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IDEA: "Soft Realm Divide" or threat penalty

NerdfishNerdfish Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 243
edited January 12 in General Discussion
Basically instead of applying a massive ever increasing diplomatic penalty when you hit some arbitrary # of provinces, Realm Divide penalty should be a gradual factor that increases as you get stronger.

A faction strength or "threat" penalty should exist at all times whenever you engage in diplomacy with someone with LESS ARMY THAN YOU. It has less too do with number of provinces than total army strength. Eventually just having a giant army (say worth a million gold) is going to make everyone else team up against you. But it wouldn't happen all at once.

This way you wouldn't need to worry about taking the 8th province and suddenly finding yourself enemy of the state.

just my 2c.

Comments

  • united84united84 Registered Users Posts: 140
    Hmm...but in order to maintain a "giant" army, you need more land to maintain upkeep, No ?
    Historically, whenever a warlord takes a city usually they absorb the losing side into the ranks of the victors. So, in the game scenario...once your territory grows, naturally you want to grow your army as well. I feel that realm divide based on territory possession is the best way to progress.

    In the case of 3K, a large army requires food otherwise your army will commit mutiny lol.
    Plus, usually warlords who possess strategic cities/provinces like Suzhou & Jing Zhou are always hot target by the more ambitious warlords.
  • LestaTLestaT Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,732
    Are we talking about end game scenario? I would love a series of final battles, something like in Warhammer rather than realm divide or Attila/Chaos/Mongol method. RTW civil wars is obviously out of the question since the setting is about civil wars anyway.

    Maybe after certain conditions are met, like holding certain numbers of province, the game will trigger events where you need to win some battles at certain locations to win the game. No magic teleport of course this time but you'll need to complete it within certain turns, maybe 10-20 depending on how huge the map.

    The end battle series location are different between playable factions, not like in the Vortex campaign.
  • NerdfishNerdfish Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 243
    Yeah I am talking about the end game scenario. When you reach a certain size in shogun 2, everyone else left alive at this point team up against you.
    I think this need to be a gradual process caused by the threat posed by your army, not territorial holdings. your neighbors, and eventually even distant clans, will want to do something about that giant army poised to steamroll the country.
  • AryndelinAryndelin Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 544
    edited January 13
    Nerdfish said:

    Basically instead of applying a massive ever increasing diplomatic penalty when you hit some arbitrary # of provinces, Realm Divide penalty should be a gradual factor that increases as you get stronger.

    A faction strength or "threat" penalty should exist at all times whenever you engage in diplomacy with someone with LESS ARMY THAN YOU. It has less too do with number of provinces than total army strength. Eventually just having a giant army (say worth a million gold) is going to make everyone else team up against you. But it wouldn't happen all at once.

    This way you wouldn't need to worry about taking the 8th province and suddenly finding yourself enemy of the state.

    just my 2c.

    Not sure if its been suggested, but!

    I rather tie realm divide into player actions. Honor and "Face" mattered a whole lot in ancient china.
    The emperor should play a factor too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)
  • NerdfishNerdfish Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 243
    I think honor and face would be something else.
    If you lose face, people laugh at you, not forming a giant coalition to try to kill you.
    It's more intuitive that if you have a huge army, people will team up on you.
    Funny thing is, one of the factions - Dong Zhuo. Starts in this situation.
  • QuetzachiQuetzachi Registered Users Posts: 66
    edited January 14
    Its going to be a realm divide type mechanic. I'll put money on it. Why?
    Because that's what happened in history. Cao Cao got the emperor, all his neighbours formed a coalition to kill him.

    I feel holding the Emperor will be a key factor in Realm Divide, but also take into account some form of "Threat", similar from the paradox grand strategies; The more threat you generate, the worse other people should feel. If you are expanding towards Chang An, this would make Ma Tang and Zhang Lu at risk of conquest. Maybe they should ally up together to meet the giant Cao threat.

    I do like the aforementioned mention of honour and face; those things were really important! If you read Xuanhuan novels like I do, entire sects get crushed because of "Face". Including a face mechanism into diplomacy would be a really interesting feature if done well
  • Maeda_ToshiieMaeda_Toshiie Senior Member SingaporeRegistered Users Posts: 3,596
    The Han Emperor was a puppet and his use was in the matter of issuing edicts in his name by the respective warlord holding him. By holding him and fighting "on his behalf", the warlord has ammuntion for propaganda. On the other hand, the warlord cannot declare himself Emperor if he intends to continue using the Emperor.

    Other than the Han Emperor, there is something else of importance: the Hereditary Seal. It played considerable importance in the early part of the novel.


    Within the novel, there are ways to raise yourself high up on public enemy list:
    1. Declaring yourself Emperor (eg. Yuan Shu)
    2. Declaring yourself Prince of X (eg. Cao Cao) because it implies the intention to usurp.
    3. Holding the Hereditary Seal.
    4. Killing the Han Emperor (historically, Emperor Xian lived well into Jin, so he can play a role through out the likely span of the game)

    Actually, even getting yourself named Duke of X is already raising your profile along the usurpation path.

    I'm not sure if it is a good idea for the game to force such actions onto the player.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,712
    edited January 14
    Realm Divide sucked, so it shouldn't get a reprise in whichever way.

    The politics and powers update for Rome2 actually provides an "organic" lategame challenges since creating a large empire now also creates more political parties within which might not align with how you run your empire and so you face more internal quarrels. This is much better than an artificial script that just turns the map against you.

  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 413

    Realm Divide sucked, so it shouldn't get a reprise in whichever way.

    The politics and powers update for Rome2 actually provides an "organic" lategame challenges since creating a large empire now also creates more political parties within which might not align with how you run your empire and so you face more internal quarrels. This is much better than an artificial script that just turns the map against you.

    Next to that it would be nice if they could implement late game events like barbarian invasions. I always found it strange to have corners of the map where nothing happend due to my faction owning it.

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,461
    edited January 14
    Nah cannot work. We r talking about chinese, if theres anything like this qin wouldve never ever unified china.

    Realm divide itself is garbage, it should work the complete opposite, being insanely strong instills not fear, but terror. All factions should bow and pay tribute. Those who dont get razed.
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  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,473
    There should be no such thing as automatic realm divide. But depends solely on the situation of the game and your actions. Anyone declaring himself emperor instead of the legitimate Han emperor should be a guaranteed realm divide, that's for sure, but for both player and AI. Controlling the Han emperor, however, will cause a lesser, but still significant diplomatic effect depends on the diplomatic personality of other AI factions, it could be a major opinion bonus for the AI factions that recognize your control of Imperial Court 奉天子以令不臣,or a nasty opinion penalty for ambitious AI factions that don't 挾天子以令諸侯。For the former, confederation via diplomacy should become much easier; for the latter, a high possibility of war, but not guaranteed, unlike realm divide.
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