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Okay, let's brainstorm Waystalker

ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users
edited December 7 in Balancing Discussions
So, currently WS is in a very strange position. It's not a bad or too situational unit, but it's a unit that needs certain conditions to be successful. First one is to be in good position on the flank, second - to not be discovered and eaten alive by cav or doggies, as he does not have any good escape or protection against them. And he takes quite some time to pay for himself But first, let's take about good and bad thing with WS currently.

Good:

1) WS has a very potent anti-infantry missiles. If you position him right, on your enemy flank, he will kill ~3 models with each arrows, getting 80-90 kills on average. He also does not care about which infantry unit he fires on, he can take 3 models from Dwarf warriors or Hammerers, armor and health of typical infantry does not seem matter here. For a 700 cost hero that's pretty decent.

2) Waystalker is really decent in melee, especially against enemy characters. 2 WS get Ungrim Ironfist to 50-40% HP in a pure melee duel before he routs both of them, but that happens mostly because they get exhausted against him pretty damn fast. If they wouldn't, I think they could do some great mischief.

Bad:

1) WS get exhausted pretty fast by shooting and very fast in melee. That is pretty bad.

2) WS items are ALL bad. Currently you better off taking WS with no items equipped. In game 1 there was at least some sense in bringing Arrow of Kurnous, as it could somewhat reliably pay for itself with 2 uses and get some extra value, now it misses pretty much everything and it is 150 gold spent on nothing. His new item, Warrior Bane, is not worth it's meager cost as well. -6% enemy WS is very low. Almost every unit has some AP in his melee attacks, so if you take this item, you're limiting actual DPS of enemy non AP units by 3-4%. And it's useless on AP units. It's not worth even 70 gold, better to spend it on chevrons.

3) WS has no way of escaping if his position is being pinpointed(and it's not that hard to see where the arrows come from) and is not strong enough to defend himself solo.

So, what can we fix here? First, my ideas that I think are a must:
1) Warrior Bane should debuff - 6% WS and -6% AP. Then it would be a decent item.
2) Arrow of Kurnous must be reverted to WH1 status(with 3 charges of course). I do not think anyone fount it OP back then and will find it OP now.
Edit:
3) I think that WakaWaka3000 suggestion would be the greats idea here: Reduce WS cost by 80, but give him access to Foe-Seeker. It feels pretty much perfect.
Edit2:
Or just give him Foe Seeker without cost reduction. That could be fun too.

Then, we got to do something about his survivability. Here are a few different ideas from me, each one can kinda fix his weakness:
1) Give him immunity to vigor. Then he could go solo on the flanks much more freely(and be a way better melee duelist). Sure, he can be tied up by enemy cav, but at least he won't be all exhausted by that point and beaten to death too quickly. My most favorite idea of all 3, simple and robust.
2) Give him 70 gold item, call it "Shadow of Athel Loren", 3 uses, 35 second duration, same effect on visibility as Assasins Smoke bomb(spotted only at very close range), +35% speed, +30% vigor, shooting or attacking dispels it. This item should give WS an escape only in case his position is scouted and retribution is coming, as well as a way to replenish his vigor. Not very reliably however.
3) Make his arrows invisible. This way his position would be quite harder to pin down, but this could become really annoying. And does not really solves the problem of his vigor in melee fights.


If this would be implemented, WS would become quite a unique and interesting unit - anti infantry sniper from range, and decent lord-hero assassin in Melee, as well as having some infantry support with his Warrior Bane.
Post edited by Zeblasky on

Comments

  • RejzelRejzel Posts: 11Registered Users
    First thing what need to be checked is Hawkish Precision, when I made test vs Banshee 0 armor (WS have magical arrows) 25% bonus to AP DMG doesn't applied. He still deal 280 Dmg per shoot.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users
    Rejzel said:

    First thing what need to be checked is Hawkish Precision, when I made test vs Banshee 0 armor (WS have magical arrows) 25% bonus to AP DMG doesn't applied. He still deal 280 Dmg per shoot.

    Just tested it myself, 271 damage. Huh. Either WS is broken or Banshee has some hidden missile resistance. She's a hero after all, this bug could be possible.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    Give him access to eye of kurnos (the ability glady has) so he can buff vanguarding missile units. As an ability At a cost (70gold)


    Add

    Passive ignore shields

    And

    Immune to shooting vigour.

    He woukd still feel meh but i could see him picked in certain army comps.

    Btw AOK is bugged and horrible in game 2 it needs to go down to 100gold, though if it stats like it is i still would't pick it.
  • RejzelRejzel Posts: 11Registered Users
    It also occurs on Waywatchers, but it's harder to see.
    When I was doing some tests to checked how distance effect accuracy I saw that 1 arrow of WW ( with active HP they should have 25AP dmg) deal only 20 dmg to Chosen with GW.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 935Registered Users
    The fixes on the items seem reasonable, but i don't really agree about survivability. WE is all about positioning and trickery. You've got plenty of sneaky, fast, and vanguard units that could be backing him up. Plus he engages when you're threatening with too much other stuff to easily divert resources to shutting him down. I think the tension of trying to protect units like that make the game better. Not every unit should stand alone.
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 190Registered Users
    I can't remember. Does he have foe seeker?

    If not I would decrease his base cost by the cost of foe seeker and incorporate that into him. It would help him get into a flanking position a little faster and replenish his vigour
  • ricmornricmorn Posts: 52Registered Users
    I don't get what is meant by "exhausted fast in melee". Fatigue gain is standard across all units barring fatigue immune and campaign buffs. Unless he's hitting people in melee and shooting at the same time ( by which I mean hitting someone AND shooting them at the same time) he should get the same standard fatigue gain as every other unit. Fatigue rate in melee is 20, so it takes a little over 2 minutes for a unit to be exhausted in melee. This isn't TWW1 either. Shooting fatigues at a rate of 18 per tick. Which is less than melee combat. Shooting while running (18+4) is only 22, so just about 2 minutes.

    I'm not sure what's with the obsession with Immune to Vigor, but I'm fairly certain that ignoring a core mechanic of the game isn't something that's thrown about willy-nilly. Waystalker "gets tired at the same rate as everyone else" could be a downside for every unit bar Centigors or Grail Knight. Item based buffs maybe, but I don't know the pickrate or effectiveness of the Waystalker myself, so I don't even know if he's horrifically bad by CA's metrics or just doesn't hold up in the expectations of some.
  • MTechMTech Posts: 96Registered Users
    Would be nice if other range heroes could be brought up to WS lvl before you give him god status, there is no reason for this hero to get immune to vigor and he already ignores shields if you use his stalk and speed.

    Ignore shield would be something the Master engineer could really profit from which is even without skills just as expensive (don´t really know if he' s still 750gold i dont even look at him anymore) as the WS and not really usefull even with skills.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    MTech said:

    Would be nice if other range heroes could be brought up to WS lvl before you give him god status, there is no reason for this hero to get immune to vigor and he already ignores shields if you use his stalk and speed.

    Ignore shield would be something the Master engineer could really profit from which is even without skills just as expensive (don´t really know if he' s still 750gold i dont even look at him anymore) as the WS and not really usefull even with skills.

    Ignore shields is not even a good skill only bad players who cannot shoot from flanks or only use auto fire think its good, waystalker is **** but so us ME they both dont have a role within the respective rosters at the moment.
  • MTechMTech Posts: 96Registered Users
    Because shooting from flanks with a ME is something possible?

    So you agree with me when i say a stalking unit does not need even more advantages?
    I mean shield ignore on a invisible unit yeah sure sucks and is only for bad players and has nothing to with how now you can just stand right with your troops without fear of getting caught.
  • MTechMTech Posts: 96Registered Users
    Thats just a stupid mechanic and should only be considered if a unit has no other way which the WS has.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    edited December 7
    MTech said:

    Because shooting from flanks with a ME is something possible?

    So you agree with me when i say a stalking unit does not need even more advantages?
    I mean shield ignore on a invisible unit yeah sure sucks and is only for bad players and has nothing to with how now you can just stand right with your troops without fear of getting caught.

    Yes and no its not about stalking unit getting more advantages, its about the unit being worth its cost in gold. waystalker is trash now so either give him some abilities or reduce his cost from 700 to about 550.

    ME has other issues, he needs to start with skills of CD for one and either reduced cost or other incentives to see him get picked.

    Ignore shields is good on waystalker because it promotes play from lower skill players yet leaves him in the same state of power for higher skilled players.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users

    I can't remember. Does he have foe seeker?

    If not I would decrease his base cost by the cost of foe seeker and incorporate that into him. It would help him get into a flanking position a little faster and replenish his vigour

    Actually a pretty great idea! Will let him keep his vigor up while shooting, gives extra mobility, and he can then immediately engage in melee! Will and that into the post.

    ricmorn said:

    I don't get what is meant by "exhausted fast in melee". Fatigue gain is standard across all units barring fatigue immune and campaign buffs. Unless he's hitting people in melee and shooting at the same time ( by which I mean hitting someone AND shooting them at the same time) he should get the same standard fatigue gain as every other unit. Fatigue rate in melee is 20, so it takes a little over 2 minutes for a unit to be exhausted in melee. This isn't TWW1 either. Shooting fatigues at a rate of 18 per tick. Which is less than melee combat. Shooting while running (18+4) is only 22, so just about 2 minutes.

    I'm not sure what's with the obsession with Immune to Vigor, but I'm fairly certain that ignoring a core mechanic of the game isn't something that's thrown about willy-nilly. Waystalker "gets tired at the same rate as everyone else" could be a downside for every unit bar Centigors or Grail Knight. Item based buffs maybe, but I don't know the pickrate or effectiveness of the Waystalker myself, so I don't even know if he's horrifically bad by CA's metrics or just doesn't hold up in the expectations of some.


    Well, yea, may be I asked a bit too much here, but WS getting exhausted while shooting is pretty bad. First of all, he starts shooting more slowly and misses more. Then, when he's out of ammo, you either need to wait for him to regain vigor(and let's be honest here, you can wait like this mostly against Dwarfs) or just throw him in the battle just hoping for a dozen more kills.

    As of his popularity, I've personally almost never use him in multiplayer both in WH1(after AoK nerf) and in WH2 I've seen him used only once for lord-caster sniping squad. Unlike a Khanite assassin, which is a rare, but somewhat popular pick.
    MTech said:

    Would be nice if other range heroes could be brought up to WS lvl before you give him god status, there is no reason for this hero to get immune to vigor and he already ignores shields if you use his stalk and speed.

    Ignore shield would be something the Master engineer could really profit from which is even without skills just as expensive (don´t really know if he' s still 750gold i dont even look at him anymore) as the WS and not really usefull even with skills.

    Yea, just tested, WS indeed does not care about shields as in seems. His arrows are more like artillery rounds x)

    And the thing about other ranged heroes...

    Witch Hunter has only 90 range, but he shoots fast, has a huge AP DPS, plus unlimited Accusation along with some other pretty decent items. And his basic version is 100 gold cheaper than a WS. He's way better that WS at sniping lord-heroes at range.

    Khanite Assasin has even lower range, low armour, but he has overwhelming DPS both in range and in melee, amazing abilities, poison, and, if you send some melee troops against him, he can use a breath attack on them, if DE player is paying attention. Pretty solid, if somewhat expensive, unit.

    Master Engineer is perhaps the weakest of all them, that's true. But even he has a decent breath attack, and some very solid buffs with no charge limits, meaning you can cast them through the whole battle.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users
    edited December 7

    MTech said:

    Because shooting from flanks with a ME is something possible?

    So you agree with me when i say a stalking unit does not need even more advantages?
    I mean shield ignore on a invisible unit yeah sure sucks and is only for bad players and has nothing to with how now you can just stand right with your troops without fear of getting caught.

    Yes and no its not about stalking unit getting more advantages, its about the unit being worth its cost in gold. waystalker is trash now so either give him some abilities or reduce his cost from 700 to about 550.

    ME has other issues, he needs to start with skills of CD for one and either reduced cost or other incentives to see him get picked.

    Ignore shields is good on waystalker because it promotes play from lower skill players yet leaves him in the same state of power for higher skilled players.

    Once again,
    "Yea, just tested, WS indeed does not care about shields as in seems. His arrows are more like artillery rounds x)"

    So this change would be completely pointless, unless I do not understand the data right.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    Zeblasky said:

    MTech said:

    Because shooting from flanks with a ME is something possible?

    So you agree with me when i say a stalking unit does not need even more advantages?
    I mean shield ignore on a invisible unit yeah sure sucks and is only for bad players and has nothing to with how now you can just stand right with your troops without fear of getting caught.

    Yes and no its not about stalking unit getting more advantages, its about the unit being worth its cost in gold. waystalker is trash now so either give him some abilities or reduce his cost from 700 to about 550.

    ME has other issues, he needs to start with skills of CD for one and either reduced cost or other incentives to see him get picked.

    Ignore shields is good on waystalker because it promotes play from lower skill players yet leaves him in the same state of power for higher skilled players.

    Once again,
    "Yea, just tested, WS indeed does not care about shields as in seems. His arrows are more like artillery rounds x)"

    So this change would be completely pointless.
    I had his arrows blocked plenty of times so maybe some bug at the moment?
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users



    I had his arrows blocked plenty of times so maybe some bug at the moment?

    Okay, I've tested it a bit better... and it's a pretty funny thing:
    His arrows do get blocked by shields. BUT if you hit an infantry unit, you usually hit multiple units at once. Some of them block his arrow with their shields, some don't. Meaning, that if you usually expect 7 models to die, he kills just 2 or 3.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    Zeblasky said:



    I had his arrows blocked plenty of times so maybe some bug at the moment?

    Okay, I've tested it a bit better... and it's a pretty funny thing:
    His arrows do get blocked by shields. BUT if you hit an infantry unit, you usually hit multiple units at once. Some of them block his arrow with their shields, some don't. Meaning, that if you usually expect 7 models to die, he kills just 2 or 3.
    Unless the first one blocks it, id say his penetration could be nerfed a bit in addition to other buffs.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users



    Unless the first one blocks it, id say his penetration could be nerfed a bit in addition to other buffs.

    No-no-no, his penetration is what could make him good and unique unit - anti infantry(blob) at range, anti lord/hero in melee. I want to expand this, not simplify.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 421Registered Users
    AoK needs to be buffed IMO. It is the WE only form of artillery, that said it also needs to break stalk.

    I don't see foe seeker as a worth wild change, if speed was all that valuable people would be taking the potion of speed.
  • MTechMTech Posts: 96Registered Users
    If AoK is fixed he would be perfectly fine in case of range hero there aren`t any better ones, no need to buff the top of the bunch.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users

    AoK needs to be buffed IMO. It is the WE only form of artillery, that said it also needs to break stalk.

    I don't see foe seeker as a worth wild change, if speed was all that valuable people would be taking the potion of speed.

    It's not just speed, it's speed + Vigor regeneration. And potion has only 1 charge, foe seeker has no chargers.
    MTech said:

    If AoK is fixed he would be perfectly fine in case of range hero there aren`t any better ones, no need to buff the top of the bunch.

    AoK was fine in WH1. Almost no one took WS anyway.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 421Registered Users
    Zeblasky said:



    AoK was fine in WH1. Almost no one took WS anyway.

    It wasn't cause it didn't break stalk. I can't express enough how frustrating it is to deal with enemy artillery that can fire with out any risk of retaliation. Same statement could be applied to the Gladdy due to her mobility.

    The entire artillery skirmish phase is voided by the Waystalkers stalk and gladies mobility. This either needs to be corrected or AoK can't be strong.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 71Registered Users

    Zeblasky said:



    AoK was fine in WH1. Almost no one took WS anyway.

    It wasn't cause it didn't break stalk. I can't express enough how frustrating it is to deal with enemy artillery that can fire with out any risk of retaliation. Same statement could be applied to the Gladdy due to her mobility.

    The entire artillery skirmish phase is voided by the Waystalkers stalk and gladies mobility. This either needs to be corrected or AoK can't be strong.
    To be fair, I don't really care about it. Okay, sure, let WS be spotted for 4 seconds when launching AoK. Decent players can already track huge green arrows from where they were launched and during that time you won't deal much damage to WS anyway.
  • irurobinirurobin Posts: 1,497Registered Users

    Map-wide missile damage / accuracy buff will do.

    The most effective but most stupid way of buffing it : Net
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 560Registered Users
    No more nets!

    If any more nets are added, I will personally book a flight to UK, go to CA offices, tie all employees up and force them to sit through all four Twilight movies.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 1,121Registered Users
    That's not ok Sarmatians, merely tying them up is not nearly poetic enough. You need restrain them with actual nets.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 560Registered Users
    Thought of that, but it would be hard get such a big net. Anyway, I've just realized there are 5 Twilight films, that's a harsh punishment indeed.

    On topic, I can say that I confirmed what Rejzel said:

    Hawkish Precision does not work. Neither on Waystalkers nor Waywatchers.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 1,121Registered Users
    Still??? God?
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • KaedrinKaedrin Posts: 12Registered Users
    edited December 9
    Bake in swiftshiver (2 projectiles) or 100% AP and remove Hawkish Precision. 2 projectiles would still leave it mostly normal damage (2/3ish) but still give a threat increase. Ammo boost from 30 to 40 like the HE/DE lords too.
  • BlissBliss Posts: 338Registered Users
    And just fix his aiming issue when he's on top of a hill (missing a target for something like 40m is pretty ridiculous for an elite WE archer, huh ?)
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