher range in GG and deepwood scouts than basic HE archers it would change the dynamics of the match up, thous opening different army compositions from both sides.

    LZM > HE (Difficulty 6.5)- HE are venerable to dealing with multiple highly armoured monsters, the fact that LZM have multiple ways of healing them and krog gar having a small hit box makes it hard for HE's.

    I feel any match-up that feels 6.5 or higher should be taken into balancing consideration.

    uhh i don't know about these they are still close,especially lzd vs he

    basically what pip said he sums it up nicely

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users

    Hey guys i'm in the process of writing out a big balance suggestion post. The aim will be to bring the balance between certain races closer together and try limit super one sided match-ups. If people could state match ups that they feel are very one sided and reasons why (prefferably for the races they use the most or are the most familiar with) it would help me come up with potential ideas that could adress those match-ups.

    For me;

    Dwarfs > WE (difficulty 7.5) - Many units in the WE roster have magical attacks, due to this their damage is mitigated by Dwarven magic resistance on all their units. Second factor that contributed to this MU( match-up) being hard is the fact that dwarfs have access to shields on their missile units, without taking arty into the equation this makes it hard for WE missile units to trade with Dwarven ones.

    HE > WE (difficulty 9)- Main problem in my view is that HE's can outrange WE's basic missile units and are also superior gold for gold in all areas (magic,infantry,missile,cav,air). Dragon armour is also a problem for WE's due to GG-H (glade guard hagbane) having flaming attacks thoush their damage against Dragon Princes is reduced by 70%. In my view if WE's had higher range in GG and deepwood scouts than basic HE archers it would change the dynamics of the match up, thous opening different army compositions from both sides.

    LZM > HE (Difficulty 6.5)- HE are venerable to dealing with multiple highly armoured monsters, the fact that LZM have multiple ways of healing them and krog gar having a small hit box makes it hard for HE's.

    I feel any match-up that feels 6.5 or higher should be taken into balancing consideration.

    uhh i don't know about these they are still close,especially lzd vs he

    basically what pip said he sums it up nicely
    You're more than welcome to disagree, it is just my opinion on those match-ups. Though if you could would you be able to write which match-ups you find yourself to be hard for any races (i'm genuinely interested what you find to be hard match-ups for chaos and please state what makes them hard).
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 2,652Registered Users
    for chaos the hardest are definitely darkelves and vampires and easiest will be bretonnia

    and for general like pip said he vs vc and lizard vs greenskins are pretty bad for the latter,these are the worst matchups so far,that will be hard to figure out.

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users

    for chaos the hardest are definitely darkelves and vampires and easiest will be bretonnia

    and for general like pip said he vs vc and lizard vs greenskins are pretty bad for the latter,these are the worst matchups so far,that will be hard to figure out.

    Thanks, if you doing mind could you expend on them and what makes them hard so i can try brainstorm some ideas that could potentially look at addressing those. I do have ideas in regards to the VC v Chaos match up already but more curious on the DE v Chaos and how hard to you find it to be on a 1-10 scale with 5 being even?

    BTW i do agree with what Pip said and i'm taking everything on board, main thing i'm trying to notice is possibility of what trends are there that are making things hard for certain factions.
  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 291Registered Users

    Lets see, basically everyone without decent anti-armor ranged or anti-large VS Lizards (VC, Greenskins, To some degree Skaven, Bretonia) Due to the extremly slipperiness of their large units and the unkillable lords they have to due a overabundance of healing you can basically will the battle with Kroq and a skink cheif alone. Battle is basically won until your last remaining troops struggle for dear life as terror plays a bigger role. Diffeculity: Easy at first until the mop up where the lizards have no infantry and their lords and heroes left which turn this into Bullcrap territory.

    WE VS Lizards however is easy to medium, depending on the terrain.

    Bretonia VS Beastmen is also a problem, though i think the beastmen problem is a bit more widespread, but personally i cant find a proper way to deal with them as Brets.

    Dark Elves VS most "swarm" factions, though their trigger is based on % on units on the field and if you field a ****-ton of expendables you might be better off sending your elite in first, or just send in your cannon fodder early to tire them out and waste their buff early, hint: It triggers on friendly deaths aswell so if you manage to put a dent in them before combat starts you can make the DE rather fustrated. Its a bad match, but you have ways you can exploit their eagerness to slaughter.

    VC vs Lizards actually isn't that bad. They have good monsters + El Syf to kill the lizard monsters, and Lizards don't have a particularly good way to kill the mortis engine (Maybe hand of the gods + a skink chief could take it out, but a skink chief will probably be getting harassed in the air), so it can rack up a ton of value.

    Lizards have it pretty easy vs Wood Elves from my experience. I've had Kroq gar get sniped by 4 waywatchers + net without doing anything and still won it.

    Beastmen are just strong in general right now. Pretty much every spell in lore of the wild is strong right now, and Gors (shields) and Bestigors are some of the better infantry in the game right now. The only match up that is particularly bad for them is against Lizardmen.


    As far as Chaos vs DEs: It seems pretty build dependent. Witch elves are really the deciding factor that push the match up into DE favor a bit. I'd say it's maybe a 5.5-6.5 overall, assuming 10 is basically impossible and 1 is basically a guaranteed win. Dark elves can get more decisive wins when they have the right tools vs what chaos brings, and it's easier for them to build for the match up, but it's not like there are any DE builds that chaos absolutely can't beat.

    Greenskins vs Lizards: I think Wurrzhag is probably a must in the match up. While he's a bit vulnerable to skink chiefs, goblin archers can pressure them, and he can net+damage a Lizardmen lord/hero, which can potentially let you lock down and kill it it with goblin big bosses, BBBU, and/or monsters.
  • BlissBliss Posts: 338Registered Users
    WE vs LZM : I don't think that match up is particularly hard for WE (nor easy), just a mix of dryads/EG (no shield)/speardancers/GG Starfire Shaft do just fine most of the time.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 2,112Registered Users
    edited December 5
    @Asamu

    Agreed but the LZD vs GS MU could be really hard if you face a good LZD player.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 79Registered Users
    My impression is that in some matchups you become very restricted in which units are at all viable.

    For examples:

    * HE vs VC, then VC have to give up air and mortis and snipable lords are liabilities. What remains, Vlad + GG with great weapons, etherials (cause HE with Dragons have little magic attacks) and Blood kniggets. That build is not bad though... but very few viable choices.

    * HE vs WE, ranged trading/kiting inefficient for WE.

    * DWF vs LIZ, large dinos vulnerable vs cannons and gunpowder, but going wide with foot lords works quite well I beleive. At least this matchup wasn't mentioned in this thread yet.

    In many cases I think a few key nerfs would open the field up.

    For example: Tempest, Net, Cannon/warpcannon accuracy vs large and chariots, Dragon breath vs single small models, carnosaurs matrix dodge, cold blooded etc.

    Just careful not to make everything vanilla. These borderline OP things are also what defines the different matchups, so... it's a bit of a love-hate thing for me I guess.
  • PippingtonPippington Posts: 974Registered Users
    edited December 5
    The problem with using Wurrzag to net a dino is that this does nothing to the 2 other dinos guarding it. The dinos don't need to blob, but as long as they stay close enough to be mutually supporting any threat to 1 will be crushed by the other 2. And of course they can all heal each other.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • DracoknightDracoknight Posts: 203Registered Users
    Personally i use Azhag, though there might be some issues in the air against multiply targets, but the spells he bring is better at taking down single targets than any of the other Orc lores.

    Plus he is decent enough in melee to deal with most single flying entities.
  • TarutarutimeTarutarutime Posts: 3Registered Users
    The problem with any kind of list like this is there are so many play styles and possible builds that it is hard to seriously evaluate how these match ups go.

    For example, Dwarves vs WE is horribly one sided in favor of wood elves in my experience. You just bring six way watchers and kite the dwarf player until all his dwarves are dead. With 190 range dwarven ranged units can't hit you. To avoid arti fire you use stalk. Go in, fire a volley or two, and get out before he can bring his arti to bear.

    There is literally nothing the dwarf player can do unless he brings a huge amount of organ guns. And even those can be played around using stalk and good micro.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 935Registered Users

    The problem with any kind of list like this is there are so many play styles and possible builds that it is hard to seriously evaluate how these match ups go.

    For example, Dwarves vs WE is horribly one sided in favor of wood elves in my experience. You just bring six way watchers and kite the dwarf player until all his dwarves are dead. With 190 range dwarven ranged units can't hit you. To avoid arti fire you use stalk. Go in, fire a volley or two, and get out before he can bring his arti to bear.

    There is literally nothing the dwarf player can do unless he brings a huge amount of organ guns. And even those can be played around using stalk and good micro.

    I mean, that might be true when they add that +2 ammo, but basically those units cost so much you can let him get all his arrows off and still have an army to mop the floor with him. If you plan for it and bring cheap guys and maybe a rune of missile resistence.

  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 310Registered Users
    edited December 7

    The problem with any kind of list like this is there are so many play styles and possible builds that it is hard to seriously evaluate how these match ups go.

    For example, Dwarves vs WE is horribly one sided in favor of wood elves in my experience. You just bring six way watchers and kite the dwarf player until all his dwarves are dead. With 190 range dwarven ranged units can't hit you. To avoid arti fire you use stalk. Go in, fire a volley or two, and get out before he can bring his arti to bear.

    There is literally nothing the dwarf player can do unless he brings a huge amount of organ guns. And even those can be played around using stalk and good micro.

    Waywatchers have very limited ammo and they cost 1100 gold. All the dwarf player has to do is spam the dwarfs' very cost effective shielded infantry, dwarf warriors and longbeards. Then he can just let the waywatchers go ahead and use up all their ammo, and then there's nothing wood elves can do except draw kite. Sure, they can use eternal guard, wildwood rangers, and wild riders, but its gonna be pretty hard to afford much of that if you bring 6 waywatchers.

    Imo the most broken matchups are:

    Dwarfs vs Wood Elves (for reasons already stated in earlier posts)

    Lizardmen vs Greenskins: Defnitely favors the lizardmen a lot but greenskins can sometimes scrape a win. I've won most of my games against lizardmen. I havent heard anyone mention nasty skulkers but for me they're mvp's in the matchup because their smoke bombs can really shut down monsters. I find grimgor to be the best pick when you combine him with the nasty skulkers, because they can prevent him from getting cycle charged. And with his armor, he's the most resilient against skink chief sniping.

    Greenskins vs Skaven: In short, skaven do everything greenskins do but better. One of the hardest matchups in the game imo.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users

    The problem with any kind of list like this is there are so many play styles and possible builds that it is hard to seriously evaluate how these match ups go.

    For example, Dwarves vs WE is horribly one sided in favor of wood elves in my experience. You just bring six way watchers and kite the dwarf player until all his dwarves are dead. With 190 range dwarven ranged units can't hit you. To avoid arti fire you use stalk. Go in, fire a volley or two, and get out before he can bring his arti to bear.

    There is literally nothing the dwarf player can do unless he brings a huge amount of organ guns. And even those can be played around using stalk and good micro.

    Bring 2 organ guns and 1 gyro unit to scout and its not even a close game.

    But i do agree with your statement, all i want to know what people find uneven and see if i can find ways to make things less abusive when i complete my balance post.
  • ystyst Posts: 425Registered Users
    edited December 7
    Tbh i dont even know why ppl feel the need to mass missile against dwf as we. I personally just melee them.
    https://imgur.com/zMo5XIR
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  • BlissBliss Posts: 338Registered Users
    And rangers do the job to avoid waywatchhers : make sure that Waywatchers can't be in range of art fire without being in range of your own rangers. Your rangers won't be revealed to him before his waywatchers are in your own range of fire.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 560Registered Users
    yst said:

    Tbh i dont even know why ppl feel the need to mass missile against dwf as we. I personally just melee them.

    send me a replay if you've got some saved, I've tried a couple of times, but with low success ratio
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