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Duel & Debate system like ROTK 10, 11, 13---5000+ historical officers/characters in TW: TK ?

WudadiWudadi Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 12


Duel system: everyone know it.



Debate system: this is really important, like ROTK debate system that let advisers useful in the game.
e.g.
1. To persuade new officers / some captured generals / generals of other forces to you side using debate system.
2. Diplomacy, like armistice agreement, alliance, exchange captured generals, reinforcement request........
3. Siege battle, To persuade enemy's general's surrender / change sides in a war. like ROTK 10 did.
4. ............

I hope CA can make: In the battle field make a real capture system.

According the "Records of the Three Kingdoms" + Pei Songzhi's annotations, there are 5000+ named officers/characters in the book at least.

In fact: Three Kingdoms period should start in 169 AD which is the forth western Qiang people rebelling end. 184~214 AD is called the fifth western Qiang people rebelling period.

KOEI's ROTK 1~13 total have 900+ historical officers / characters in game, the ROTK 13 has 800 historical officers in game.

How many officers / characters around 184~280 AD that CA can add in the game ? B)

Comments

  • TsiarTsiar Registered Users Posts: 376
    Significantly less, I expect.
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 1,458
    Debate system sure is interesting!
  • irurobinirurobin Registered Users Posts: 1,826
    edited January 2018
    <3 These ROTK games.

    ROTK 10 has the best debate system.

    ROTK 11 has the coolest duel system.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    Quite a kick in the face if TW3K gets duels when Warhammer didn't.
  • Go4CelerityGo4Celerity Registered Users Posts: 11

    Quite a kick in the face if TW3K gets duels when Warhammer didn't.

    I can't imagine a 3 Kingdoms game without duels, other than the original Koei Romance of the Three Kingdoms (1989) which was very basic. Duels are an integral part of the story. If CA doesn't delve into the story they are going to miss a lot of the potential for this title.

    RO3K 7 had poetry contests. Yes, poetry contests. Your best politicians and advisors would gather together and present short poems in competition for a prize. It was a nice touch, and consistent with the culture.

    The debate mini games in later titles were fun, but I'm not expecting this from CA.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,419
    people couldn't imagine Shogun2 without duels, especially with a fancy trailer featuring just that.

    For those that don't know, Shogun2 had no duels. IMO it defeats the point of raising armies if you can just run around killing their champions and basically converting whole regions and armies to your control.

    If you want more RPG stuff Ca could also do a Total War Battles: Three Kingdoms where it's basically China-themed terraform simulator plus battles.

    Duels are very...not Total War.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • MasayukiSanadaMasayukiSanada Registered Users Posts: 26
    Debates tho.... would be an interesting addition even if there isn't a mini game like RoTK
  • chainsawddchainsawdd Registered Users Posts: 187

    Debates tho.... would be an interesting addition even if there isn't a mini game like RoTK

    its mechanics can be designed in diplomacy.
  • mitthrawnuruodomitthrawnuruodo Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,882
    It would be great if it was designed like that. Every army would have commanders and adjutants. Every governing body would have rulers and ministers. More importantly, we will have both good and bad characters, not just "heroes". It will be up to the player to pick the right person for the job. So much more realistic.
  • Clover1Clover1 Registered Users Posts: 10
    I can't imagine that it will have debates, at least not in the sense of a set of features. This is Total War, after all, not Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I am rather shocked to see a heavy influence from Koei, though.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,419
    I suppose if you really want Debate, you can just have it like a mission that stacks against attributes.

    I personally didn't like that part of Rome2, though. It sort of forced a lot of game content to work along its mechanics.

    Basically the "Debate" scheme already exists in previous TW games, it's called bribery and the success rate of agents doing it.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • QuetzachiQuetzachi Registered Users Posts: 74
    Say, if you want ROTK features in the game, play ROTK; not TW; 13 is pretty good. What I don't want from TWTK is ROTK with RTS battles, I would rather CA take advantage of the C in their name and give us something more creative than what we have had for the past 13 iterations of Koei's classic; sure use it as inspiration, but make it your own!

    I could see how debates and duels could be integrated into the game, debates could be a way for one agent to disable another; same with duels. After all, people coughed up blood after those things.
  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,317
    duels :D

    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • MasayukiSanadaMasayukiSanada Registered Users Posts: 26
    daelin4 said:

    I suppose if you really want Debate, you can just have it like a mission that stacks against attributes.

    I personally didn't like that part of Rome2, though. It sort of forced a lot of game content to work along its mechanics.

    Basically the "Debate" scheme already exists in previous TW games, it's called bribery and the success rate of agents doing it.

    the problem is, in the latest installation like Attila the diplomacy and subterfuge took more of a back seat as it become a streamlined mechanic
    - find a nation territory
    - build rapport by non agression pact / attacking his enemies/give gifts till the relation is green
    - wait till "great power penalty" makes everyone hates you
    I like the relation +/- calculation but ..... I rather have debates in form of diplomats

    RoTK debates weren't perfect and are just mini games
    but having a diplomat talking to enemy leader scene is similar to Medieval 2 diplomat function (and historically correct in Western or Eastern history) - that is what I want at least -

    Attila's spy / champion / priest system lacks that one aspect - diplomats
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,419
    In Rome2 they added a political element in the form of sending diplomat to another faction (cannot be at war) for a chance to raise relations. It's basically spend money to boost relations, but It think it was down to dumb luck as to whether it went great, okay, nothing or even war declared.

    If by debates you mean able to utilize characters to influence diplomacy, we already have this in the form of events and other factions that raise relations.

    There's really two separate elements when people are talking about this whole Debate thing: a minigame experience involving character interactions, and the greater implications of this idea on the campaign. Some people can only dream of the latter being achieved by the former, despite the fact that without the former we already have the latter.

    I can see this being done in the form of Hero missions and nothing more, since anything more is too much investment into what is essentially a means to assist in the campaign map.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • BreadboxBreadbox Registered Users Posts: 785
    TW has never been about minigames and the core audience wouldn’t react very positively to minigames.

    What I hope to see sending characters to different missions where the success(basically R2 but actually useful) or effectiveness is determined by the character’s attribute.
  • Preliminary7Preliminary7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 15
    Wudadi said:



    Duel system: everyone know it.



    Debate system: this is really important, like ROTK debate system that let advisers useful in the game.
    e.g.
    1. To persuade new officers / some captured generals / generals of other forces to you side using debate system.
    2. Diplomacy, like armistice agreement, alliance, exchange captured generals, reinforcement request........
    3. Siege battle, To persuade enemy's general's surrender / change sides in a war. like ROTK 10 did.
    4. ............

    I hope CA can make: In the battle field make a real capture system.

    According the "Records of the Three Kingdoms" + Pei Songzhi's annotations, there are 5000+ named officers/characters in the book at least.

    In fact: Three Kingdoms period should start in 169 AD which is the forth western Qiang people rebelling end. 184~214 AD is called the fifth western Qiang people rebelling period.

    KOEI's ROTK 1~13 total have 900+ historical officers / characters in game, the ROTK 13 has 800 historical officers in game.

    How many officers / characters around 184~280 AD that CA can add in the game ? B)

    I agree on having prisoner of war officer join you, get execute, or release but not in a similar form of debate since the debate system is so easy to manipulate since it all depends on your characters diplomacy skill what they could do is implement it into the diplomacy they've had but instead use bribing and cajoling and when you're at a certain percentage the general will switch side in battle or turn based depending on the situation.
  • the_real_weedthe_real_weed Member Registered Users Posts: 241
    edited January 2018
    daelin4 said:

    people couldn't imagine Shogun2 without duels, especially with a fancy trailer featuring just that.

    For those that don't know, Shogun2 had no duels. IMO it defeats the point of raising armies if you can just run around killing their champions and basically converting whole regions and armies to your control.

    If you want more RPG stuff Ca could also do a Total War Battles: Three Kingdoms where it's basically China-themed terraform simulator plus battles.

    Duels are very...not Total War.

    Thank you for this comment. As a long term TW Player i wonder what all the people in this subforum thinking what a TW Game is. I´m reading some hillarious post about RPG playing etc. Ladies and Gentlemen this is a STRATEGY Game. Even if TW3K is based on a novel within chinese history this game will be like all other Total Wars before. You raising army´s and develop your cities. Don´t expect significant changes to the TW formula. Some people are so hyped about the setting, they don´t see how unrealistic their ideas become.
  • MasayukiSanadaMasayukiSanada Registered Users Posts: 26
    daelin4 said:

    In Rome2 they added a political element in the form of sending diplomat to another faction (cannot be at war) for a chance to raise relations. It's basically spend money to boost relations, but It think it was down to dumb luck as to whether it went great, okay, nothing or even war declared.[/quote]
    I didn't know this, this isn't on Attila (I don't own Rome 2 - I have Med2 Napoleon and Attila)

    [quote]If by debates you mean able to utilize characters to influence diplomacy, we already have this in the form of events and other factions that raise relations.[/quote]
    yes.
    Are you talking about dilemma events ? I like those just not exactly what I mean. Closer to Rome 2 example above

    [quote]There's really two separate elements when people are talking about this whole Debate thing: a minigame experience involving character interactions, and the greater implications of this idea on the campaign. Some people can only dream of the latter being achieved by the former, despite the fact that without the former we already have the latter.[/quote]
    well, I want diplomacy aspect to be improved, we all know that is what TW games are lacking in immersion. Debates would be one way to improve that IMO

    [quote]I can see this being done in the form of Hero missions and nothing more, since anything more is too much investment into what is essentially a means to assist in the campaign map.

    Agents. It was done in Medieval 2 and games before that
  • WudadiWudadi Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 12

    daelin4 said:

    people couldn't imagine Shogun2 without duels, especially with a fancy trailer featuring just that.

    For those that don't know, Shogun2 had no duels. IMO it defeats the point of raising armies if you can just run around killing their champions and basically converting whole regions and armies to your control.

    If you want more RPG stuff Ca could also do a Total War Battles: Three Kingdoms where it's basically China-themed terraform simulator plus battles.

    Duels are very...not Total War.

    Thank you for this comment. As a long term TW Player i wonder what all the people in this subforum thinking what a TW Game is. I´m reading some hillarious post about RPG playing etc. Ladies and Gentlemen this is a STRATEGY Game. Even if TW3K is based on a novel within chinese history this game will be like all other Total Wars before. You raising army´s and develop your cities. Don´t expect significant changes to the TW formula. Some people are so hyped about the setting, they don´t see how unrealistic their ideas become.
    I guess you never played ROTK 10, M&B, CK2.....
    For a single state contol STRATEGY game, you just can unify the land(battles, develop your cities...) those features a RPG strategy also can do it. However, all the RPG element a single state contol STRATEGY game cannot do it.
    A aole-playing strategy games are more informative than a single state contol strategy game. This is common sense.
    e.g. In ROTK 10 (2004), there are tons of RPG elements you can do it in the game, even M&B learn form KOEI's ROTK 10 (2004) & Taikou Risshiden(2003,), if you have a chance to play this two games, you will know how narrow view you are.
    Oh, I forgot to meation the duel and debate system are not limited for RPG strategy game, the first duel system start in 1995---ROTK 5 is a state contol strategy game, ROTK 5, 6, 9, 11, 12 all are a state contol strategy game. the ROTK 7,8,10,13 these are RPG strategy game, the duel system from ROTK 5 ~ 13, the debate system from ROTK 10~13.
    KOEI historical strategy older than CIV, the first KOEI historical strategy game made in 1981. Unfortunately, most player in the world just know KOEI's no brain mowing game"DW".

    I think due to technical issue CA still use turn base strategy system--- a out of date system. if there is no technical problem, CA should use real time line, like KOEI's games Paradox's games. no first turn advantage. e.g. in civ 6, i can destroy other civs by throw many N- bomb in my turn, I play total war always use first turn advantage to cheat AI. All western historical streategy games are influenced by CIV, even AOE.

    RPG streatgy is the STREATGY game's furtue.

    All the Chinese historical strategy game can have a RPG elements
    reason:
    1. The Twenty-five Histories, also known as the Orthodox Histories are the Chinese official historical books covering a period from 3000 BC to the Qing dynasty in the 20th century.

    2. The Twenty-five Histories (Chinese official historical books) don't not have English translate version.

    4. Official historical book about Three kingdoms periord is called "Records of the Three Kingdoms".

    3. All of Twenty-five Histories are biography, not chronicle, That's why the novel 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms' have many vivid characters.

    5. According the "Records of the Three Kingdoms" + "Pei Songzhi's annotations", there are 5000+ named officers/characters in the book at least.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,419


    I didn't know this, this isn't on Attila (I don't own Rome 2 - I have Med2 Napoleon and Attila)

    Ah it was a very recent update alongside the Empire Divided DLC; you select the faction screen, and selectig characters gave you options to deploy them to do certain things, like raise food level for one turn, raise public order for one turn, and raise relations to specific faction. These all cost money and one turn, and the characters cannot be generals on the field.
    It's...a start in the right direction.

    In terms of duels and debates I can see these being accomplished by this mechanic. It's not as minigame as toe ROTK titles but hey it does the job without interfering too much with playing a Total War game.

    If I were to improve it I would just let them deploy indefinitely until recalled, that way you don't constantly go back to faction screen to deploy characters every turn. It's useful, but annoying. It would be like having skilltrees reset every turn- it gets lame every time except that ONE time you need to use it.



    Are you talking about dilemma events ? I like those just not exactly what I mean. Closer to Rome 2 example above

    Regular dilemma events; the Power and Politics feature does not present dilemmas, like regular agent missions you succeed or fail.


    well, I want diplomacy aspect to be improved, we all know that is what TW games are lacking in immersion. Debates would be one way to improve that IMO

    There's the issue of form and function here. Some people want the form and justify their desire by stating that it comes with a function. Some people want JUST the form and don't care about what it actually does, and some people, like myself, prefer a function even if the appearance and format is not what we expect it to be. If a game is to focused on form and lacks functionality it becomes a railroaded game that players have little meaningful interaction with beyond watching cinematics. A game with too much function and not enough form is too mechanical and while you interact a lot with it, it doesn't always feel meaningful. This is what most people think when they say "immersion".

    ROTK duels and debates feature very highly on the form and while they do have function, it's main purpose is showcase a very featured set of game systems not related to the rest of a Total War game. In that case I wouldn't like it; if I wanted that I can just play those ROTK games, right?
    The idea that they assist in diplomacy is interesting, but it also ignores the fact that we already have these functions, and in different forms over the years. With Power and Politics and Warhammer II's Influence system for High Elfs, for the first time we can influence relations outside of direct diplomacy actions. Loyalty metres allowed individual characters a chance to rebel against you as a result of a set of actions- that is to say, if you want to bribe someone you just succeeded or failed, you didn't have a fancy sideshow involving a separate set of game mechanics and assets.

    The biggest issue with ideas like these is that they demand a separate focus from the rest of the game. Sure bribing that general means you get that general and can use him in the campaign, but should we have what is effectively a separate game to accomplish that? We already have that in the form of battle mode- in some games featuring ships we also had naval battles which often worked differently, despite using the same format.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • MasayukiSanadaMasayukiSanada Registered Users Posts: 26
    Q : Sure bribing that general means you get that general and can use him in the campaign, but should we have what is effectively a separate game to accomplish that?

    - that's how it played out in Medieval 2 tho, you can bribe with high ranking diplomats or use princess with high charm (damn you random secret lover trait) to entice your enemy general to your side. It was TW own answer to RoTK debates.

    - And there was also my favorite mechanics merchant war, which also quite close to debates....Although it was barebones mechanics - high merchant exp = high percentage of getting a win - it works.
    And add substantial depth and roleplay to the game.
    HRE declaring war on my Leon & Castille (SS 6.4) because I keep hunting their merchants was some great response from the AI.

    TLDR : TW was a similar mechanic to debates implemented before fit the setting of Three Kingdoms era.
    I am not expecting RoTK style debates but this thread made me remember why I still have Medieval 2 on my HDD for 10 years and sometime boot SS 6.4 and I hope something similar can be implemented
  • CarlHamiltonCarlHamilton Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 41
    Politics and diplomacy has been extremely lack luster in all total war games. It's a shame they don't pick up a cue from some of the other grand strategy games. I highly doubt debates or any major internal politics system will be put in this to be honest.
  • WudadiWudadi Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 12
    edited June 2018
    We need DEBATE SYSTEM too
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