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some HE changes maybe

MerarchesMerarches Registered Users Posts: 461
Hey,

First,i mostly play MP and want the changes mainly for this. would like to see some changes at some units. i know they are strong and i didnt want to make them more stronger, jsut buff some units for more variations.

1. The Loremaster looks overpriced for me. without any skill/ability/spells/items i have to pay 1000 for him. His skill and abilitys have a fair price but the price without anything looks to much. Maybe thats the raeson why i never see him in QB. But his spell selction looks fine too.
And why he dont have martial mastery? ( same for Tyrion) Loremasters are they guys who make most training for combat^^

2.noble maybe need a very small buff or cost reduction. And his items looks realy bad to me. And why he dont have AP when he is mounted on a eagle?

3. Teclis. all fine so far. But why he dont have the option for an unbarded steed, like the regular mages?

4. The Ellyrian Reavers looks overpriced too for their stats and compared of the DE light cav. Surprised i see the often in MP, but they rarely do a good work.

5. Silverhelms feels way to weak, specialy when u have an option for dragonprinces. They remember me a bit at the VC black knight cav. Maybe a little buff that makes them more schockcav. would be nice. And change dragonprinces that they are faster and have a bit lwoer meelestats.

And the boltthrower ( including DE ) the singleshot is ok for the price, but the multishot is very inaccurate and spread to much. And the angle looks why tho high, for single and multyshot.

Think this changes would make them realy stronger, but give more variations of HE armys.

And yes i know there are some broken thinks in this rooster ( double stardragon +2 net and so ) . would be realy nice it would be changend too.

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,886
    Of all of these I can only really agree the silver helms are a bit mediocre. Though that's partly in comparison to dragon princes.

    Teclis doesn't get a fast horse because he needs a weakness to make him interesting.

    Loremaster is a good deal if he's the only Mage you take. You get a strong hero and Mage in one and save points for elsewhere.

    Light cav have a great charge bonus.

    Bolt throwers are an all around decent package when you need AP ranged.
  • VistahmVistahm Registered Users Posts: 135
    I am basically a high elf player, and my suggestions to improve the current HE roster are

    -Silverhems are useless, they do not deal any damage, just die when they charge . They need a +10 or 12 charge bonus. At least this way they would do something.

    -Regular prince abilities and items suck. The dark princess of DE has much better abilities.

    -Loremaster: Only useful to kill dwarfs characters, but in this role a noble in a chariot is way better, so why put him in a build?. Need at least a price reduction of 100.

    -Ithilmar chariots are way overpriced. Need a price reduction of 100 gold.

    -Phoenixes and eagles attack animations suck. A change would be nice.

    -Swormasters need a 50 price decrease and that the underserved nerf they received when mortal empires came out be reverted. All factions have many ways to deal with this unit.


    Of course what HE really need is their complete roster as soon as possible.

    I Wish shadow warriors come with Tk dlc, they would be really useful against greenskins.





  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Yeah sorry totally disagree with this, the only thing i do agree on is that i feel all generic lords should get good items and abilities to be worth taking over LL, as for teclis he needs nerfs not buffs.

    Nobles on horses are very good and seem balanced.

    Reavers are really good for their price also

    SH are weak due to how strong DP's are but a slight +6 CB could be a decent buff to them.

    Bolt throwers are very good rite now.

    HE mount mount options should be looked at also when compared to WE ones (elven steed HE 150, elven steed WE 200, same for dragons).

    High Elves are a bit too strong at the moment but I DO feel its important to make all units viable within a roster so i'm open to debating (btw im a elf fan so im not against buffs at all, just my priority is balance).

    First thing that should be looked at in my view is which units are always used and which ones are hardly used, i feel LSG are overused so are dragon princes where as Chariots and eagles are hardly ever used and neither is frost phenix.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,886

    Yeah sorry totally disagree with this, the only thing i do agree on is that i feel all generic lords should get good items and abilities to be worth taking over LL, as for teclis he needs nerfs not buffs.

    Nobles on horses are very good and seem balanced.

    Reavers are really good for their price also

    SH are weak due to how strong DP's are but a slight +6 CB could be a decent buff to them.

    Bolt throwers are very good rite now.

    HE mount mount options should be looked at also when compared to WE ones (elven steed HE 150, elven steed WE 200, same for dragons).

    High Elves are a bit too strong at the moment but I DO feel its important to make all units viable within a roster so i'm open to debating (btw im a elf fan so im not against buffs at all, just my priority is balance).

    First thing that should be looked at in my view is which units are always used and which ones are hardly used, i feel LSG are overused so are dragon princes where as Chariots and eagles are hardly ever used and neither is frost phenix.

    Your use statistics you observe depend on what faction you're playing ;)

    Otherwise agree with you lotus.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    I do try to not be too focused on just Wood elf maych up in a generic buff/nerf thread. My observation was more from me using HE's and those are my avoid and to go units.
  • KranoxKranox Registered Users Posts: 1,717
    edited January 11
    Vistahm said:

    I am basically a high elf player, and my suggestions to improve the current HE roster are

    -Silverhems are useless, they do not deal any damage, just die when they charge . They need a +10 or 12 charge bonus. At least this way they would do something.

    -Regular prince abilities and items suck. The dark princess of DE has much better abilities.

    -Loremaster: Only useful to kill dwarfs characters, but in this role a noble in a chariot is way better, so why put him in a build?. Need at least a price reduction of 100.

    -Ithilmar chariots are way overpriced. Need a price reduction of 100 gold.

    -Phoenixes and eagles attack animations suck. A change would be nice.

    -Swormasters need a 50 price decrease and that the underserved nerf they received when mortal empires came out be reverted. All factions have many ways to deal with this unit.


    Of course what HE really need is their complete roster as soon as possible.

    I Wish shadow warriors come with Tk dlc, they would be really useful against greenskins.





    Wowowowow nope nope nope, sorry, but SM are extremely powerfull at what they do, HE are already in the OP category of faction, we dont need swordmaster to get better and cheaper nah nah nah

    The rest im ok with it, but SM nah nah nah

    Dwarf player
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,461
    Complaining about silver helms. Lol obviously never heard of empire knights.

    Lore aster could easily use a -$300 still doesnt make him attractive at all considering what u can get with those prices in he army.

    No frikking idea how ppl play their reavers, no light cav have such insane stats in the game.

    How tyrion and lore not get the strongest martial mastery is mind blowing

    Rest r so trivial not even bothered.

    All the addressed issues pretty non issue

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  • PrayPray Registered Users Posts: 1,332
    Loremaster is campaign stuff with out buff he win vs all lord
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 975
    I main as HE and I have to say I disagree on most points there in the OP.

    HE has all the tools in the world against low armor and a bit limited options against armor. Thus, the main focus would be to first complete the roster with Sisters and shadow warriors, and perhaps that lion chariot and whatnot. Perhaps access to more lores of magic would be in theme as well, certainly could help on the lack of AP bit.

    Now, because of this, HE are OP versus WE and VC (because of deficits in the VC roster in this case) I'd say, and struggles a bit vs GS, DW, WoC imho. Apart from this I think that more or less every single unit in the roster is useful, there is very little dead weight. Only exceptions are light armored archers (why exist?) and to some extent silver helms (especially w/o shields), but they are more redundant than bad.

    Based on this I'd just support a few minor tweaks to HE to improve diversity.

    1. Silver helms are redundant, they are just a cheaper and worse variant of Dragon princes, and Reavers are so much more cost effective as light cav. Mediocre. I'd like to give them a role, perhaps by giving them a buff to speed and a minor charge bonus, like +4 or so, that could help them as skirmisher hunters possibly. Otherwise I have no idea how to make them interesting. Bonus vs infantry perhaps? What the roster lacks is bonus vs large cav but I can't see that it's in theme for the SHs.

    2. Chariots are not bad, possibly a bit too squishy, so a minor health buff might be in order?

    3. Fire phoenix. This one I don't like the random proc thing. I'd prefer if the proc always happen but is weaker, so I'd suggest proc 100% of the time but reborn phoenix is a summoned unit with half health that degrades over time. That's over all a nerf so a minor cost decrease may be warranted in that case. Ideally it would be cool i the reborn version had it's own model, being more like the fiery conv spell model (a creature of pure fire) and perhaps have different stats all together. That would be cool.

    4. Bolt thrower, I feel the multishot needs tweaking.

    5. Nerfs to Tempest, Nets, Prey, Warpgale, Effigy. This is a separate topic but I feel all these abilities needs tweaking to make them less of click and delete things. If this happens, faction balance will be greatly affected. EMP, HE and WE are quite dependent on these things at the very least. Some matchups, like HE vs VC would be completely different with a less potent Tempest.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,886

    I main as HE and I have to say I disagree on most points there in the OP.

    HE has all the tools in the world against low armor and a bit limited options against armor. Thus, the main focus would be to first complete the roster with Sisters and shadow warriors, and perhaps that lion chariot and whatnot. Perhaps access to more lores of magic would be in theme as well, certainly could help on the lack of AP bit.

    Now, because of this, HE are OP versus WE and VC (because of deficits in the VC roster in this case) I'd say, and struggles a bit vs GS, DW, WoC imho. Apart from this I think that more or less every single unit in the roster is useful, there is very little dead weight. Only exceptions are light armored archers (why exist?) and to some extent silver helms (especially w/o shields), but they are more redundant than bad.

    Based on this I'd just support a few minor tweaks to HE to improve diversity.

    1. Silver helms are redundant, they are just a cheaper and worse variant of Dragon princes, and Reavers are so much more cost effective as light cav. Mediocre. I'd like to give them a role, perhaps by giving them a buff to speed and a minor charge bonus, like +4 or so, that could help them as skirmisher hunters possibly. Otherwise I have no idea how to make them interesting. Bonus vs infantry perhaps? What the roster lacks is bonus vs large cav but I can't see that it's in theme for the SHs.

    2. Chariots are not bad, possibly a bit too squishy, so a minor health buff might be in order?

    3. Fire phoenix. This one I don't like the random proc thing. I'd prefer if the proc always happen but is weaker, so I'd suggest proc 100% of the time but reborn phoenix is a summoned unit with half health that degrades over time. That's over all a nerf so a minor cost decrease may be warranted in that case. Ideally it would be cool i the reborn version had it's own model, being more like the fiery conv spell model (a creature of pure fire) and perhaps have different stats all together. That would be cool.

    4. Bolt thrower, I feel the multishot needs tweaking.

    5. Nerfs to Tempest, Nets, Prey, Warpgale, Effigy. This is a separate topic but I feel all these abilities needs tweaking to make them less of click and delete things. If this happens, faction balance will be greatly affected. EMP, HE and WE are quite dependent on these things at the very least. Some matchups, like HE vs VC would be completely different with a less potent Tempest.

    Good points but no buff to chariots please. High elves can heal them which brings chariots to a whole new level.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 3,357
    HE is my 2nd faction. I only agree with Teclis, lore master and Noble. Rest I disagree.
  • MerarchesMerarches Registered Users Posts: 461
    maybe my reavers bug to much when they charge. They often have hard times vs lightunits and archers.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,359
    eumaies said:

    I main as HE and I have to say I disagree on most points there in the OP.

    HE has all the tools in the world against low armor and a bit limited options against armor. Thus, the main focus would be to first complete the roster with Sisters and shadow warriors, and perhaps that lion chariot and whatnot. Perhaps access to more lores of magic would be in theme as well, certainly could help on the lack of AP bit.

    Now, because of this, HE are OP versus WE and VC (because of deficits in the VC roster in this case) I'd say, and struggles a bit vs GS, DW, WoC imho. Apart from this I think that more or less every single unit in the roster is useful, there is very little dead weight. Only exceptions are light armored archers (why exist?) and to some extent silver helms (especially w/o shields), but they are more redundant than bad.

    Based on this I'd just support a few minor tweaks to HE to improve diversity.

    1. Silver helms are redundant, they are just a cheaper and worse variant of Dragon princes, and Reavers are so much more cost effective as light cav. Mediocre. I'd like to give them a role, perhaps by giving them a buff to speed and a minor charge bonus, like +4 or so, that could help them as skirmisher hunters possibly. Otherwise I have no idea how to make them interesting. Bonus vs infantry perhaps? What the roster lacks is bonus vs large cav but I can't see that it's in theme for the SHs.

    2. Chariots are not bad, possibly a bit too squishy, so a minor health buff might be in order?

    3. Fire phoenix. This one I don't like the random proc thing. I'd prefer if the proc always happen but is weaker, so I'd suggest proc 100% of the time but reborn phoenix is a summoned unit with half health that degrades over time. That's over all a nerf so a minor cost decrease may be warranted in that case. Ideally it would be cool i the reborn version had it's own model, being more like the fiery conv spell model (a creature of pure fire) and perhaps have different stats all together. That would be cool.

    4. Bolt thrower, I feel the multishot needs tweaking.

    5. Nerfs to Tempest, Nets, Prey, Warpgale, Effigy. This is a separate topic but I feel all these abilities needs tweaking to make them less of click and delete things. If this happens, faction balance will be greatly affected. EMP, HE and WE are quite dependent on these things at the very least. Some matchups, like HE vs VC would be completely different with a less potent Tempest.

    Good points but no buff to chariots please. High elves can heal them which brings chariots to a whole new level.
    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,461
    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

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  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,359
    yst said:

    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

    It is only 100 cheaper then the gorebeast chariot, who has AP; bigger mass and fear.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 372
    TeNoSkill said:

    yst said:

    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

    It is only 100 cheaper then the gorebeast chariot, who has AP; bigger mass and fear.
    And no heal...
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,359

    TeNoSkill said:

    yst said:

    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

    It is only 100 cheaper then the gorebeast chariot, who has AP; bigger mass and fear.
    And no heal...
    Which means you have either to get the chariots bogged down or waste an heal alone on them. Also chariots are reall micron intense and that should be calculated.

  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,222
    edited January 12
    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    yst said:

    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

    It is only 100 cheaper then the gorebeast chariot, who has AP; bigger mass and fear.
    And no heal...
    Which means you have either to get the chariots bogged down or waste an heal alone on them. Also chariots are reall micron intense and that should be calculated.

    All chariots are micro intensive though.Its not something unique to the HE chariots.And wether the heals on them is a waste or not is kinda irrelevant .HE chariots have that choice(well not the chariots themeselves obviously :p )Chaos chariots do not.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,359
    GalenHHH said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    yst said:

    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

    It is only 100 cheaper then the gorebeast chariot, who has AP; bigger mass and fear.
    And no heal...
    Which means you have either to get the chariots bogged down or waste an heal alone on them. Also chariots are reall micron intense and that should be calculated.

    All chariots are micro intensive though.Its not something unique to the HE chariots.And wether the heals on them is a waste or not is kinda irrelevant .HE chariots have that choice(well not the chariots themeselves obviously :p )Chaos chariots do not.
    And I didn t suggest big changes to them other then price decreases by 50g
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,556

    TeNoSkill said:

    yst said:

    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

    It is only 100 cheaper then the gorebeast chariot, who has AP; bigger mass and fear.
    And no heal...
    And your point is?

    Healing it costs woms, if you are using them for healing you are not using them for other things. So, i don't really see what kind of argument is that when comparing chariots.

    In any lore of magic is currently OP, nerfs should be called for it, instead of using it in relation to completely unrelated things.

    Having said that, ithilmar chariot looks bad when compared to gorebeast chariot. But it looks awesome when compared to the greenskins' boar chariot, for the same price difference.








  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,886
    Pocman said:


    TeNoSkill said:

    yst said:

    TeNoSkill said:


    How often do you see Ithilmar or Tiranoc chariots except against Dwarves?

    Oh the chariot archers get used a lot, by me for a start. triple magic arrow, yes pls. Dmg output isnt that low really, and obviously the after ammo combat power with anti inf.

    The melee one not too sure abt that one, prolly overglorified

    It is only 100 cheaper then the gorebeast chariot, who has AP; bigger mass and fear.
    And no heal...
    And your point is?

    Healing it costs woms, if you are using them for healing you are not using them for other things. So, i don't really see what kind of argument is that when comparing chariots.

    In any lore of magic is currently OP, nerfs should be called for it, instead of using it in relation to completely unrelated things.

    Having said that, ithilmar chariot looks bad when compared to gorebeast chariot. But it looks awesome when compared to the greenskins' boar chariot, for the same price difference.








    Yeah so first of all it would be ok if some races had slightly better chariots than others. That doesn't make the he chariot bad at its role or in its roster.

    But on the heal front heals are much more valuable for low entity units, and if chariots are what you need to win the fight they are mobile enough to wheel out and into the aoe of a heal spell.

    Triple shaggoths with heal? Yeah that would be a leg up. Let's not pretend heal is randomly distributed across the races. I'd much prefer you heal your dragons than your shaggoths.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 372
    Wow really? Complaints about heal when used on chariots is a waste? lolwut?
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