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Mortal Empires sure needs more balancing...

LazykingLazyking Posts: 27Registered Users
So i just started a Dwarven campaign on hard in mortal Empires and the Orcs are just ridiculous. They spawn armés like a Skaven-spawnmother spawn rats and they confederate at an alarming rate giving them even more power.

After fighting an winning over 14 full 20 stacks armies about turn 45 i thought, well cant play tower defence for ever so i ventured out to raid, poff an agent pops up blocks my army then 4 new full armies popps up one with 6 black orcs in it...
FFS... NERF THE SIGMAR DAMNED ORC-AI

The AIn dosent even feel the hurt you are dishing out to them, breaks gameplay. I have not felt liek this since the chaos/Norsca bug.
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Comments

  • TheChocolateJesusTheChocolateJesus Senior Member Posts: 1,366Registered Users
    I actually agree with nerfing the Greenskins a bit. Everybody was disgruntled by the Dwarfs expanding like crazy and now the Greenskins are getting seriously out of hand. I wonder if it's even possible to find a middle ground. During my current Empire campaign the Orcs have been rampaging trough the Badlands and beyond and left the Dwarfs crippled with about 5 settlements left...altough right now the Dawi are recovering a bit and recapturing some of the lost territory I still feel the Orcs are fielding too many stacks.
    It's gotta be a Chocolate Jesus to keep me satisfied.
  • madskittlsmadskittls Posts: 270Registered Users
    I'm playing that right now and the Orcs really are a huge power. Maybe if Waaaggghhh armies were one tier lower units from the parent army rather than being relatively similar in power?
  • Otters007Otters007 Posts: 214Registered Users
    The Greenskins 100% deserve their turn in the sun, and the Dwarfs deserve everything that's coming to them. The Dawi tide has been a menace for so long, I am really enjoying watching them get stomped by the boyz every campaign.

    It also creates more of a threat in the South, makes for a more interesting campaign imo.
  • madskittlsmadskittls Posts: 270Registered Users
    Otters007 said:

    The Greenskins 100% deserve their turn in the sun, and the Dwarfs deserve everything that's coming to them. The Dawi tide has been a menace for so long, I am really enjoying watching them get stomped by the boyz every campaign.

    It also creates more of a threat in the South, makes for a more interesting campaign imo.

    It does, but long term, we want Orcs and Dwarfs to both be able to take over the Southlands. Not having one win every single time.
  • duglandtotoduglandtoto Posts: 56Registered Users
    In my campaign both dwarves and orcs are doing fine. Dwarves could confederate with every other dwarves including Angrund (i dont really agree with major faction being assimilated by another major but...) and Skarsnik rallied Grimgor so both factions are now super power of equal strength (ranked 3 for dwarves and 4 for orcs)

    Guys why don't you play a hundred time and makes some statistics ?
  • HarryB922HarryB922 Posts: 46Registered Users
    After hearing all the tales of Greenskins run rampant after the latest patch I started a new campaign as Kroq-Gar on Hard. After taking out Kalida, Queek and Setra I turned north hoping for a nice war against the Greenskins, but the Dwarves were actually doing quite well. I took out the Orc settlements up to Karak Eight Peaks, the rest were already under dwarven control. I think we will need to see a large sample size of campaigns to see exactly what the balance is like.
  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 831Registered Users
    This is going to rely heavily on random luck. It's a hard thing to balance.

    If Grimgor, or one of the other LL's, has a good run, they rapidly confederate the other greenskin factions because of the boosted diplomacy modifier for being more powerful. If they all stall out, the greenskins get massacred rapidly by superior dwarf units and the dwarf LL's blob off the free kill minors. If multiple greenskin LL's have a good run, you probably get the best circumstance possible, a powerhouse presence, but not an overwhelmingly dominant one that rapidly unified to a single force.

    I see no way to get a predictably even outcome from this complex system as it stands. Even if they perfectly balance the factions, the complexity of managing fightiness, and the differences in diplomacy, mean the greenskins have to be less successful on a typical run, but will typically be completely overwhelming when they run away with it.
  • LazykingLazyking Posts: 27Registered Users
    Well i noticed Greenskin expantion when i played with Tretch and invaded Bretonnia. They where as long as there! Conquring the whole world almost. But that didnt bother me then since i could ally them.

    But the game breaks if you have an aggressive AI neighbour spawning out armies for free because thats what the AI does, they dont pay upkeep... How good you are in the game you cant win against a sea of enemies when you play by the book. The game turns into some stale tower defence game.
  • PrayPray Posts: 1,110Registered Users
    Vampire race
    High elf
    Greenskin

    need nerf

    Empire
    Bretonian

    need buff
  • Sebor02Sebor02 Posts: 281Registered Users
    In my last playhrough the greenskins fell as number 1 power and having the dwarves down to 3 regions to around 6 regions and the dwarves are now at 17 regions. I am playing settra and they made peace so they could fight me.

    The real reason the dwarves prevailed though was because the super powered vampire counts who own 76 regions now. They are allied with the dwarves and fought together against the greenskins.

    Lothern and mazdamundi did similar well with malekith being down to 3 regions.

    Then there are the woodelves with 21 regions.

    Empire, Norscan and brettonia factions are all gone it seems.

    1 big surprise is tretch holding out woth 13 regions.
  • SpectralAleSpectralAle Posts: 36Registered Users
    Even tho the greenskin have more settlments now their autoresolve still sucks hard.
    This leads to their inevitable demise in the late game when the dwarfs start producing endgame armies.
    I think the current state of the AI greenskin is OK, this is how they're supposed to feel - overwhelming.
    Before they used to die by turn 50.
    What bothers me more is the vampires always eliminating all the factions near them and eventually even beating the norsca.
  • robdougherty1984robdougherty1984 Posts: 270Registered Users
    I think the main issue actually in terms of ME developing into a decent, balanced world lies with the Empire. I just recently started using a mod that allows you to stop Empire states from warring with each other and I've since had 2 ME campaigns:

    Tomb Kings (Settra)

    I was strength 1 holding all of the southlands and a portion of the badlands, HE had all of Ulthuan, DE had naggaroth and most of Norsca, Angrund did better than Dwarfs and ended up holding Karak Norn, their start location, Karak Hirn and Zufbar. Empire held most of the Empire up to Kislev. Von Carsteins held Averland, Stirland and Sylvania whilst VC ended up with a small mountain kingdom. Greenskins held most of the Badlands, Border Princes and Tilea. Lizardmen also seemed to have survived well but I haven't ventured to Lustria to see what exactly. Wood Elves have most of Bretonnia with Bretonnia just hanging on to Couronne and Marienburg.

    Current (Wood Elves Orion)

    I'm at turn 146 so far, I hold all of Athel Loren, Parravon, Carcassone and Estalia at strength rank 1. Greenskins at 2 with all of the Badlands, Bordern Princes and Tilea. Empire at 3 with most of the Empire. DE 4 with most of the north on both continents and HE 5 with all of Ulthuan. Dwarves seemed to struggle more in this game VC and Von Carsteins still going strong. Every race has at least the major factions left and only the Greenskins and Wood Elves have 1 faction because of confederation.

    Generally it seems to me that if the Empire isn't as fractured the VC don't run rampant. Greenskins do better than before but don't just steamroll Dwarves. Elves are all good, Bretonnia now are MUCH better at surviving. For me with this Empire mod and the Rise of the Beastmen mod by the same guy giving the Beastmen a fighting chance later in the game I'm pretty happy with the balance of ME now. That guy's made my game tons more enjoyable with his faction mods, I may have to try his Wood Elf and Skaven ones next.
  • CA_NicCA_Nic The Creative Assembly Posts: 3Registered Users, CA Staff
    This is very valuable feedback, keep it coming. Describing your experiences helps us to create a much more accurate picture of the game state.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Posts: 463Registered Users
    psychoak said:

    This is going to rely heavily on random luck. It's a hard thing to balance.

    Very true, I've played through turns 1-50 of the Empire ME campaign several times, and it's played out quite differently each time. What matters is how you respond to the randomness. e.g. If I see that Greenskins are cleaning up the Badlands, I try to deploy a 10-stack to support the Border Princes and Dwarfs by turn 40 or so, because it's only a matter of time before gobbos come flooding through Blackfire Pass. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

    The only really annoying random element in the Empire campaign is whether Bretonnia curbstomps the Skullsmasherz on turn 2 or not (50/50 odds or more). If Bretonnia wipes out the Skullsmasherz, they will immediately capture Marienburg on turn 3. If not, the Skullsmasherz will be a constant threat to Eilhart. It's not especially difficult to deal with the Orc assaults once Eilhart is walled, but it does require some extra resources. I've been harping on this in several threads, but I feel strongly that a 50/50 AI Bretonnia battle on turn 2 shouldn't have such a major effect on the early Empire campaign. I realize the Skullsmasherz and Marienburg are meant to be "easy pickings" in the early Bretonnia campaign, and that's fine. But ultimately the Empire campaign is far more challenging and enjoyable if the Skullsmasherz and Marienburg survive past turn 3.
  • drTjorndrTjorn Posts: 11Registered Users
    edited February 13
    I have had the exact same experience as the OP. I have started several campaigns with the dwarfs just to see if the outcome differs but it never does. The orcs produce ridiculous amounts of armies and waaaghs, the dwarf ai factions are whiped out early (especially Varr and Kadrin), and greenskins faction rank nr 1. Even if I defeat their armies and they get pushed back to low rank, they are back to nr 1 within 10 turns and new full stack armies invade.

    And as some have pointed out in other threads, the AR seems broken too, because the dwarfs cannot win no matter the army compositions.

    This needs balansing badly. Its worse now than before, but now its in favor of the greenskins instead of the dawi.
  • Blissey1Blissey1 Posts: 56Registered Users
    I recall a game I had as kahlida where the greenskins had literally two provinces yet were still rank 1 strength somehow...
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Posts: 4,544Registered Users
    I have beaten the greenskins in less than 30 turns as Dwarfs.
    Reading all the feedback about strong Greenskins I decided to destroy the ASAP and didnt really built anything besides 2 armies conquering north and south.

    I was however really lucky since Grimgor was sacking his starting enemy for 15 turns (every 3 turns or so he went back sacking the settlement again) and even then it was a lot of difficult fighting against the savage orc tribes.
  • BetoBotBetoBot Posts: 32Registered Users
    edited February 13
    In my experience, aside the dawi dominance, I have seen every mayor faction have a chance to be predominant except:

    - skaven: always weak with no more than 5 cities... very easy enemy .... and the ia in the north sucks because even with so many demolished forts from the chaos wars they do not even try to rebuild....

    - dark elves: HE and lizards end always fighting and killing them... they can get strong but the both are too much.

    -beastmen... haha.. poor beastmen.. what can I say. .. they live to give us a enjoyable fight from time to time..
  • NinjasoupNinjasoup Junior Member Posts: 93Registered Users
    I'm having a great Dwarf campaign, playing on very hard and struggled on the first 70 or so turns to hold back the green tide, I'm starting to make progress now though.
    For a dwarf campaign the new greenskin ai is really fun!
    The only issue I have with this campaign was the problem when confederating angrund Belegar was wounded so I can't reciruit him this game, a fix on this would be nice.
  • blaatblaat Junior Member Posts: 1,794Registered Users
    Ninjasoup said:

    I'm having a great Dwarf campaign, playing on very hard and struggled on the first 70 or so turns to hold back the green tide, I'm starting to make progress now though.
    For a dwarf campaign the new greenskin ai is really fun!
    The only issue I have with this campaign was the problem when confederating angrund Belegar was wounded so I can't reciruit him this game, a fix on this would be nice.

    the cannot recruit confederated LL when wounded is working as it should due clutter in the recruit pool with the immortal lord and heroes
    aBS excuse if you ask me but that is what CA said

    snip

    It's much easier and more fun to get engrossed in lore that takes itself seriously and tries to make sense within its own frame of reference.

    the reason I prefer LOTR over warhammer fantasy and 40k

    I am dutch so if you like to have a talk in dutch shoot me a PM :)
  • LennLenn Posts: 3Registered Users
    Playing as Empire on VH. at turn 93, here is the power rank in my game:

    1. Dark Elves leading with 33 settlements

    2. Greenskin confederated every other GS factions and have 31 settlementss,

    3. Me as empire, just managed to completely wiped out Vampire Count/Von Carstein and own most of empire province. 23 settlemetns total

    4. No idea, haven't meet them yet.

    5. High Elves , surprisingly they have 32 settlements, yet rank only No. 5.

    6. Wood Elves, with with only 5 settlements

    7. No idea, haven't meet them yet.

    8. Dwarves with 8 settlements. They were once nearly wiped out with only 4 or 5 settlements, but managed to confederate Clan Angrund to make a small comeback.

    I have somehow managed to stay out of Greenskin/Dwarves war because GS never declared war on me and I decided to focus on vampires first. Greenskin is now taking on Kroqgar. Khalida, all remaining dwarven factions, Tilea, Woodelf and Argwylon at the same time.




  • Brigantius101Brigantius101 Posts: 62Registered Users
    BetoBot said:

    In my experience, aside the dawi dominance, I have seen every mayor faction have a chance to be predominant except:

    - skaven: always weak with no more than 5 cities... very easy enemy .... and the ia in the north sucks because even with so many demolished forts from the chaos wars they do not even try to rebuild....

    - dark elves: HE and lizards end always fighting and killing them... they can get strong but the both are too much.

    -beastmen... haha.. poor beastmen.. what can I say. .. they live to give us a enjoyable fight from time to time..

    Skaven have surprised me. Tretch in particular has carved out quite an empire for himself in my Dark Elf campaign beating the elves around him and then going to war with Morathi. I think that Queek has the hardest start for them mostly due to positioning.
    Brigantius101, formerly known as The_Emperor over at the Org.

  • misunderstoodvampiremisunderstoodvampire Posts: 122Registered Users
    Greenskins are in a perfect state to me. They wage war on the entire world and yet are actually beatable unlike the Dawi tide was.
  • RzeźbiarzRzeźbiarz Junior Member Posts: 98Registered Users
    I 've played a couple of campaigns both in single and multiplayer. Dwarves are very hard now but manageable, I play on very hard and I struggle on multiplayer campaign with them, In single is easier because you get hero from quest really fast. Only thing that annoys me in the dwarves campaign is auto resolve, I need to fight every battle even minor ones against 4 or 5 units because AI always eliminate atleast one of my unit(usually artillery), minor dwarves all also to fast eliminated Kadrin und Barack var are unable to survive without my effort. Zhufbar also struggle against vamps. It's very fun and immersive campaign to fight endless orcs stucks. The thing that bother me most are:
    - auto resolve
    - vampire always beating empire
    - empire in every campaign struggle for theirs life
    - HE need more enemies, after Tomb Kings patch Dark Elves have more enemies(very good they don't steamroll like before) and aren't match for combined HE Lizardmen alliance. Mazdamundi alone have enough enemies and sometimes have a hard start but HE Tyrion always unite Ulthuan.i think that some Norsca, Skaven or Orcs should more often attack Ulthuan. Maybe more random orc spawn, or extra Norsca raiders.
  • VladoffVladoff Posts: 36Registered Users
    Pray said:

    Vampire race
    High elf
    Greenskin

    need nerf

    Empire
    Bretonian

    need buff

    The high elves are really strong, but I think that if we weaken them, Malekith will rule the world. At the beginning of the game DE is not so strong, but after 80-100 moves they are awakened. They argue for the first place in the list of the strongest with Zelenokozhimi and Lautern. Simply if Naggarond had more world contacts, he would be a greater threat than greenskins. So I think that HE does not so much need a nerf
  • HarryB922HarryB922 Posts: 46Registered Users
    Playing a Dwarf campaign on Hard. 43 turns in and really enjoying the battle against the Greenskins. I would agree that the Empire needs some love, but I wouldn't want to see the Greenskins get nerfed. This is how I think they should be on the campaign; a fun challenge and a big threat to the world.
  • KlausTheKatKlausTheKat Posts: 318Registered Users
    In my current VH Teclis Campaign at around 160 turns in.

    Greenskins annhilated the Dawi and Clan Angrund and pushed as far north as Talabecland but were stuck fighting Vamps for many many turns. Rank 1 Tyrion is seiging Naggarond with all territory south of there to Quintex held by him, barring the desert provinces still held by Khatep. (Rictus having been eliminated only a few turns ago)

    The Southlands are dominated by Settra with the Last Defendors and Arkhan holding only a few provinces each.

    Teclis, having pretty much rid Lustria of any corruptive forces, has begun the reconquest of the old world. Splitting the massive Greenskin Empire through the middle by claiming the former Tilean and Border Prince Territory. From this beachhead he has pushed into the Badlands, razing Ekrund Province. The plan is to for Teclis to heavily weaken the Greenskins cities and rally what remains of the Dwarf race and see if they can reconquer their homeland. (via rebellions)

    The Empire, reinvigorated by seeing the Greenskin Juggernaut start to stall has been reclaiming its cities one at a time. The Vamps, staying true to form, are opportunistically land grabbing weak territories as and when possible.

    The only surviving Dwarfs are the Prospectors in the southlands, happy to share borders with their Khemrian allies and the huge Kraka Drak empire which has spread all over the former Norscan and Kislevite provinces (with some prompting and cash incentives courtesy of Teclis).

    Bretonnia, as well as having all Bretonnian territory under control has made gains in the former Middenland/Nordland territories and seems to be happy just protecting its borders for now.

    Hell of a fun campaign.
    My System Specs:
    OS: - Win10 64bit
    GPU: - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980ti
    CPU: - Intel i7 6700k
    RAM: - 16GB Corsair DDR3
    SSDD: - Kingston SV300S37A 120GB
    HDD: - Western Digital 2TB
    Display: - Wasabi Mango UHD430 4k 43" and/or BenQ W1110 1080p 3D Projector
  • GingerRoeBroGingerRoeBro Senior Member Posts: 1,591Registered Users
    edited February 13
    CA_Nic said:

    This is very valuable feedback, keep it coming. Describing your experiences helps us to create a much more accurate picture of the game state.

    Yes please buff beastmen ai. If you don't believe ask one of y'alls testers the last time they saw a beastmen horde get a brayherd or have bestigors in it?

    (My point is they don't even last long enough to get that t4 unit without mods and the brayherd is maybe once in a campaign seen.)
  • madskittlsmadskittls Posts: 270Registered Users
    With my game as Dwarfs, it seemed that whenever an Orc faction lost their army they would confederate. Except the bloody spears, they were in it to win it... Anyway Scabby Eye confederated after I took one of their minor settlements and destroyed their army. They had 3 other settlements including Barak Varr. Totally understandable, but then the Bloody Hands confederated with a full province, while I was besieging the capital of the Greenskins, which I thought was weird. Also I found it weird that Broken Jaw confederated with them as I thought they started out at war...
  • GrandChamp89GrandChamp89 Senior Member Posts: 1,505Registered Users
    I honestly have no idea why CA doesn't balance AI vs AI auto resolve based on settlements owned. That way we don't get 3 factions owning the world. Say after 12 settlements they get increasingly bad vs other AI in auto resolve.

    Would make it more bearable as the player too, since you don't have to fight a faction with infinite armies on steriods.
    "It's the hottest fire that forge the strongest steel"
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