Bretonnia, Empire And Chaos in Warhammer 2

Ondjage

So it's come to my attention that some people generally still believe that Empire and Bretonnia are fine and are trying to defend against a possible patch aimed at improving these factions. I've added chaos into this aswell as some of their cav and infantry got the same problems now as their empire and bretonnian counterparts.

At the end of warhammer 1 Empire, bretonnia and chaos were considered the strongest factions in the game they still had weaknesses but their overall strenght was uncontested compared to the other races, but one "patch" (or in this case game change later) and now these 3 factions are considered the worst by far. (Bretonnia, empire and chaos in that order of "weakness") Why is that;

Well there are several reasons to why this happened: The overall game change to increase hp of all units affected most other races better as Empire and bretonnia didnt have grindy units to begin with, they all mostly relied on their charge bonus to kill others and the effect of that is now reduced because of the increase to HP pools which favours grindy units more.

This means in effect that all infantry units for both the bretonnian and empire roster got worse in a hearthbeat and it also affected some of the variants of chaos warriors and marauders.

So what about the other warhammer 1 races? Im just gonna make some examples here as i dont want to go into every warhammer 1 faction in detail.

Well beastmen bestigors got increases to model size which made them into a killing machine and most other beastmen units are grindy by nature and the faction as a whole got a lot of other changes that impacted them in a positive way, (cygors and all centigors as an example) and they are now the only truly viable old faction against the new warhammer 2 factions.

Several wood elf units got changes, wardancers and dryads are now very good units and the spears are grindy by nature and thus didnt really lose or benefit much from the change.
The wild riders are now slightly worse against low armour, but they seem more balanced now as they were slightly too good in game 1. The wood elves overall are now more powerfull then ever but they still lack a little when it comes to dealing with the warhammer 2 factions.

Greenskins have mostly grindy units by nature and have high hp pools so their units still do ok even though they cant match up to their warhammer 2 counterparts. (but then again only beastmen can)


So what about empire and bretonnia?

Infantry

For infantry the empire Flagellants are terrible now and are barely able to even trade with any unit in their price range, greatswords are slower then dwarves and have no killing power against any other AP unit even though they cost more then several of them. Swordsmen have never been good but you can chevron them up to help although this is a mediocre solution at best and spearmen are more of a meat shield.
The change to Ranged behaviour is also very bad for all empire direct fire and artillery units as they just bug out completely and walk towards their target even with guard mode. The steam tank getting affected by vigor (and taking vigor damage without actually doing anything except existing) is also a major problem as it was terrible at grinding before but now because of the armour loss its just useless.

In effect no empire infantry unit is worth taking anymore.

For bretonnia their men at arms are just pure meat shields now as they cant even remotely kill anything, the 600 battle pilgrims seem more like empire swords in their mediocracy and Foot squires are utterly useless because of their low stats now that grinding is more prevalent.

Cavalry:

Empire cav is now fraught with mediocracy, even the demigryphs which used to be one of the best anti large units in the game is now ok at best and struggles hard to lock down and deal damage to any monster unless they get a full surround which never happens unless your opponent doesnt pay attention. All their cavalry types which used to be a very solid choice now outright lose to most units of the same type, the reason for this is that they get exhausted before they are able to actually kill anything, which slows them down and reduces their armour so that they die faster at the hands of infantry.


Bretonnian Cav has some of the same problem although less then their empire counterparts as they did not rely as heavily on their armour. But as their empire counterparts it does seem like cav has a tendancy to get stuck more easily then before and this really hurts the bretonnian cav as they get murdered when they stop. The punishment for AP damage getting affected by vigor also hurt the questing knights greatly and obviosuly the increase to HP made the charge bonus variants like grails, Kotr and Errant worse as they now require more charges to deal their intended damage.

Bretonnia also has another issue which has hurt them greatly, Royal peg knights, Peg knights and Royal hippo knights struggle greatly to get any affect of their aerial charge. If you charge the pegs into a single monster at most 2-4 models will actually land on the target to deal damage most of the others just derp around and then slowly walk to their target.
The pegs seem like some of the weakest units in the bretonnian roster for their cost now and it hurts the bretonnian immensly because they rely heavily on them to kill monsters (which the bretonnians are now completely unable to do)

The royal hippos are good at killing infantry, but against monsters that they should in theory be good at killing looking at their profiles they struggle mightly, a bonus vs Large is probably warranted on these guys as right now the bretonnian roster has no way to kill large monsters with armour.

The only reason i have not mentioned Chaos in this part is because they still have the shaggoths keeping the roster together, but chaos infantry and cav is now mediocre compared to what they were and what they are supposed to be which is some of the best infantry in the game for their costs.

In my personal view the best ways to fix these problems are:

Any monster or War machine that has high armour should have bigger hit boxes so that they are less proficient at pushing units away and that they take more damage from the sources that attack them. Or you could reduce their speed and armour values so that they are "easier" to catch and cause damage to.
Carnosaurs, Kholek(shaggoths), Doomwheels, the Skaven bells and Dark elf Cauldron all spring to mind when i think about this. (the Arachnarok Spider is perhaps the best referance i have to a fair monster of this type even though she is imo slightly overpriced)

Most infantry and cav from all factions that were heavily reliant on charge bonus to win fights need Stat reworks or increased damage to make up for the hp increases across the board

Fatigue "damage" needs to be slowed down so that units dont get exhausted as quickly or reduce the penalties for fatigue especially aimed at AP damage and armour. The overall game pace has increased more then enough with the hp increase.

And lastly as a personal side note: There is a reason why nobody takes empire, bretonnia or chaos in tournaments anymore and why their quick battle win rates are in the dumpster. Its because the factions just dont work with the game pace.

With Regards Ondjage

Lord_Nathanael#8065

pretty good analysis, but its a bit late, the next patch is probably allready in QA and bigger changes than +1 to this or -2 to that wont be done I guess.
unless of course for the next patch in about 2 months.

that said, Ato said and hinted quite a bit about some of the things mentioned here over the last few months. So its safe to assume that some improvements are imminent

yst#1879

Wait for 2weeks,. Basically the changes will be too much by then, otmb kings and a whole lot of other balance changes. Too close to patch i doubt anything we post will ever be taken into considerations

All their power units r seriously like 750-1k overpriced at current useless stage, steam tanks, luminark, useless greenknight etc, but of coz no one gonna acknowledge it, its just far too late now those two races r beyond repair. Overpriced uselss pilgrims, squires etc, the entire faction is so broken. Worthless men at arms.

There always gonna be obselete races with so many factions. Bound to happen so dont worry too much abt it.

Pippington#5795

I agree with everything in this post except the following:

Ondjage said:

most other beastmen units are grindy by nature

[...]

Greenskins have mostly grindy units by nature

Beastmen and Greenskin infantry are some of the most charge-dependent infantry in the game. Empire (and Bret) infantry are some of the least charge-dependent (excluding dwarfs). I think the relevance of diminished charge effectiveness for the human factions is almost entirely to do with their reliance on cav.



Overall I respect the reasons for CA's rebalancing of the game pace (when there were so many comments about the fast pace of WH1) but I think it's a pity that they did on such a tight schedule without appreciating how much it would throw the previous year's worth of faction balancing out of whack.

KhorneFlakes

important distinction chaos was good at end of total war not before,as far as being bottom of the barrel chaos is the faction that has spent the most time,before norsca patch for more than 1 year

Aside from that here is some thing people are not noticing

Both empires and bret had been top in wh1 due to cycle charging,cheap gryphon mounts in wh1,and not to mention they could just fly over your lien and terror route which doesn't works anymore

For all the talk of magic is better,the actual usefull spells are eve narrower,mainly hex spells aren't that great
So lore attribute of big waaagh and little waaaagh had impact on gs performance even though most of their stuff is similar and just shuffled around as far as army combined arm goes

also like ondjage mentioned fatigue changes are the real killer her units seem to tire faster and chaos,empire and bret get blunt of that changes,dwarfs too but they seem get tired less

Lastly,i would like foot squires to be better vs non-heavy units light units and less better vs armored units ,wh2 only confirms the flaw in design we thought in wh1

i guess its figure of speech or just exaggeration but saying battle pilgrims are like empire swords men isn't true and ment-at arms shield were too cost effective in wh1 but they should equal empire swords men,haven't tested in wh2

i think you don't know ondjage but bret infantry actually got the lowest hp increase,which is the main culprit here,i guess it made sense seeing how cost effective they were in game 1 but i bet ca didn't expect mechanics changes the way they were anticipating and bret got double pounded

and and cav in general struggle more too due to increase mass of units ,and increase hp

https://youtube.com/watch?v=4JXppWomJnE


Skip to the part where he test reiksguard its same for other cavs too like gk,chaos knights,empire knights,blood knights..etc
look how reiksgaurd performed vs executioners like wth..??

All in all pretty much agreed just wanted to expand on things a little people are overlooking in addition to what you said

cheers

KhorneFlakes

Pippington said:

I agree with everything in this post except the following:

Ondjage said:

most other beastmen units are grindy by nature

[...]

Greenskins have mostly grindy units by nature

Beastmen and Greenskin infantry are some of the most charge-dependent infantry in the game. Empire (and Bret) infantry are some of the least charge-dependent (excluding dwarfs). I think the relevance of diminished charge effectiveness for the human factions is almost entirely to do with their reliance on cav.

yup,but greenskin and beatmen unit got other buffs to compensate that so they didn't got hit hard
now the things that is actually affecting empire,bret and chaos most is the attack interval chagnes and Vigor changes
as well as these factions generally want battles to be over quick,rather than long pace,i think that is what ondjage is trying to refer too

Pippington#5795

Beastmen and Greenskins also want battles to be over quickly. Any battle with Greenskins that goes long you can bet that either the whole Greenskin army has run off + had to be regrouped at least once, or else they're fighting dwarfs.

CA_Duck#1876

Ondjage said:

And lastly as a personal side note: There is a reason why nobody takes empire, bretonnia or chaos in tournaments anymore and why their quick battle win rates are in the dumpster. Its because the factions just dont work with the game pace.

With Regards Ondjage

I wouldn't put Chaos in the same bracket as Empire and Bretonnia. Empire and Bretonnia struggle against every faction. In terms of metrics Chaos is a good match for most factions and are comparable to Greenskins in performance. They're just hamstrung in competitive play due to clearly struggling against Beastmen and Dark Elves, which seem to be dominant picks in the current tournament meta.

Bordiga

Vey good post, I pretty much agree with you. Of course there is a "but" a big but in fact.

I will try to explain.

Well I started playing warhammer fantasy since the last days of 5eth, when I had like 11 years old, till the present. The thing is that i have a very good knowdledge of warhammer lore and tabletop rules, and i think you are not taking into account this factor in an important point of your post.
Empire and Bretonian infantry units are not suppose to be good (greatswords included).
In fact they were pretty lame in TT. I mean high elf spearmen or eternal guard were way better than any Empire or bret units. Clanrats had the exact same stats and costed much less(yes they were also overpriced in tabletop).

Great swords were also pretty bad, chaos warriors, white lions, longbeards should always beat this unit. They only need a price drecease of at least 100, and an increase in ld of 3 or 4, cause in tabletop thay had the trait stubborn to hold the line. (this were their thing, hold the line nothing more and less).

The only empire sate unit who needs a buff are crossbowmen. In TT their missiles had the same strength than gunners but without ap, so they need more missile damage (no ap) to match their current cost tag.
Overall empire buff should go to the artillery (hellblaster need a good buff) steam tank... it could be nice if they add the pigeon bombs etc etc..
And demis are still good, they easily beat dragon princes. The thing is that empire players always use the exact same build, and are pretty predictable (the top three of predictable factions, Dwarfs, Empire and Lizardmen). Their cavalry is still pretty good but they always use 1 or 2 units maximun (royal griph).

Chaos state is just painful. In TT Chaos warriors were basically unstoppable killing machines and here they are dissapointing (una mala copia de bazar chino). And surprisingly i do not see any recent chaos thread. Only empire players whining.

Lastly wood elf infantry is in the right spot now. In TT WE infantry was very good (much better than empire infantry), but squishy as it is right now in the game.



Cheers

KhorneFlakes

CA_Duck said:

Ondjage said:

And lastly as a personal side note: There is a reason why nobody takes empire, bretonnia or chaos in tournaments anymore and why their quick battle win rates are in the dumpster. Its because the factions just dont work with the game pace.

With Regards Ondjage

I wouldn't put Chaos in the same bracket as Empire and Bretonnia. Empire and Bretonnia struggle against every faction. In terms of metrics Chaos is a good match for most factions and are comparable to Greenskins in performance. They're just hamstrung in competitive play due to clearly struggling against Beastmen and Dark Elves, which seem to be dominant picks in the current tournament meta.

don't forget internal balancing,chaos and even empire to some extent are faction that needs its most

zer0i

CA_Duck said:

Ondjage said:

And lastly as a personal side note: There is a reason why nobody takes empire, bretonnia or chaos in tournaments anymore and why their quick battle win rates are in the dumpster. Its because the factions just dont work with the game pace.

With Regards Ondjage

I wouldn't put Chaos in the same bracket as Empire and Bretonnia. Empire and Bretonnia struggle against every faction. In terms of metrics Chaos is a good match for most factions and are comparable to Greenskins in performance. They're just hamstrung in competitive play due to clearly struggling against Beastmen and Dark Elves, which seem to be dominant picks in the current tournament meta.

Like Ondjage said they have a lacking roster propped up by Shaggoths, if you took Shaggoths out their win rate would probably fall 40%

Ondjage

CA_Duck said:

Ondjage said:

And lastly as a personal side note: There is a reason why nobody takes empire, bretonnia or chaos in tournaments anymore and why their quick battle win rates are in the dumpster. Its because the factions just dont work with the game pace.

With Regards Ondjage

I wouldn't put Chaos in the same bracket as Empire and Bretonnia. Empire and Bretonnia struggle against every faction. In terms of metrics Chaos is a good match for most factions and are comparable to Greenskins in performance. They're just hamstrung in competitive play due to clearly struggling against Beastmen and Dark Elves, which seem to be dominant picks in the current tournament meta.

i Agree chaos are far better then Empire and Especially bretonnia, but thats also because they have monsters that can carry them, i dont understand this fetish that is going on for large AP monsters with Antilarge, huge hp pools, high speeds and high armour with small tiny hit boxes.

NoSkill4U#6552

I would like to see small buffs across the board for Empire and Bretonnia



Empire:
All statetroops except Greatswords get their leadership up to 64
All statetroops except Greatswords get their armor up to 35
" " " " " " " speed increased to 31
Spearmen without shields get +50 gold price increase

Greatswords get +2 MA/MD;-50g; +2 speed.

Bretonnia:

Men-at arms with shields:

-50g; -5 armor; +4 leadership


Men at arms without shields:

-5 armor; +4 leadership


Men-at arms with polearms:

+2 MA; -50g ; -5 armor

KhorneFlakes

so in my personal testing i did , i can pretty much 100% guarantee ca didn't account for none of the unit hp + attack interval changes ,there are several unit but none unit come to this

Forsaken
they are bad like terrible right now if someone like xiphos says they are trash then devs should listen

so a unit 30+ charge bonus,depends on finishing of the flank units quickly,and is the definition of anti grind

they new changes make way worse at their job of killing this fast due to increase pace of game,their combat performance is way worse due to their very high charge bonus is less effective

considering all this they would buff some other stats to compensate and keep their performance same except the speed nerf

but nooooo they get -2ma,-2cb nerf on top of speed nerf which was justified
plus plus additional +0.2 increase in attack interval to the average increase of 0.5 s in game 2 so they got 0.7 in total from 3.6 to 4.3 and other changes that ato mentioned also don't have any effect on forsaken or shaggoth or other units that got unfair increase in attack interval than usual

and they only got 15% increase in hp compared to 20% of rest

so yes ZERO testing in this regard i am 100% sure.

Ondjage

Vistahm said:

Vey good post, I pretty much agree with you. Of course there is a "but" a big but in fact.

I will try to explain.

Well I started playing warhammer fantasy since the last days of 5eth, when I had like 11 years old, till the present. The thing is that i have a very good knowdledge of warhammer lore and tabletop rules, and i think you are not taking into account this factor in an important point of your post.
Empire and Bretonian infantry units are not suppose to be good (greatswords included).
In fact they were pretty lame in TT. I mean high elf spearmen or eternal guard were way better than any Empire or bret units. Clanrats had the exact same stats and costed much less(yes they were also overpriced in tabletop).

Great swords were also pretty bad, chaos warriors, white lions, longbeards should always beat this unit. They only need a price drecease of at least 100, and an increase in ld of 3 or 4, cause in tabletop thay had the trait stubborn to hold the line. (this were their thing, hold the line nothing more and less).

The only empire sate unit who needs a buff are crossbowmen. In TT their missiles had the same strength than gunners but without ap, so they need more missile damage (no ap) to match their current cost tag.
Overall empire buff should go to the artillery (hellblaster need a good buff) steam tank... it could be nice if they add the pigeon bombs etc etc..
And demis are still good, they easily beat dragon princes. The thing is that empire players always use the exact same build, and are pretty predictable (the top three of predictable factions, Dwarfs, Empire and Lizardmen). Their cavalry is still pretty good but they always use 1 or 2 units maximun (royal griph).

Chaos state is just painful. In TT Chaos warriors were basically unstoppable killing machines and here they are dissapointing (una mala copia de bazar chino). And surprisingly i do not see any recent chaos thread. Only empire players whining.

Lastly wood elf infantry is in the right spot now. In TT WE infantry was very good (much better than empire infantry), but squishy as it is right now in the game.



Cheers

i played dark elves and the abysmal bretonnians for 15 years in tabletop so i do understand tabletop quite well actually, and if we balanced a game from tabletop it would be as broken as the tabletop. You say that empire and bret infantry was poor in TT but i disagree, they were cheap and they held the line for a ling time if you supported them right.

When you make a game you cant just say ok chaos has good inf so they get a 400 cost inf unit that will shred the empire 400 cost inf unit ..... thats not how you get a well balanced game.

You need a certain amount of similarity for cost but slight advantages for sections of the army , so lets say that the 400 cost marauders are more agressive then the empire version and thus does better against other low and cost low armour but does worse in a prolonged grind to show their lack of control and discipline. That is what assymetrical balance is all about.

Its funny that you mention empire players as using the same build, i'd gladly challenge you to play me with your empire to show me the merits of the current army roster........ I've probably played more empire then any other total war player in MP games and i've made countless armies for them and right now they suck..... its that simple. They are as weak as chaos were in patch 1 just with slightly more choices. Empire and bretonnia are weaker then they have ever been and its very sad as empire was one of the best armies to test units against because of their well balanced units in game 1.

eumaies#1128

I agree with ato about chaos being In a different place but definitely agree with ondjages concern about big fast monsters with armor and small hit boxes.

ArchonPrime

eumaies said:

I agree with ato about chaos being In a different place but definitely agree with ondjages concern about big fast monsters with armor and small hit boxes.

That's Duck,not Ato

eumaies#1128

ArchonPrime said:

eumaies said:

I agree with ato about chaos being In a different place but definitely agree with ondjages concern about big fast monsters with armor and small hit boxes.

That's Duck,not Ato

Yup that's who meant whoops.

HSK#4606

Well said. I still play WoC in qb and win good enough. I agree with hit box and maybe more mass so units are properly made (those who aren't properly made yet). I already proposed good changes for Bretonnia and some fixes for Chaos Knights. Empire isn't underpowered, it's players still try to spam great swords so lose to strategic play, who does not remember 8 great swords spam I wonder.

TlaxtlanSoothsayer

I wholeheartedly agree with Ondjage's post. Bretonnia, the Empire and Chaos were considered some of the best factions at the end of of Warhammer 1, but this is no longer the case.

Warhammer 2 is a completely different game with fundamental changes to the battle mechanics. Currently Chaos gets carried by a few good units, Bretonnia and the Empire are simply underwhelming.


Right now Bretonnia and the Empire are possibly the worst factions, these factions aren't competetive in any way: When there are 2 equally skilled players and they don't make any mistakes over the course of the battle, the guy who picks Bretonnia or Empire is going to lose more often than not, especially against certain Warhammer 2 factions.

• Their infanty isn't competetive. State Troops and Men-at-Arms are cheap, but not nearly as useful as they should be. Battle Pilgrims, Greatswords and Squires are borderline useless, I can't recommend these units at all.
  
• The focus on shock cavalry hurts these factions more than others. With the changes to fatigue, hit points, movement, the mass of units and the overall slower battle pace, cavalry forces suffer in Warhammer 2. This obviously hurts Bretonnia the most, but also cripples the Empire.
  
• There are other issues on top of that: Handgunners and Cannons just run into melee, the Steam Tank gets tired the majority of artillery is useless... I'm looking at you Trebuchets and Helfire Rocket Batteries. Bretonnia has no way to deal with armoured monsters, e. g. Lizardmen against Bretonnia is a cakewalk.
  

Last but not least: Chaos.
They're still a decent faction, but the internal balancing is suboptimal and some Chaos units are underperforming in Warhammer 2. In the end Chaos needs some buffs.

• Chaos Knights with lances. They were a really underrated unit in WH1, at least in my opinion. Unfortunately they're either overpriced or too weak in the current game. Outstanding armour and charge bonus make them a great shock cav unit, but with the new battle mechanics they suffer from the same problems as Empire/Bretonnia cav in WH2.
  
• Shaggoths are problematic: Armourpiercing, fast, anti-large, missile resistance and terror make Shaggoths a much better choice than other Chaos units.
  
• Chaos infantry is mediocre: For example Marauder GW are expensive and regular Chaos Warriors aren't nearly as useful as they should be.
  

Sarmatianns#6760

eumaies said:

definitely agree with ondjages concern about big fast monsters with armor and small hit boxes.

I think that everyone agrees with that.

- Look, here's Kroq-Gar on Grymloc. We've given him high HP, good stats, high mass, and he deals a ton anti large and armor piercing damage.
- Not enough, give him more.
- Ok, I guess we can give him an ability to push away all infantry that's attacking him
- More!
- Some physical resistance?
- MORE I SAID!
- For the love of God. Ok, we'll give him a very small, junky hitbox so that he can avoid missiles, but that's it.
- DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR JOB?!
- Ok, ok. He'll have access to free healing several times in a battle.
- See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Now get out of my office.

Empire definitely needs help, and a lot of it. I just don't want to see Empire go back to WH1 days that I've seen many Empire players refer to as "perfectly balanced".

WunderKatze

The fatigue issue is particularly noticeable to me for Empire, I'm always appalled when I take a look and notice that my empire units have already been exhausted while my surrounded foe is merely tired.

KhorneFlakes

CA_Duck said:

Ondjage said:

And lastly as a personal side note: There is a reason why nobody takes empire, bretonnia or chaos in tournaments anymore and why their quick battle win rates are in the dumpster. Its because the factions just dont work with the game pace.

With Regards Ondjage

I wouldn't put Chaos in the same bracket as Empire and Bretonnia. Empire and Bretonnia struggle against every faction. In terms of metrics Chaos is a good match for most factions and are comparable to Greenskins in performance. They're just hamstrung in competitive play due to clearly struggling against Beastmen and Dark Elves, which seem to be dominant picks in the current tournament meta.

also i do hope you understand chaos and gs goo d vs likes of high elves,lizard,wood elves,vc..etc exactly means ok at best not good definitely not great...just a possible concern

Bordiga

i played dark elves and the abysmal bretonnians for 15 years in tabletop so i do understand tabletop quite well actually, and if we balanced a game from tabletop it would be as broken as the tabletop. You say that empire and bret infantry was poor in TT but i disagree, they were cheap and they held the line for a ling time if you supported them right.

When you make a game you cant just say ok chaos has good inf so they get a 400 cost inf unit that will shred the empire 400 cost inf unit ..... thats not how you get a well balanced game.

You need a certain amount of similarity for cost but slight advantages for sections of the army , so lets say that the 400 cost marauders are more agressive then the empire version and thus does better against other low and cost low armour but does worse in a prolonged grind to show their lack of control and discipline. That is what assymetrical balance is all about.

Its funny that you mention empire players as using the same build, i'd gladly challenge you to play me with your empire to show me the merits of the current army roster........ I've probably played more empire then any other total war player in MP games and i've made countless armies for them and right now they suck..... its that simple. They are as weak as chaos were in patch 1 just with slightly more choices. Empire and bretonnia are weaker then they have ever been and its very sad as empire was one of the best armies to test units against because of their well balanced units in game 1.




Of course empire suck. I never put that into question.
And yes you would easily beat me, no doubt about it.

And yes empire players always use the same army (i have to disagree with you here).

Im just saying that developers should be careful with the units they buff, trying always to preserve each faction uniqueness and flavor, and bearing in mind that not all the units are that bad.


In fact this is one of the reasons i hate eight edition, cause all factions started getting big mosters and mostruos cavalry, loosing a lot of their specific flavor.

I agree with you, chaos is basically being carried by Kholek and the shaggoths.

Btw I also played Bretonnia in tabletop along with high elves and skaven:)


Pd :dark elf hydras were insane in 7 edition.

ElectorOfWurttemberg

It's a shame that these post are coming out so late in this patches life. They articulate the many issues a lot of us have been seeing and saying for a while but all in one, well organized, post.

We know we are getting empire/bret buffs next patch, but I hope CA adds some of these points to a notepad document for the one that follows, particularly the hitbox suggestion.

Sarmatianns#6760

I think that pitiful state Empire and Bretonnia are in has been known for quite a while and that almost everybody is aware of it.

NoSkill4U#6552

Check out my thread about Empire and Bretonnia, if you want


https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/206418/empire-balance-feedback-for-patch-1-wh-ii/p1

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/211074/bretonnia-balance-feedback-for-patch-1-wh-ii#latest


I tried to address the most obvious problems.

steam_164510723535UzR61VM

ive mained chaos and empire since day 1 of warhammer 1. Ondjage is 100% right.

infact i would say currently empire is actually even worse than being said here. only thing holding them even remotely together is the net.

only thing holding chaos together is shaggoths.

side note : i would also like to propose a buff to marauder horsemasters or marauder horsemen for chaos. either stats or cost decrease. chaos has absolutely no answer to multiple strong fliers with ranged support.

ArchonPrime

Give Kholek and shaggoth bigger hit box and lower speed,but don't cut their armor,they should be catch and die by what unit that should kill them(like **** elves+DS can,but only they can because madness of khaine is **********right now),that's enough.
About Carnosaurs...I think the problem of their attack animation is bigger than their speed/hit box or even healing

ThibixMagnus#8300

really interesting op, seems to nail most of the issues. It can probably still affect the patch for the easier changes.

For cavalry, it would be interesting to look at why dragon princes are still considered good, maybe their speed to disengage and melee defense makes their charge more forgiving to them, so even if they don't deal a lot of relative damage they can ping pong with ease.

I think the trend to have longer battles is really positive, but it should be focused on longer infantry grinds. CA kept some very fast unit deletion with the breath attacks, so elite cavalry charge could very well be devastating as well. Higher charge bonuses for every cav, higher mass maybe, and less vigour loss for cavalry. I aslo think a temporary morale hit should be added somehow when hit by a powerful charge.

Like Vistahm, I would encourage to insist on faction uniqueness and theme, and look at what's missing from TT that could be of use. I'm constantly worried about homogenization and loss of flavour...

In a game as diverse as tww, cost effectiveness seems a very fuzzy thing to me, so I would understand that bretonnia shouldn't need cost-effective infantry, they should be penalized on that aspect because of their lance and blessing being so good. Real game changers, not the current state. Bretonnia used to have the best ward save in the TT game for core units, better than skaven or savage orcs or dragon princes, in tww it seems everyone has better resistances. Or a faction like the empire who supposedly can do many things doesn't need to have an infantry capable of doing the same as others : I agree greatswords should have really high morale instead of similar stats to other factions. But it also means the strengths of the empire should really be strengths.

Hammer of the witches should be the regular great cannon ! They are supposed to be the bane of anything large, on TT it was simply too risky to invest on a monster that could die before lines met. Just like bretonnia, in 6th edition the heroic killing blow was invented in their book ! Their heroes should be customizable into ultimate monster killers.

Meantime, if pegasi keep the current charge pattern, they should be much more flexible (higher mass to disengage) and durable so they can ping pong over the battlefield where needed without being punished as much as now in every engagement. I also wonder if it is possible to give some air combat bonus to bretonnia, like in the lore of heavens attribute.

ArchonPrime

Sarmatians said:

eumaies said:

definitely agree with ondjages concern about big fast monsters with armor and small hit boxes.

I think that everyone agrees with that.

- Look, here's Kroq-Gar on Grymloc. We've given him high HP, good stats, high mass, and he deals a ton anti large and armor piercing damage.
- Not enough, give him more.
- Ok, I guess we can give him an ability to push away all infantry that's attacking him
- More!
- Some physical resistance?
- MORE I SAID!
- For the love of God. Ok, we'll give him a very small, junky hitbox so that he can avoid missiles, but that's it.
- DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR JOB?!
- Ok, ok. He'll have access to free healing several times in a battle.
- See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Now get out of my office.

Empire definitely needs help, and a lot of it. I just don't want to see Empire go back to WH1 days that I've seen many Empire players refer to as "perfectly balanced".

And their attack/charge animation can make them dance in halberd-_-!