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GS vs Tomb Kings

UniverseBearUniverseBear Posts: 44Registered Users
I keep hearing people say that GS and Tomb Kings is a bad matchup for GS because they don't have much that can take out big armored constructs and the Ushabti Greatbows rip infantry to shreds. I decided to do some tests and took to the custom battle mode to see how effective units could be against them. For the purpose of the tests I kept each side at a similar cost give or take 100 gold sometimes.

First I tested possible solutions against large heavily armored constructs.

The Sphinx of Usekph:

6 rock lobbas . Result: Pitiful, most of the rock missed and almost no damage was done before the sphinx was ripping through my lobbas.

3 gobbo flyers (whatever the hell they're called): Better but still awful. At least they could hit sometimes but they didn't do much damage. Definitely not any kind of reliable solution. (Wasn't too surprised by either of these).

The spider queen: Beat the sphinx of Usekph. A heavily armored monster being used to beat a heavily armored monster? Who would of thought? The spiderlings helps lower the sphinx's morale and confused his attacks. I tried a straight fight without spiderlings and still won.

2 units of savage orc big 'uns: Surprisingly they wrecked the Sphinx. Really quickly. I thought it wouldn't work that well with only 8AL but they went to town on the thing. Lost 30 Big 'Uns before the Sphinx was dead.

2 units of savage orc big 'uns board riders (whatever the f): also took it down. Tried it with cycle charging but still lost more health than with just the infantry variety surprisingly.

Tried rusty arrers, mangy mauraders,2 gobbo arrers and a 2 groups of gobbo spears and the sphinx got taken down pretty quick. The sphinx never even made it to my 2nd line of gobbos.

Regular Necrosphinx

Tried a regular giant spider: It beat the sphinx pretty soundly.

Hierotitan

Tried a giant: The giant died (unsurprisingly) but it got the Hierotitan to about 1/6th of it's health. Considering the Hierotitan is 400 more than the giant I think that was pretty decent.

Giant Spider: The spider won but it was pretty close so I think it could go either way.


Khemrian Warsphinx:

Giant: The giant got WRECKED. The Warsphinx's animations actually knock the giant down quite a bit and it's archers continually pump out damage while the giant is lying on the ground. I was not impressed.

Giant Spider: About even. Lost one, won one.



But of course it's all well and good to say "counter big armored constructs with big armored monsters" but tomb kings get the greatbows which wreck armored monsters so it's not always viable even though I think the spiders are more effective by just a little bit on a 1v1 situation. So what counters greatbows?

For these tests I tested against 1 unit of chosen of the gods and 1 unit of regular greatbows.

I tried lobbas: Got wrecked

I tried flyers: Got slightly less wrecked

I tried savage orc big 'uns. They made it and took down the greatbows but one squad was down to about a 3rd of it's health by the time it engaged and in a real battle there would be a whole front line to get through. Obviously if you can flank and get in they will beat the greatbows (but I think everyone already knows this).

6 wolf riders: They took down the greatbows. Once the greatbows were surrounded they crumbled pretty fast. But in a real battle what are the odds of sneaking in 6 wolf riders into the greatbows? Still useful to tie them up with one group of wolf riders though while your front line advances.

5 savage orc arrers: They won but it wasn't pretty. Each squad was down to about 1/3rd or less of health. If the comp had focused fired I think it would have been a loss (I did use focus fire).

4 savage orc arrers: The greatbows wrecked them.

5 gobbo arrers and the rusty arrers: They absolutely wrecked the ushabti. I think this is a viable counter.

6 gobbo archers: They still killed the ushabti but they were pretty tattered by the end. Still, 6 gobbo archers cost 2250 and the chosen and regular greatbow together were 2350. Gobbo arrers only get 1 AP but all units get a garunteed 1 dmg so really it can be considered as 2 AP. 2 damage x 120 means you have the potential to do 240 dmg per volley. That times six and you can actually take the ushabti down. This still took awhile though, the 2nd group of Ushabti ran out of ammo at the end so not sure it's that useful in real life.

For fun I tried 8 gobbo spears. I just sat them there taking fire. The greatbows didn't even get rid of one unit and then were out of ammo and got wrecked. Silver shields and huge number for ya.





So what does this tell us?

I think it tells us that GS do have the tools to deal with greatbows and large armored constructs but it takes some good tactics and micro. Savage Big Un's will wreck constructs...somewhat surprisingly but also GS can bring equally powerful armored monsters themselves. Rusty arrers and a couple gobbo arrers will take out a greatbow unit of similar cost pretty easily (the chosen less easily but they can still do it). If you bring big un's and rusty/gobbo arrers the Tomb Kings player will have to decide wether to take out the big un's to save the constructs or the arrers to save the greatbows. Either way you have something to work with, either a good frontline of construct disassembling orcs or a greatbow counter squad. Same can be said of bringing heavily armored monsters/arrers.

Usually you want to try and get archers to hit low priority targets but even more so with greatbows. They're low archer and ammo count mean they really need to be hitting valuable targets to get value. If you can get them to shoot at gobbo spears, either by keeping most of your army hidden in forests or by continually moving your army back but keeping the gobbos in range of the greatbows then you've already won the greatbow war. Each arrow they fire into a gobbo spear unit is wasted value.

I'm no top 100 player or anything but I think if you had Azhag on his wyvern (it is fast enough to dodge greatbow fire), rusty arrers with some gobbo arrers, several savage big 'uns, couple gobbo spears to eat greatbow fire early game, orc boy big uns and maybe some skulkers should tomb guard make an appearance (I figure the stalk will keep them safe from arrow fire while advancing) and the mangy marauders you would do just fine.

Comments

  • ZerglesZergles Member Posts: 2,765Registered Users
    It seems like just taking a bunch of Bigunz and a healthy number of Night Gobbo archers would be the way to go. Then back them up with a Shaman for buffs and use Azhag to spirit leech.

    The rest of the army could be Night Gobbos for the silver shields and more poison and some skirmish cav.


  • snowflakesnowflake Posts: 80Registered Users
    It's too theoretical. Why do you think Ushi bow will fire your gobbos? No TK player care about gobbos. They will snipe your spider and melt it in a minute and your gobbos will broke when they face undead units. And Arachnarok isn't a shaggoth. if your spider could reach the enemy TK line, you cannot snipe their faster monster with your slow Arachnarok. Warsphinx will ignore it and crush the opposite GS line with terror, and your Arachnarok will stuck and isolated. It always happened in real game.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 567Registered Users
    The basic problem is that all these potential counters require the TK to willingly take a fight they might lose, because the TK units in question are faster, longer-ranged, or both. The Greenskins have no way to realistically force an engagement that favors them - or even an equal engagement, for that matter. What actually happens is that all the Greenskin infantry gets terror-routed and their support units are isolated and destroyed piecemeal.
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Posts: 44Registered Users
    snowflake said:

    It's too theoretical. Why do you think Ushi bow will fire your gobbos? No TK player care about gobbos. They will snipe your spider and melt it in a minute and your gobbos will broke when they face undead units. And Arachnarok isn't a shaggoth. if your spider could reach the enemy TK line, you cannot snipe their faster monster with your slow Arachnarok. Warsphinx will ignore it and crush the opposite GS line with terror, and your Arachnarok will stuck and isolated. It always happened in real game.

    I mean of course it's theoretical but it also shows some possibilities. Your scenarios are also theoretical. As I said you'd want your army either in forest or back behind the range of the greatbows so they have to fire at gobbos. Often fire at will is on and it will waste ammo. A good player would stop that but most players are not that good. I have used this tactic in many online battles and you'd be surprised how often it works. You could also get skirmishers and they'd have to waste ammo on them or just take a bunch of damage themselves at which point who cares if they shoot your big uns?

    Don't take the spider then, take savage orcs and savage orc big'uns. Savage orc big'uns really do melt the constructs and they ignore psych until leadership drops below 50%. Throw in a goblin big boss for leadership buffs to keep it up longer. They also trade surprisingly evenly with Tomb Guard. You don't even need BO's for Tomb Kings matchup.

    I don't think greatbows are that great honestly, they have great range but the regular greatbows don't even dish out much hurt before they are out of ammo. I tested it some more and the 600 gold rusty arrers beat the 1000 gold greatbows on a 1vs1. Greatbows are only really good against high value targets.

    I also believe you could use the spider effectively. Get a gobbo shaman, throw that spell that gives units stalk and you can walk that spider right up to the frontline without so much as an arrow shot in it's direction. Spider has 57 speed, faster then scorps and hierotitans. Both it's attack and arrers have poison bringing the sphinx and warsphinx down to 56 speed (or you could have night gobbo arrers or just night gobbos mixed in with your frontline). Stalk the spider, rush the frontline with your army, summon spiders on the greatbow to tie them up and start working down those constructs with the spider and big'uns. Bring in your rusty arrer gobbo firing line to get rid of the greatbows for good and then also start taking down constructs. Seems very plausible to me. You also have orc boar boy big 'uns who can take down fast constructs.

    I mean no build is going to guarantee you 100% success against any army ever. All I'm saying is there ARE options here.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,107Registered Users
    edited February 13
    I haven't lost a single GS vs TK battle (playing GS) if the TK player brings a balanced build with bowshabtis. Bowshabtis are not a problem at all for GS... Now, if the TK player brings 2 or 3 Warsphinx, 1 or 2 socrpions and makes blobs, it could be really hard to face as GS but it is not only a Greenskins issue... Some TK monsters are OP and I think the rare constructs cap should go down to 2 instead of 3.

  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 664Registered Users
    edited February 13
    I use a frontline of black orcs and savage orc big uns, and rely on a missile line of rusty arrers and night gobbo archers to kill the constructs. Nasty skulkers in the back line are essential to slow down the constructs, cav, and carrion. I actually like grimgor in this matchup, sometimes skarsnik. He synergizes well with nasty skulkers because their smoke bomb will keep him from getting cycle charged, and if he doesnt get knocked down he can lay a walloping on constructs. Also i bring a night gobbo shaman with itchy nuisance and gorkll fixit.

    Btw i think gorkll fixit needs a buff. If it reduced speed and charge bonus more it would give greenskins their answer to large monsters, along with nasty skulkers.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,107Registered Users
    edited February 13
    Black Orcs perform really well but I personally prefer a lot of SOBU units because they are cheaper (you need a big army to face TK) and they are a less valuable target for bowshabtis. Plus they are amazing.

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