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Btw CA nerfed most old factions CAV MASS,maybe that's one of reason why they're not doing well right now,Grail knights MASS were 1100 in WH1,now is 950,Blood knights were 800,now is 670,can't find CK's because it's been hidden(why) but I think it's been nerf too...and ugh...Wild riders and Dragon prince's MASS are 1100 right now...I mean 85/78 speed with 1100MASS...**** me!(but don't nerf them just buff others for god's sake CA plz)
Sure lots of things must be revisited but lets not get carried away. In the wh1 days I couldnt tell the difference between it and the windows pinball, and pinball is free. The change of pace was what made the game truly TW.
Although personally Id revisit also the whole rock paper scissors approach, it feels a bit extreme in some cases, and it steals form the tactical aspect.
Sure lots of things must be revisited but lets not get carried away. In the wh1 days I couldnt tell the difference between it and the windows pinball, and pinball is free. The change of pace was what made the game truly TW.
Although personally Id revisit also the whole rock paper scissors approach, it feels a bit extreme in some cases, and it steals form the tactical aspect.
Good points.
Yeah higher mass is not welcome. You can balance without exacerbating that.
i played dark elves and the abysmal bretonnians for 15 years in tabletop so i do understand tabletop quite well actually, and if we balanced a game from tabletop it would be as broken as the tabletop. You say that empire and bret infantry was poor in TT but i disagree, they were cheap and they held the line for a ling time if you supported them right.
When you make a game you cant just say ok chaos has good inf so they get a 400 cost inf unit that will shred the empire 400 cost inf unit ..... thats not how you get a well balanced game.
You need a certain amount of similarity for cost but slight advantages for sections of the army , so lets say that the 400 cost marauders are more agressive then the empire version and thus does better against other low and cost low armour but does worse in a prolonged grind to show their lack of control and discipline. That is what assymetrical balance is all about.
Its funny that you mention empire players as using the same build, i'd gladly challenge you to play me with your empire to show me the merits of the current army roster........ I've probably played more empire then any other total war player in MP games and i've made countless armies for them and right now they suck..... its that simple. They are as weak as chaos were in patch 1 just with slightly more choices. Empire and bretonnia are weaker then they have ever been and its very sad as empire was one of the best armies to test units against because of their well balanced units in game 1.
Of course empire suck. I never put that into question. And yes you would easily beat me, no doubt about it.
And yes empire players always use the same army (i have to disagree with you here).
Im just saying that developers should be careful with the units they buff, trying always to preserve each faction uniqueness and flavor, and bearing in mind that not all the units are that bad.
In fact this is one of the reasons i hate eight edition, cause all factions started getting big mosters and mostruos cavalry, loosing a lot of their specific flavor.
I agree with you, chaos is basically being carried by Kholek and the shaggoths.
Btw I also played Bretonnia in tabletop along with high elves and skaven:)
I agree with the posts just the way i see it overall would be to;
Buff empire and Brets slightly (chaos also but, with chaos more of an adjustment instead of flat out buff) while slightly nerfing the tier 1 races.
Overall i feel if Charge Bonus lasted 18 sec up from 15 it would be a good buff game wise to all units that have CB, (of course some units individual CB should be looked at).
It's clear that Warhammer 2 races + BM are ahead of the pack now while Bret/Empire and to a degree VC and Chaos are the weakest races.
So i feel all races should be aimed to be within the level of GS, WE, Dawi.
Certain buff empire/bret threads have some really outrageous ideas that would make them top of the food chain once again, i feel the issues are like stated what ondjage has said just that i would balance out the infantry stage by stage instead of drastic changes to all units.
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
Tbh i dont see any reason using emp and brets when their undead version, tomb kings does things so, so so much better.
Pretty much complete overwrite, want unbreakable demi hal equilvalent, yep got it. Silver shield unbreak undead at arms? Sure do. Undead peasant archers? Sure. Unbreakable mounted yeoman archers? Covered. Nets? We got that too.
They pretty much overwrites the entire bret inf roster, entire roster for that matter except cav and air. But i mean why worry about air when u got ush bow.
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
They got 2 missile cav units of which 1 is AP, they actually super under estimated.
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
They got 2 missile cav units of which 1 is AP, they actually super under estimated.
The problem is their missile cav is completely useless if the other player has infantry missile units and bothers to protect their monsters. You can't bring them vs HE, DE, empire, bretonnia, WE, etc... Chaos missile cav has short range, so they're way too situational to be a reliable answer to large units.
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
They got 2 missile cav units of which 1 is AP, they actually super under estimated.
The problem is their missile cav is completely useless if the other player has infantry missile units and bothers to protect their monsters. You can't bring them vs HE, DE, empire, bretonnia, WE, etc... Chaos missile cav has short range, so they're way too situational to be a reliable answer to large units.
I disagree, you just keep them behind your lines and shoot at targets engaged in combat, its an amazing way to stop dragons from doing what they want, most players though feel they need to run them at the front of their army where they get shot up to pieces. Actually hardest matches as WE i had vs chaos was when they took 3 units of archer cav and kept them back. You can very easily avoid ALL archer fire with their speed, unless you get netted or don't pay attention there is no way archer should be able to hit you, handguns are a different story as they shoot in straight line and fast.
I think they are absolutely amazing against all the races you just mentioned actually with the exception of empire.
Btw CA nerfed most old factions CAV MASS,maybe that's one of reason why they're not doing well right now,Grail knights MASS were 1100 in WH1,now is 950,Blood knights were 800,now is 670,can't find CK's because it's been hidden(why) but I think it's been nerf too...and ugh...Wild riders and Dragon prince's MASS are 1100 right now...I mean 85/78 speed with 1100MASS...**** me!(but don't nerf them just buff others for god's sake CA plz)
woah woah i thought they felt bad in my experience due to increase mass on infy but they decreased old worlds units mass too..??? and gave dragon princes more mass
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
They got 2 missile cav units of which 1 is AP, they actually super under estimated.
The problem is their missile cav is completely useless if the other player has infantry missile units and bothers to protect their monsters. You can't bring them vs HE, DE, empire, bretonnia, WE, etc... Chaos missile cav has short range, so they're way too situational to be a reliable answer to large units.
I disagree, you just keep them behind your lines and shoot at targets engaged in combat, its an amazing way to stop dragons from doing what they want, most players though feel they need to run them at the front of their army where they get shot up to pieces. Actually hardest matches as WE i had vs chaos was when they took 3 units of archer cav and kept them back. You can very easily avoid ALL archer fire with their speed, unless you get netted or don't pay attention there is no way archer should be able to hit you, handguns are a different story as they shoot in straight line and fast.
I think they are absolutely amazing against all the races you just mentioned actually with the exception of empire.
blahblah...go check chaos vs we matches in tournee,if you have issues play yourself,the hard counter to we are he,beasmten and skaven chaos infact ahve hard tiem vs we now so stop fanboying and saying marauder horseman are good they are ok at best and very situational,chaos has poor ranged that's it even hellcannons are not good anymore so chaos are as good as no ranged and not gonna argue with you more ,so don't bother replying,seeing how past conversations have went.. if you are saying there is a better stragey go in tournament and prove it for now most factions are much better than chaos and they need big flat out buffs ,with a hitbox nerf to shaggohts
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
They got 2 missile cav units of which 1 is AP, they actually super under estimated.
The problem is their missile cav is completely useless if the other player has infantry missile units and bothers to protect their monsters. You can't bring them vs HE, DE, empire, bretonnia, WE, etc... Chaos missile cav has short range, so they're way too situational to be a reliable answer to large units.
I disagree, you just keep them behind your lines and shoot at targets engaged in combat, its an amazing way to stop dragons from doing what they want, most players though feel they need to run them at the front of their army where they get shot up to pieces. Actually hardest matches as WE i had vs chaos was when they took 3 units of archer cav and kept them back. You can very easily avoid ALL archer fire with their speed, unless you get netted or don't pay attention there is no way archer should be able to hit you, handguns are a different story as they shoot in straight line and fast.
I think they are absolutely amazing against all the races you just mentioned actually with the exception of empire.
blahblah...go check chaos vs we matches in tournee,if you have issues play yourself,the hard counter to we are he,beasmten and skaven chaos infact ahve hard tiem vs we now so stop fanboying and saying marauder horseman are good they are ok at best and very situational,chaos has poor ranged that's it even hellcannons are not good anymore so chaos are as good as no ranged and not gonna argue with you more ,so don't bother replying,seeing how past conversations have went.. if you are saying there is a better stragey go in tournament and prove it for now most factions are much better than chaos and they need big flat out buffs ,with a hitbox nerf to shaggohts
Go to school and learn to read, i said the hardest matches "I" had vs chaos was when they took 3 units of archer cav. ITS PERSONAL OPINION the key word giveaway should be the I.
You dont even play Toruneys at all, why do you write such crap comments, not once did i write that chaos are favourable match up vs WE's all im writing is that 3 units of archer cav give me the biggest problems when i vs chaos.
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
They got 2 missile cav units of which 1 is AP, they actually super under estimated.
The problem is their missile cav is completely useless if the other player has infantry missile units and bothers to protect their monsters. You can't bring them vs HE, DE, empire, bretonnia, WE, etc... Chaos missile cav has short range, so they're way too situational to be a reliable answer to large units.
I disagree, you just keep them behind your lines and shoot at targets engaged in combat, its an amazing way to stop dragons from doing what they want, most players though feel they need to run them at the front of their army where they get shot up to pieces. Actually hardest matches as WE i had vs chaos was when they took 3 units of archer cav and kept them back. You can very easily avoid ALL archer fire with their speed, unless you get netted or don't pay attention there is no way archer should be able to hit you, handguns are a different story as they shoot in straight line and fast.
I think they are absolutely amazing against all the races you just mentioned actually with the exception of empire.
blahblah...go check chaos vs we matches in tournee,if you have issues play yourself,the hard counter to we are he,beasmten and skaven chaos infact ahve hard tiem vs we now so stop fanboying and saying marauder horseman are good they are ok at best and very situational,chaos has poor ranged that's it even hellcannons are not good anymore so chaos are as good as no ranged and not gonna argue with you more ,so don't bother replying,seeing how past conversations have went.. if you are saying there is a better stragey go in tournament and prove it for now most factions are much better than chaos and they need big flat out buffs ,with a hitbox nerf to shaggohts
Go to school and learn to read, i said the hardest matches "I" had vs chaos was when they took 3 units of archer cav. ITS PERSONAL OPINION the key word giveaway should be the I.
You dont even play Toruneys at all, why do you write such crap comments, not once did i write that chaos are favourable match up vs WE's all im writing is that 3 units of archer cav give me the biggest problems when i vs chaos.
haha wow this and you guys don't know how to do cross-faction unit comparsion comes a lot from you and i mean a LOT time and time again you are the one who always shown lack of understanding in this lolol you even don't know base mechanics of the game its your opinion alright and its my opinion your opinion is crap,and you will hardly anyone agreeing with your statement there regarding marauder horseman... last comment replying to you,don't wanna waste time on you already seen how you are rampaging and turning threads green for past month
Marauder throwing axes are not a counter to dragons or dinos or any monster by themselves alone. At best they can support by area denial. To actually kill a monster that is moving even a little bit, you would need 5-6 units of marauder axes and be very lucky.
Lol do not be confused with the effectiveness of beastmen axe throwers and assume marauders would be similar. They are not even comparable.
What you suggest lotus moon is simply impractical.
Marauder throwing axes are not a counter to dragons or dinos or any monster by themselves alone. At best they can support by area denial. To actually kill a monster that is moving even a little bit, you would need 5-6 units of marauder axes and be very lucky.
Lol do not be confused with the effectiveness of beastmen axe throwers and assume marauders would be similar. They are not even comparable.
Btw CA nerfed most old factions CAV MASS,maybe that's one of reason why they're not doing well right now,Grail knights MASS were 1100 in WH1,now is 950,Blood knights were 800,now is 670,can't find CK's because it's been hidden(why) but I think it's been nerf too...and ugh...Wild riders and Dragon prince's MASS are 1100 right now...I mean 85/78 speed with 1100MASS...**** me!(but don't nerf them just buff others for god's sake CA plz)
Marauder throwing axes are not a counter to dragons or dinos or any monster by themselves alone. At best they can support by area denial. To actually kill a monster that is moving even a little bit, you would need 5-6 units of marauder axes and be very lucky.
Lol do not be confused with the effectiveness of beastmen axe throwers and assume marauders would be similar. They are not even comparable.
What you suggest lotus moon is simply impractical.
Area denial is big in my view, it means you can keep the dragon away from your important targets (i would be surprised if the opponent let you kill a dragon with 3 units at range) but once they land you can shut them down. Something doesn't need to kill something to be a counter to it in my view, if taking 3 units means your chaos knights survive its a good deal and not like they be useless they got other targets to shoot up.
Choas isn't bad they are just unbalanced. Their good stuff like shaggoths need to get a little worse and some of their weaker stuff needs to get better.
I see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
Im sorry but if you make shaggoths even a ‘little bit’ worse tell me what amount of buffs to what chaos unit will counter...dragons, mammoths, demigryphs, vargulf, terrorgiest, gorebull, giants, durthu, griffon, hippogryphs, mortis engine, arachnaroks, hell put abomination, kroq-gar, dinos, hydra, doomwheel ?
Their 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
They got 2 missile cav units of which 1 is AP, they actually super under estimated.
Fate of bjuna and Spirit Leach are also two very strong range DPS abilities.
Comments
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5 · Disagree AgreeAlthough personally Id revisit also the whole rock paper scissors approach, it feels a bit extreme in some cases, and it steals form the tactical aspect.
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0 · Disagree AgreeYeah higher mass is not welcome. You can balance without exacerbating that.
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0 · Disagree AgreeWhen you make a game you cant just say ok chaos has good inf so they get a 400 cost inf unit that will shred the empire 400 cost inf unit ..... thats not how you get a well balanced game.
You need a certain amount of similarity for cost but slight advantages for sections of the army , so lets say that the 400 cost marauders are more agressive then the empire version and thus does better against other low and cost low armour but does worse in a prolonged grind to show their lack of control and discipline. That is what assymetrical balance is all about.
Its funny that you mention empire players as using the same build, i'd gladly challenge you to play me with your empire to show me the merits of the current army roster........ I've probably played more empire then any other total war player in MP games and i've made countless armies for them and right now they suck..... its that simple. They are as weak as chaos were in patch 1 just with slightly more choices. Empire and bretonnia are weaker then they have ever been and its very sad as empire was one of the best armies to test units against because of their well balanced units in game 1.
Of course empire suck. I never put that into question.
And yes you would easily beat me, no doubt about it.
And yes empire players always use the same army (i have to disagree with you here).
Im just saying that developers should be careful with the units they buff, trying always to preserve each faction uniqueness and flavor, and bearing in mind that not all the units are that bad.
In fact this is one of the reasons i hate eight edition, cause all factions started getting big mosters and mostruos cavalry, loosing a lot of their specific flavor.
I agree with you, chaos is basically being carried by Kholek and the shaggoths.
Btw I also played Bretonnia in tabletop along with high elves and skaven:)
Pd :dark elf hydras were insane in 7 edition.
Well said.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeBuff empire and Brets slightly (chaos also but, with chaos more of an adjustment instead of flat out buff)
while slightly nerfing the tier 1 races.
Overall i feel if Charge Bonus lasted 18 sec up from 15 it would be a good buff game wise to all units that have CB, (of course some units individual CB should be looked at).
It's clear that Warhammer 2 races + BM are ahead of the pack now while Bret/Empire and to a degree VC and Chaos are the weakest races.
So i feel all races should be aimed to be within the level of GS, WE, Dawi.
Certain buff empire/bret threads have some really outrageous ideas that would make them top of the food chain once again, i feel the issues are like stated what ondjage has said just that i would balance out the infantry stage by stage instead of drastic changes to all units.
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1 · Disagree AgreeI see the same builds from chaos a little too much.
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2 · Disagree AgreeTheir 28 speed halberds not immune to psychology ? Or their 1400 cost 28 speed chosen not immune to psychology ? Or maybe there chaos knights (non AP, non AL, 66 speed) ?
CHaos has no range and no healing.
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5 · Disagree AgreePretty much complete overwrite, want unbreakable demi hal equilvalent, yep got it. Silver shield unbreak undead at arms? Sure do. Undead peasant archers? Sure. Unbreakable mounted yeoman archers? Covered. Nets? We got that too.
They pretty much overwrites the entire bret inf roster, entire roster for that matter except cav and air. But i mean why worry about air when u got ush bow.
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeTop #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeI think they are absolutely amazing against all the races you just mentioned actually with the exception of empire.
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1 · Disagree AgreeHAHAHAHA p2w indeed
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0 · Disagree Agreechaos infact ahve hard tiem vs we now
so stop fanboying and saying marauder horseman are good they are ok at best and very situational,chaos has poor ranged that's it even hellcannons are not good anymore so chaos are as good as no ranged
and not gonna argue with you more ,so don't bother replying,seeing how past conversations have went..
if you are saying there is a better stragey go in tournament and prove it for now most factions are much better than chaos and they need big flat out buffs ,with a hitbox nerf to shaggohts
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0 · Disagree AgreeYou dont even play Toruneys at all, why do you write such crap comments, not once did i write that chaos are favourable match up vs WE's all im writing is that 3 units of archer cav give me the biggest problems when i vs chaos.
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0 · Disagree Agreetime and time again you are the one who always shown lack of understanding in this lolol
you even don't know base mechanics of the game
its your opinion alright and its my opinion your opinion is crap,and you will hardly anyone agreeing with your statement there regarding marauder horseman...
last comment replying to you,don't wanna waste time on you already seen how you are rampaging and turning threads green for past month
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
4 · Disagree AgreeLol do not be confused with the effectiveness of beastmen axe throwers and assume marauders would be similar. They are not even comparable.
What you suggest lotus moon is simply impractical.
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2 · Disagree AgreeI dont know base mechanics of the game...
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeBut they don't count because "MaGiC"
GunpowderBows- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree Agreei don't see how this extends gamepace. substantially and those who wanted from reading in general are still not pleased with battle pace looks like
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0 · Disagree Agree