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Pike & Shot Warfare (in TW 3K)

IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 607
edited February 2018 in General Discussion
Historically, an early version/prototype of Pike and Shot warfare (with crossbows instead of guns) was very common in the Chinese kingdoms throughout the Warring States to 3K timeperiod. The armies of this era used pikes up to 22 feet long and up to 18 foot halberd-like pike-polearms combined with embedded crossbowmen and rotating crossbow volley fire formations. It would be similar to the Renaissance era European armies that used pikes + crossbows before transitioning to firearms.

If they don't have something similar to Pike and Shot warfare in this 3K game then many of us historical TW players will be very disappointed.

Pikes and Halberds Images:







Pike points & Pike shaft joinders/couplers:







Crossbow rotating volley firing line gif:


More Pikes & halberds images:

https://imgur.com/a/ErjG5

https://imgur.com/a/3WO5u

---

Sources:

"Crossbows remained one of the major weapons in Song times. In the eleventh century, Shen Gua argued that the crossbow is to the Chinese what the horse was to the Khitan -- the asset that gave them their advantage. In field battles against foreign cavalry, the Chinese infantry would have a row of pikemen with shields, rows of archers, and a row of crossbowmen. When the cavalry approached, the crossbowmen would shoot first above the crouching pikemen and bowmen. The pikemen and archers would shield the slower-firing crossbowmen, who, however, could inflict more damage."

https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/miltech/crossbow.htm
https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/index.htm
The historian here, Patricia Buckley Ebrey, mostly specializes in Song Dynasty history, but the tactics are applicable to earlier eras as well. One of the videos below or another article discussing mentioned similar tactics dating back to the Warring States era.

"The Qin also employed long spears (more akin to a pike) in formations similar to Swiss pikemen in order to ward off cavalry. The Han Empire would use similar tactics as its Qin predecessors. Halbers, polearms, and dagger axes were also common weapons during this time."

https://books.google.com/books?id=tko5DAAAQBAJ&pg=PT161&lpg=PT161&dq=qin+pike+formation&source=bl&ots=q75muog2Do&sig=q03ATN0Hq_jwiLR8-jzZ0ynSMQo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-3p-YuuLXAhVOON8KHbR-ChoQ6AEIXDAL#v=snippet&q="similar to Swiss pikemen"&f=false

"Finally, the Qin and Han Dynasties also developed crossbow shooting lines, with alternating rows of crossbowmen shooting and reloading in a manner similar to a musket firing line."

https://books.google.com/books?id=tko5DAAAQBAJ&pg=PT161&lpg=PT161&dq=qin+pike+formation&source=bl&ots=q75muog2Do&sig=q03ATN0Hq_jwiLR8-jzZ0ynSMQo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-3p-YuuLXAhVOON8KHbR-ChoQ6AEIXDAL#v=onepage&q="rows of crossbowmen"&f=false

The "Terra Cotta Warriors" documentary with descriptions of pike warfare: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/chinas-terracotta-warriors-watch-the-full-episode/844/

In this documentary, there is a discussion at 1:05:30 about the 22 foot pikes used by the Qin.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5590&v=ctoDUdpRwzM[/url]

https://books.google.com/books? id=pYkvDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT29&lpg=PT29&dq=qin+pike+crossbow&source=bl&ots=Ys4KB-9eZk&sig=BHoo07i5ztYnA-6igYJqIjnxsVY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihiYyqvOLXAhXRRt8KHY5mB6c4ChDoAQhHMAY#v=snippet&q=pike%20&f=false

"Around this time, the accuracy of crossbows was improved by the use of the world's first grid sights for aiming..." [Ancient Inventions -By Peter J. James, Nick Thorpe, I. J. Thorpe]

https://books.google.com/books?id=VmJLd3sSYecC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=chinese+crossbow+grid+sight&source=bl&ots=4TF3ncnsqD&sig=FPzGt_LWMgCol4W5sr1CdLHJDHE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiShdTTj-TXAhVkct8KHcgbB1MQ6AEIPjAH#v=onepage&q=chinese crossbow grid sight&f=false

"(...a grid or crosswire sights) are set up on the frame....can mark his target, whether high or low, to the right or to the left." and "...other Han marksmen used cross-wire grid sights is well asured from other evidence..." [Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 3, Mathematics and the Sciences of the Heavens and the Earth... -By Joseph Needham]

https://books.google.com/books?id=jfQ9E0u4pLAC&pg=PA575&lpg=PA575&dq=chinese+crossbow+grid+sight&source=bl&ots=7rqJ38CyHi&sig=7SNFBeD8rRqLzbmkkaw32T2K0mE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiShdTTj-TXAhVkct8KHcgbB1MQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=chinese crossbow grid sight&f=false

Ideas of Qin's Army formations from Terra Cotta Warriors: The red squares and black dots are arrows/triggers from bows and crossbows - there are some melee infantry weapons dispersed among these ranged troops. They are mostly in the front and sides but there is also a line of crossbowmen behind a line of spears/lances/halberds/pikes and behind chariots. Note: Apparently more than 90% of the weapons of the Terra Cotta soldiers were looted (as they found 8000+ soldiers but only ~500 weapons) so it may not be a complete picture.

http://scalar.usc.edu/works/terracotta-army/weaponry

https://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/strategy_1.htm
Post edited by Intranetusa on
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Comments

  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,405
    Problem is mixed units don't work well. CA has said it before even mixed melee types for barbarians who could use swords, axes and clubs in a single unit.
  • JacquestheApostateJacquestheApostate Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 698
    Excellent thread you started. By the looks of the last picture the game should be called Total Mayhem.
    3 Kingdoms is a great game campaign wise. Make ranked battles in Records mode. Until that is done it won't be complete.
    Gun Cav in Shogun II should have a Retainer!
    Give us another Avatar Campaign!
  • sbofchinasbofchina Registered Users Posts: 106
    In my opinion ,it's no need to add mixed melee type, unless they make the age of Spring& Autumn.
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607
    sbofchina said:

    In my opinion ,it's no need to add mixed melee type, unless they make the age of Spring& Autumn.

    Pike and crossbow warfare was an important part of the Spring & Autumn, Warring States, Han Dynasty, and the Three Kingdoms period. It was used well into the Song and even the Ming Dynasties before the Ming replaced crossbows with firearms.

    This is a very important segment of warfare in ancient China that we should not ignore.

    And even if they are using the outdated TW3 game engine that cannot handle mixed unit formations, they should at least include a lot of pikes, halberds, and crossbows as separate units.
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607

    Excellent thread you started. By the looks of the last picture the game should be called Total Mayhem.

    :D
    Commisar said:

    Problem is mixed units don't work well. CA has said it before even mixed melee types for barbarians who could use swords, axes and clubs in a single unit.

    Do you mean the game engine? Even if they're still using the old outdated TW3 engine for this game, they should at least have a lot of different pike, halberd, and crossbow units in the game even if they can't have mixed unit types/formations.
  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,328
    A wonderful idea... just remember the High Elves in TWW... Lothern Sea Guard have Spears and Bows... this could work in three kingdoms as well.
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607
    Yep! Not just in TWW, but dual weapons are found in almost every TW game.
    Pretty much all archers, crossbowmen, and gun unit in every TW game has some sort of backup melee weapon (dagger or short sword). Many of the heavy infantry in RTW1, RTW2, and Attila TW - Romans especially, throw javelins before switching to sword melee.

    In RTW1 mods such as Europa Barbarorum, ALL units basically had multiple weapons. Cheap Persian archer-spearmen were effective because they had a backup spear to fight cavalry trying to run down archers. Hoplites were equipped with swords, and armored Persian spearmen were equipped with armor-piercing maces to take down armor.

    So even if they just reuse the same old TW3 engine that doesn't allow totally different troop types in the same unit, they could give troops multiple weapons like crossbow + swords, halberds + crossbow, etc
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607
    edited February 2018
    Delete dbl post.
  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    TW engine problem mostly, Pike and Shot may requires a completely new engine for such mixed units.
  • duxetprincepsduxetprinceps Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 69
    CA needs to develop an engine with actual tactical units of battalions and companies instead of the dumb weaponry-based units as swordsmen, spearmen, axemen...
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,734
    I have never understood why so many people care so much about this era of warfare.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,264

    I have never understood why so many people care so much about this era of warfare.

    Because not everyone has the same preference as yours.

    Me, I also like China.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,074

    I have never understood why so many people care so much about this era of warfare.

    I care less about the combat style than I do about the specific era it happened in, since that one was fraught with very violent conflicts, moreso than the century before and after. The friggin' Thirty Years War would have been glorious to fight in.

  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,264

    I have never understood why so many people care so much about this era of warfare.

    I care less about the combat style than I do about the specific era it happened in, since that one was fraught with very violent conflicts, moreso than the century before and after. The friggin' Thirty Years War would have been glorious to fight in.
    Thirty Years War suits as an expansion of Renaissance.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,453
    Or just have two units mixed together.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • BreadboxBreadbox Registered Users Posts: 785
    edited February 2018
    I just want long polearms to be the mainstay weapon for ordered,formation battles.

    Espacially in an era and geography where it is.I’m utterly sick and tired of the domination of swords as the core of the army in every TW titles.
    I say screw swords for once,just for once be somewhat truthful with history,for once,
    regulate them to specialist troops as they are in history of this area.

    Literally the only time we have a primarily spear army(most armies in history) in TW is...the High Elves,fantasy to the rescue of historical autheticity!!
    Ps:with the possible exception of Macedon Phalanx

    S2,is an utterly shameful display,its sickening to see that the ‘mainstay’ unit as the fantastical ‘Katana Samurai’,a double slap in the face for historical authenticity.
    While ‘Yari Ashigaru’ does not even use their yari outside of their clunky,never used by the AI Yari wall.

    Please for once,try to depict wars are actually fought this time,without the obnoxious katana/sword fetish.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,075
    If swords dominate your battles, you're playing a rather interesting way. I found spears and pikes to be far superior line infantry in most of TW, with archery and cavalry playing the part of dealing high damage and breaking units.
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607
    psychoak said:

    If swords dominate your battles, you're playing a rather interesting way. I found spears and pikes to be far superior line infantry in most of TW, with archery and cavalry playing the part of dealing high damage and breaking units.

    Back in RTW1 and MTW2 days, sword infantry pretty dominated everything and spear infantry (without special formations to increase their life span) were pretty much useless in comparison.
    That's why I liked mods such as Europa Barbarorum, where they made spearmen more useful and made many troops carry two weapons, with the spear as primary and sword as backup.
  • VessingerVessinger Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 978
    Even though I don't recall electing you as my spokesman OP, I do have to admit I'd be interested in pike & shot formations.

  • JacquestheApostateJacquestheApostate Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 698
    Apparently in this time, era there was pike and crossbow in which the crossbow was the firearm if I can use that term.
    3 Kingdoms is a great game campaign wise. Make ranked battles in Records mode. Until that is done it won't be complete.
    Gun Cav in Shogun II should have a Retainer!
    Give us another Avatar Campaign!
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,264
    edited March 2018
    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?

    https://borgenproject.org/the-three-kingdoms-war/
    Post edited by jamreal18 on
  • MagicMonkey243MagicMonkey243 Registered Users Posts: 140
    edited March 2018
    jamreal18 said:

    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?

    Obviously not ... wasn't gunpowder invented during the Tang Dynasty?
    "If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door" - Milton Berle
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,453
    I think he missed the bolded text in the first sentence of OP.

    I mean it's a giant post sure, but sheesh, it was the first sentence.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,175
    Though if we do ever get a game set in the Song Dynasty-Mongol Conflict, that means we will get to hopefully see the really interesting **** that people were doing with Gunpowder to try and find out it's usefullness before massed firearms and high quality stationary cannons.
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607
    jamreal18 said:

    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?
    https://borgenproject.org/the-three-kingdoms-war/

    No. But they certainly could add very basic forms of gunpowder weapons anachronistically considering other TW games such as Attila TW has gunpowder explosives launched from large onagers.

    jamreal18 said:

    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?

    Obviously not ... wasn't gunpowder invented during the Tang Dynasty?
    Something like that.
    Krunch said:

    Though if we do ever get a game set in the Song Dynasty-Mongol Conflict, that means we will get to hopefully see the really interesting **** that people were doing with Gunpowder to try and find out it's usefullness before massed firearms and high quality stationary cannons.

    Attila TW has the 1212 AD mod which has early gunpowder weapons such as firelancers for the Mongol factions. The units act more like shotgunners with a crazy spray damage and may be a bit overpowered.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,453
    I can already do pike and shot with units of Spearmen and Handgunners.
    IMO, when it is all automated by the game it sort of defeats the purpose of playing battle mode, which I already avoid for other reasons.

    I think being able to use fire by rank stuff applied to missile infantry would work just fine. You can already do that in games like Fall of the Samurai, just have spear levies wait behind your line infantry. Would probably be even more flexible because you take out the buggy middleman that is the game's pathfinding and formation design. Bad enough we order pikemen to face a direction, only to have said pikemen mill around poking at eachother, and then get faceraped by that group of charging cavalry who would otherwise get shredded had the pikemen maintained formation.

    I can only imagine how much worse that would be for a unit that's trying to be both pike and shot. CA should focus on improving player input with regards to controlling units. You need that perfected before you go into pike and shot mechanics, anyways.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • MagicMonkey243MagicMonkey243 Registered Users Posts: 140

    jamreal18 said:

    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?
    https://borgenproject.org/the-three-kingdoms-war/

    No. But they certainly could add very basic forms of gunpowder weapons anachronistically considering other TW games such as Attila TW has gunpowder explosives launched from large onagers.

    jamreal18 said:

    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?

    Obviously not ... wasn't gunpowder invented during the Tang Dynasty?
    Something like that.
    Krunch said:

    Though if we do ever get a game set in the Song Dynasty-Mongol Conflict, that means we will get to hopefully see the really interesting **** that people were doing with Gunpowder to try and find out it's usefullness before massed firearms and high quality stationary cannons.

    Attila TW has the 1212 AD mod which has early gunpowder weapons such as firelancers for the Mongol factions. The units act more like shotgunners with a crazy spray damage and may be a bit overpowered.
    The Attila explosive onagers felt like the Armstrong guns in FoTS for me ... they were ridiculous. I hope CA tones it down a bit with the artillery :D:D:D
    "If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door" - Milton Berle
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Registered Users Posts: 2,370

    jamreal18 said:

    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?
    https://borgenproject.org/the-three-kingdoms-war/

    No. But they certainly could add very basic forms of gunpowder weapons anachronistically considering other TW games such as Attila TW has gunpowder explosives launched from large onagers.

    jamreal18 said:

    Were there already gunpowder in this time period?

    Obviously not ... wasn't gunpowder invented during the Tang Dynasty?
    Something like that.
    Krunch said:

    Though if we do ever get a game set in the Song Dynasty-Mongol Conflict, that means we will get to hopefully see the really interesting **** that people were doing with Gunpowder to try and find out it's usefullness before massed firearms and high quality stationary cannons.

    Attila TW has the 1212 AD mod which has early gunpowder weapons such as firelancers for the Mongol factions. The units act more like shotgunners with a crazy spray damage and may be a bit overpowered.
    The Attila explosive onagers felt like the Armstrong guns in FoTS for me ... they were ridiculous. I hope CA tones it down a bit with the artillery :D:D:D
    Yeah, Attila has homing heat missle field onagers as accurate as modern day middle systems..rofl. Seeing the Goths guide their heat seeking missles onto squads of waiting Romans...yeah lolol.
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607
    edited June 2018
    Where are the pike and crossbow formations in the new Tsao Tsao trailer?
    Post edited by Intranetusa on
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 607
    edited June 2018
    So far, the gameplay shows generic spearmen, generic swordsmen, generic cavalry, etc...

    Rather disappointing.
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