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Warhammer + Three Kingdoms = ?

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  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    4uk4ata said:

    Could someone kindly explain what this obsession with Cathay is? What even is Cathay and why are people so obsessed with it?

    I wouldn´t honestly call it an obsession, as there aren´t THAT many people hollering for it. A lot of people think it would be nice, but I think I´ve seen more diehard Chaos Divided fans.

    The problem is how loud the Cathay fans are, I've seen them derail several threads over silly things. The finest example, off the top of my head, is how one threw a tantrum because in Warhammer Fantasy's lore the Dwarves made gunpowder first: instead of Cathay.

    Cathay would be a nice "finale" for the Warhammer Total War series after Warhammer 3 and all of it's dlc is done, but as it stands there's really no room and no real need for them.
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 533
    edited March 2018

    4uk4ata said:

    Could someone kindly explain what this obsession with Cathay is? What even is Cathay and why are people so obsessed with it?

    I wouldn´t honestly call it an obsession, as there aren´t THAT many people hollering for it. A lot of people think it would be nice, but I think I´ve seen more diehard Chaos Divided fans.

    The problem is how loud the Cathay fans are, I've seen them derail several threads over silly things. The finest example, off the top of my head, is how one threw a tantrum because in Warhammer Fantasy's lore the Dwarves made gunpowder first: instead of Cathay.

    Cathay would be a nice "finale" for the Warhammer Total War series after Warhammer 3 and all of it's dlc is done, but as it stands there's really no room and no real need for them.
    Its funny since from my experience, the anti-cathay posters were usually louder in expressing their hatred against cathay. They tend to turn normal healthy discussions with rage and insults (some even managed to get some threads closed).
    Makes me wonder if it's the "cathay" that they despise or something else ;)

    Anyway.. back to topic, as mentioned before, Since Three Kingdoms will be out first, there is no chance to have Cathay as pre-order bonus. We don't even know when is Warhammer 3 gonna be released
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,365
    edited March 2018
    Red_Dox said:


    Besides, we've had plenty of Cathay threads already: the map won't be big enough to fit them.

    Because you know already what will be
    • the game#3 campaign map?
    • the new combo map?
    I mean nobody anticipated so much land coverage for Vortex map, but here we are.

    You really want to bet that only the Dark Lands will form the game#3 map and CA is not being capable of going east a little further to add Cathay? I mean Cathay right there *is* a powerplayer for the worldmap. Not something like some Albion savages barely knowing to make steel or naked jungle babes who have not even a real placement on the ingame map ;)

    ------Red Dox
    Technically, the Game 2 map includes even more than that, since it has Tor Elasor, the Tower of the Stars, and the Tower of the Sun, which are off to the east. It also has Sartosa. So there's even more reason for Game 3's map to include more than the Darklands, Mountains of Mourn, and Chaos Wastes.

    Also, @SudoKnightlyNonsense, the distance from Naggaroth to the Southlands is about the same as the distance between the Dark Lands and Cathay in the canon map. If Game 2's map could include as much as it did, then Game 3 should have no trouble including lands east of the Mountains of Mourn if CA and GW want to go there. (Plus, CA can always shrink and shift geography around. After all, they included the aforementioned islands plus western Albion.)
  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 128
    Would've prefer a throughly rework for game 1 races as a bonus for game 3, empire/beastmen/greenskins still have quite a few units within their army book, empire could also use some new mechanics as well.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,257
    Red_Dox said:

    Could someone kindly explain what this obsession with Cathay is? What even is Cathay and why are people so obsessed with it?

    A human kingdom, greater and older then Empire, far in the east.
    http://warhammer-fb.narod.ru/
    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Cathay

    ------Red Dox
    So great it never had a model.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,903
    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

  • NeverBackDownNeverBackDown Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,838
    Red_Dox said:


    Besides, we've had plenty of Cathay threads already: the map won't be big enough to fit them.

    Because you know already what will be
    • the game#3 campaign map?
    • the new combo map?
    I mean nobody anticipated so much land coverage for Vortex map, but here we are.

    You really want to bet that only the Dark Lands will form the game#3 map and CA is not being capable of going east a little further to add Cathay? I mean Cathay right there *is* a powerplayer for the worldmap. Not something like some Albion savages barely knowing to make steel or naked jungle babes who have not even a real placement on the ingame map ;)

    ------Red Dox
    If we go based off the picture it would be fair to assume the whole world would be included.


    I don't know anything about Cathay but hey if everything is included it would make sense wouldn't it? It's called WARHAMMER Total War. You would expect everything to be included. If Warhammer was missing stuff it would just be called
    TW: OLD WORLD
    TW:NEW WORLD with vortex addon
    TW: EVERYTHING EAST EXCEPT THE EAST FACTION CATHAY

    Sounds about right
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,365
    edited March 2018

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 791

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 6,008

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    One of the most powerful and largest nations of the background material. That's what they were. Where the game is set isn't confirmed in any way and the only east expansion in dataleak map doesn't get close to Cathay.

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
    By the same principal they can make any other minor race important. Why CIN? They would be most work out of all of them. Your definition of promising seems ridiculous to me as they were literally background material which has literally nothing to it other then being fantasy China and with other eastern ones even less. They are not needed.

    If GW hasn't made Lizardmen important it too would have been as senseless to expect their promotion in TWW. But if you want to get technical it also means that Cathay can be made into not fantasy China but an entirely different nation from what it is described as. Like for instance making them inhuman. You make it seem that lore is irrelevant. This is only the case when a faction has a small role to play and after expanding it you end up with a changed nation.

    Making a new race makes the point of acquiring Warhammer pointless. Getting an already written Fantasy setting and then making lore yourself? Why would GW make it since they can't use it on tabletop? Why would they make the eastern races and completely derail from Warhammer's central storylines? Cathay as DLC at best.

    And do tread carefully when talking about lore changes by GW. One time the world blew up. Who knows what they'll do.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 791
    They were background materiel because GW never got around to using them because the tabletop simply wasn't popular enough to ever get to more then 16 armies.

    Total war:Warhammer has been far more popular and is on track to have more content then the tabletop did. Not to mention that total war has it's own needs that need to be satisfied too due to the campaign map. This isn't just a 1:1 adaption of tabletop.

    Selling stuff for old factions simply isn't an option due to how the trilogy is set up. Spending the effort of making cathay on old stuff, just isn't a real option. So adding Cathay to make the new stuff better is the best option. And game 3 would be better off with cathay as the game could use an order aligned race and the additional land that cathay resides on to spice up the map.
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    That isn't even something that is confirmed, it's mildly hinted at best. Cathay mainly sits in it's own lands and cowers behind their "Great Bastion" while the other parts of the world actually step outside of their own lawn frequently, with some even trying to stop Chaos once and for all.

    Cathay is mainly mentioned when GW wants to make one of the major factions get stuff done without actually getting stuff done. The Southland Lizardmen, for instance, nuked the only known instance of Cathay actually stepping off it's own lands without suffering a single loss. The Dark Elves did so much damage to a Cathay city that they had to burn it's remains to the ground and strike it from record. The hordes of Chaos would frequently have a ball-game smashing down the Bastion and causing havoc in Cathay. The only major victory I can think of (besides them sinking a Black Ark, but GW just did that to make the Black Arks seem more scarce) is that they managed to barely hold off against a large Horde of Beastmen under Sayl the Faithless. Let that sink in, they had trouble against Beastmen: Sayl the Faithless held the Chaos Warriors and Norscans back during that battle.

    Besides that, if Cathay was really so important then why did they not get anything since 3rd edition? Cathay could be very interesting, but it should not take the place of the proper and fleshed out factions: simple as that.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 2,639
    I could see the readily available chinese assets substantially reducing the cost of a cathay expansion, through either minor alterations, or flat reuse of basic infantry types.

    I still don't see it ever coming though. Certainly not as a preorder bonus for a game that wont even exist yet. To do Cathay, the map would realistically need to span all the way across anyway, and if they're going to go that far into the weeds with it, they'd do Albion, the Amazons, Vampire Coast, etc. TEB would be a foregone conclusion by now, instead of the maybe it really is.

    If they do decide to just do the whole damned world, then it's sort of a necessity, but that whole area is vaporware. You can't just throw Cathay in, reasonably if you're going to blow out the map that far, you're going to have to do Khuresh and Ind, and neither of those will be able to reuse assets. This is a major art project for, bare minimum, three, utterly non existent factions, who's lore presence and existing TT assets are a minute fraction of what exists for Araby. You'll get halflings first.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 6,008
    psychoak said:

    I could see the readily available chinese assets substantially reducing the cost of a cathay expansion, through either minor alterations, or flat reuse of basic infantry types.

    I still don't see it ever coming though. Certainly not as a preorder bonus for a game that wont even exist yet. To do Cathay, the map would realistically need to span all the way across anyway, and if they're going to go that far into the weeds with it, they'd do Albion, the Amazons, Vampire Coast, etc. TEB would be a foregone conclusion by now, instead of the maybe it really is.

    If they do decide to just do the whole damned world, then it's sort of a necessity, but that whole area is vaporware. You can't just throw Cathay in, reasonably if you're going to blow out the map that far, you're going to have to do Khuresh and Ind, and neither of those will be able to reuse assets. This is a major art project for, bare minimum, three, utterly non existent factions, who's lore presence and existing TT assets are a minute fraction of what exists for Araby. You'll get halflings first.

    And Gnoblar country. There is an army made for it for some reason.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045



    Cathay is mainly mentioned when GW wants to make one of the major factions get stuff done without actually getting stuff done. The Southland Lizardmen, for instance, nuked the only known instance of Cathay actually stepping off it's own lands without suffering a single loss. The Dark Elves did so much damage to a Cathay city that they had to burn it's remains to the ground and strike it from record. The hordes of Chaos would frequently have a ball-game smashing down the Bastion and causing havoc in Cathay. The only major victory I can think of (besides them sinking a Black Ark, but GW just did that to make the Black Arks seem more scarce) is that they managed to barely hold off against a large Horde of Beastmen under Sayl the Faithless. Let that sink in, they had trouble against Beastmen: Sayl the Faithless held the Chaos Warriors and Norscans back during that battle.

    Besides that, if Cathay was really so important then why did they not get anything since 3rd edition? Cathay could be very interesting, but it should not take the place of the proper and fleshed out factions: simple as that.

    That's a bit of a misrepresentation. The Tower of Ashstair sequence involved a significant portion of a Chaos horde (Sayl held his human forces back so he had the plausible deniability of being able to say the Beastmen attacked without order - said plausible deniability is the only reason he wasn't executed by a furious Tamurkhan for squandering a lot of troops) being taken out by the defenders of a minor outpost, which, incidentally, out-magicked a Tzeentchian coven along the way.

    Broadly speaking, there's a tendency in all army books, especially in later editions, to glorify victories of that race and downplay all but the most historically significant defeats. Forming your opinion on Cathay's actual strength from the viewpoint of other race's army books is like forming your opinion of French military history from Albino Blacksheep.

    As for the comment about "proper and fleshed out factions": Who?

    The 'army book' races remaining are down to three.

    Other races which have decent official lists that I know of include:

    Dogs of War: Full list

    Kislev: Full list from an old Citadel Journal, with some additions from more recent publications including the 6E Allied Contingent list and the Warmaster list.

    Vampire Coast: Arguably a full list.

    Halflings: Arguably a full list from a Citadel Journal, but was never intended to be taken seriously.

    Gnoblars: I haven't seen the list myself, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. I get the impression it isn't intended to be taken seriously either, though.

    Araby: Warmaster list.

    Of these, only the DoW and Kislev can even vaguely be considered to be Game 3 content, and even then, neither can really be considered up to standing up to "the full horror of the Realm of Chaos", and DoW in particular is a much better fit for games 1 and 2 (the only reason they'd be in the Dark Lands is taking the road to Ind or Cathay). Getting four races for Game 3, then, pretty much means either Kislev or Cathay.

    And if CA wants to continue producing race packs, this tightens the available list even further. Kislev, in particular, would be perfect for a Norsca-style preorder bonus: a Chaos-themed game is a good time to bring in Kislev, but Kislev is present on the Game 1 and Mortal Empires maps.
    psychoak said:

    I could see the readily available chinese assets substantially reducing the cost of a cathay expansion, through either minor alterations, or flat reuse of basic infantry types.

    I still don't see it ever coming though. Certainly not as a preorder bonus for a game that wont even exist yet. To do Cathay, the map would realistically need to span all the way across anyway, and if they're going to go that far into the weeds with it, they'd do Albion, the Amazons, Vampire Coast, etc. TEB would be a foregone conclusion by now, instead of the maybe it really is.

    If they do decide to just do the whole damned world, then it's sort of a necessity, but that whole area is vaporware. You can't just throw Cathay in, reasonably if you're going to blow out the map that far, you're going to have to do Khuresh and Ind, and neither of those will be able to reuse assets. This is a major art project for, bare minimum, three, utterly non existent factions, who's lore presence and existing TT assets are a minute fraction of what exists for Araby. You'll get halflings first.

    There is more available for Cathay than there is for Albion or the Amazons. There's actually roughly as much on the Cathayan army (if not geography) as there is on that of Araby, despite the existence of the Araby list.

    As for the "if you include Cathay, you have to do Khuresh and Ind"... that's incorrect. It is very easy to set up a map that includes Cathay while not including any of the other Far East regions apart from the Eastern Steppes (which is Hobgoblin and Hung territory). Here's a map I prepared the last time someone made that claim:

  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,365
    Crossil said:

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    One of the most powerful and largest nations of the background material. That's what they were. Where the game is set isn't confirmed in any way and the only east expansion in dataleak map doesn't get close to Cathay.

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
    By the same principal they can make any other minor race important. Why CIN? They would be most work out of all of them. Your definition of promising seems ridiculous to me as they were literally background material which has literally nothing to it other then being fantasy China and with other eastern ones even less. They are not needed.

    If GW hasn't made Lizardmen important it too would have been as senseless to expect their promotion in TWW. But if you want to get technical it also means that Cathay can be made into not fantasy China but an entirely different nation from what it is described as. Like for instance making them inhuman. You make it seem that lore is irrelevant. This is only the case when a faction has a small role to play and after expanding it you end up with a changed nation.

    Making a new race makes the point of acquiring Warhammer pointless. Getting an already written Fantasy setting and then making lore yourself? Why would GW make it since they can't use it on tabletop? Why would they make the eastern races and completely derail from Warhammer's central storylines? Cathay as DLC at best.

    And do tread carefully when talking about lore changes by GW. One time the world blew up. Who knows what they'll do.
    Crossil said:

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    One of the most powerful and largest nations of the background material. That's what they were. Where the game is set isn't confirmed in any way and the only east expansion in dataleak map doesn't get close to Cathay.

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
    By the same principal they can make any other minor race important. Why CIN? They would be most work out of all of them. Your definition of promising seems ridiculous to me as they were literally background material which has literally nothing to it other then being fantasy China and with other eastern ones even less. They are not needed.

    If GW hasn't made Lizardmen important it too would have been as senseless to expect their promotion in TWW. But if you want to get technical it also means that Cathay can be made into not fantasy China but an entirely different nation from what it is described as. Like for instance making them inhuman. You make it seem that lore is irrelevant. This is only the case when a faction has a small role to play and after expanding it you end up with a changed nation.

    Making a new race makes the point of acquiring Warhammer pointless. Getting an already written Fantasy setting and then making lore yourself? Why would GW make it since they can't use it on tabletop? Why would they make the eastern races and completely derail from Warhammer's central storylines? Cathay as DLC at best.

    And do tread carefully when talking about lore changes by GW. One time the world blew up. Who knows what they'll do.
    My intended point wasn't that lore is irrelevant, which it absolutely isn't. My point was that Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone. GW can change or add to it whatever they want.

    If GW wants, they can do whatever they want with any race. That doesn't mean that these races aren't long shots to see added to the game, but it means that a lack of lore doesn't automatically make seeing them totally impossible. Very unlikely? Sure, but not impossible.

    CA and GW have already worked together to create brand new lore for these games: Nehekharan Warriors and Horsemen never existed before the Tomb Kings DLC. Khatep and the Heirotitan never had a visual design before. Wulfrik used to have more pallid skin like a zombie on the tabletop. Etc. All of these additions and changes were made by CA and GW working together.

    And why is fleshing out background races pointless if GW okays it? How does it take away from already existing races or "derail" the main storylines of the Old World and the western lands? I think adding more races benefits other races' campaigns as it gives them more different enemies to fight instead of roster clones.

    And yes, I am aware of the End Times and I don't like it, but that was a destroy-the-world-and-franchise event. Fleshed out non-armybook races would just be new races to flesh out obscure parts of the lore and make the game more fun.
  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 128

    Crossil said:

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    One of the most powerful and largest nations of the background material. That's what they were. Where the game is set isn't confirmed in any way and the only east expansion in dataleak map doesn't get close to Cathay.

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
    By the same principal they can make any other minor race important. Why CIN? They would be most work out of all of them. Your definition of promising seems ridiculous to me as they were literally background material which has literally nothing to it other then being fantasy China and with other eastern ones even less. They are not needed.

    If GW hasn't made Lizardmen important it too would have been as senseless to expect their promotion in TWW. But if you want to get technical it also means that Cathay can be made into not fantasy China but an entirely different nation from what it is described as. Like for instance making them inhuman. You make it seem that lore is irrelevant. This is only the case when a faction has a small role to play and after expanding it you end up with a changed nation.

    Making a new race makes the point of acquiring Warhammer pointless. Getting an already written Fantasy setting and then making lore yourself? Why would GW make it since they can't use it on tabletop? Why would they make the eastern races and completely derail from Warhammer's central storylines? Cathay as DLC at best.

    And do tread carefully when talking about lore changes by GW. One time the world blew up. Who knows what they'll do.
    Crossil said:

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    One of the most powerful and largest nations of the background material. That's what they were. Where the game is set isn't confirmed in any way and the only east expansion in dataleak map doesn't get close to Cathay.

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
    By the same principal they can make any other minor race important. Why CIN? They would be most work out of all of them. Your definition of promising seems ridiculous to me as they were literally background material which has literally nothing to it other then being fantasy China and with other eastern ones even less. They are not needed.

    If GW hasn't made Lizardmen important it too would have been as senseless to expect their promotion in TWW. But if you want to get technical it also means that Cathay can be made into not fantasy China but an entirely different nation from what it is described as. Like for instance making them inhuman. You make it seem that lore is irrelevant. This is only the case when a faction has a small role to play and after expanding it you end up with a changed nation.

    Making a new race makes the point of acquiring Warhammer pointless. Getting an already written Fantasy setting and then making lore yourself? Why would GW make it since they can't use it on tabletop? Why would they make the eastern races and completely derail from Warhammer's central storylines? Cathay as DLC at best.

    And do tread carefully when talking about lore changes by GW. One time the world blew up. Who knows what they'll do.
    My intended point wasn't that lore is irrelevant, which it absolutely isn't. My point was that Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone. GW can change or add to it whatever they want.

    If GW wants, they can do whatever they want with any race. That doesn't mean that these races aren't long shots to see added to the game, but it means that a lack of lore doesn't automatically make seeing them totally impossible. Very unlikely? Sure, but not impossible.

    CA and GW have already worked together to create brand new lore for these games: Nehekharan Warriors and Horsemen never existed before the Tomb Kings DLC. Khatep and the Heirotitan never had a visual design before. Wulfrik used to have more pallid skin like a zombie on the tabletop. Etc. All of these additions and changes were made by CA and GW working together.

    And why is fleshing out background races pointless if GW okays it? How does it take away from already existing races or "derail" the main storylines of the Old World and the western lands? I think adding more races benefits other races' campaigns as it gives them more different enemies to fight instead of roster clones.

    And yes, I am aware of the End Times and I don't like it, but that was a destroy-the-world-and-franchise event. Fleshed out non-armybook races would just be new races to flesh out obscure parts of the lore and make the game more fun.
    Why fleshed out a unimportant race when army book races are still missing their units?i want celestial hurricanum for the empire, snotling pomp wagon for green skins, and ghorgons for beastmen . As it stands now we have very little chance of seeing them, and all these talk of CIN i feel is further decreasing the probability of these units being added one day, and that is why I'm against CIN. Army book races first, add missing units first before some rather insignificant obscure race in the east.
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 533
    Wtfah114 said:

    Crossil said:

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    One of the most powerful and largest nations of the background material. That's what they were. Where the game is set isn't confirmed in any way and the only east expansion in dataleak map doesn't get close to Cathay.

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
    By the same principal they can make any other minor race important. Why CIN? They would be most work out of all of them. Your definition of promising seems ridiculous to me as they were literally background material which has literally nothing to it other then being fantasy China and with other eastern ones even less. They are not needed.

    If GW hasn't made Lizardmen important it too would have been as senseless to expect their promotion in TWW. But if you want to get technical it also means that Cathay can be made into not fantasy China but an entirely different nation from what it is described as. Like for instance making them inhuman. You make it seem that lore is irrelevant. This is only the case when a faction has a small role to play and after expanding it you end up with a changed nation.

    Making a new race makes the point of acquiring Warhammer pointless. Getting an already written Fantasy setting and then making lore yourself? Why would GW make it since they can't use it on tabletop? Why would they make the eastern races and completely derail from Warhammer's central storylines? Cathay as DLC at best.

    And do tread carefully when talking about lore changes by GW. One time the world blew up. Who knows what they'll do.
    Crossil said:

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    Major events? Like maybe something like causing a entire race to change their way of life due to dropping a meteor on them?

    They may have not given names but we have titled characters, in the Dragon Emperor and the Monkey king. Good enough.

    And point? What's the "point" of ogres kingdoms, or wood elves. They need a point to exist? Either way I would think putting one of the most powerful and largest nations of the east into a game about the east, would count as a point.
    One of the most powerful and largest nations of the background material. That's what they were. Where the game is set isn't confirmed in any way and the only east expansion in dataleak map doesn't get close to Cathay.

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.

    And what if GW wrote lore for CIN saying that they actually are important and influential? Would these races still be problematic?

    GW can make any race important and relevant to the world if they so choose. As others have said, Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone like Tolkien. GW's made countless changes and additions over the years, adding and removing lore as they saw fit. They've done it many times before in Warhammer's history, and often with positive results. The best example of this was in the late 90s with the Lizardmen.

    WARNING: LONG-*** POST

    For those who don't know, many years ago, the Lizardmen were of the most minor, useless races imaginable. They were a lone unit of crappy slave infantry in the Slaan army, and their barebones lore talked about how they were ugly, debased, and unintelligent cave-dwellers and slaves of the Slaan Empire, with no dinosaurs or magic to speak of. They weren't a major part of the Slaan lore, and they their art made them look like scaly, inbred goblins instead of the dinosars we know today. They were so pathetically minor that they made Hobgoblins, Fimir, and even Amazons look fleshed out by comparison. (At least Amazons had more than one unit!)

    Then in the late 90s, during 5th edition, halfway through the tabletop game's lifespan and years after Warhammer's status quo was set in stone in 4th edition, GW decided to make Lizardmen important. They totally rewrote and expanded their lore and gave them an entire army's worth of new units in 5th edition. Lots of lore was retconned to make way for them, and fans found themselves facing a very different world than what they'd known.

    Suddenly, where before they were just filthy slaves, the Lizardmen were the servants of the Old Ones themselves, and they had the power to move continents and make magic floating pyramids. Suddenly, the Great Vortex wasn't just a creation of the High Elves. According to the Lizardmen's new lore, without their help, the Vortex would've failed! But why didn't the existing High Elf book mention this? Because apparently the High Elves didn't know the Lizardmen were helping them!

    The Lizardmen even replaced the old Slaan army and models that had existed for years. This is far, far worse than what you're afraid of with CIN. You don't want those races taking resources away from other races, but imagine if a race that existed for years got totally usurped by their slaves and relegated to a Lord choice. Imagine if Hobgoblins took over the Chaos Dwarf roster and lore to the point where the race was now called "Hobgoblins". That's basically what happened in 5th edition with the Lizardmen and Slaan.

    No, wait, it's actually worse: Hobgoblins have more units than the old Lizardmen did, and are higher up the totem pole in the Chaos Dwarf empire than Lizardmen were in the Slaan empire. So the Lizardmen-Slaan takeover was even MORE drastic than a Hobgoblin-Chaos Dwarf takeover would be.

    All of these changes were made at the expense of already existing units and characters. But if you could set the clock back and return the Lizardmen to their primordial form, would you? I wouldn't. I love the depth that the current Lizardmen add to the lore and to battles (Mesoamerican dinosaurs baby!). I'll take them any day over an army of toadmen.

    END OF HISTORY LESSON

    Back to CIN: I think fleshing out the Far East would make the world richer and more fun to explore just like the Lizardmen change did. And unlike the Lizardmen, CIN wouldn't be replacing any preexisting races or units, so it would be very compatible with everything we already have.

    (Also, in my opinion, the Far Eastern races have MUCH better groundwork for making cool and fun armies than the pre-update Lizardmen did if you go by their lore. Cathay has a lot of great lore if you're willing to dig around a bit, and the few snippets we have about the other places like Ind, Nippon, the Hobgoblin Khanate, and even the snakemen of Khuresh are still more interesting and promising than the old Lizardmen lore was.)

    So my question is: If GW could make Lizardmen into such a great race that make Warhammer so much more awesome, why couldn't CA and GW do the same with the Far Eastern races if they decided to flesh them out, especially after the great job they've done translating and creating lore for these games so far?
    By the same principal they can make any other minor race important. Why CIN? They would be most work out of all of them. Your definition of promising seems ridiculous to me as they were literally background material which has literally nothing to it other then being fantasy China and with other eastern ones even less. They are not needed.

    If GW hasn't made Lizardmen important it too would have been as senseless to expect their promotion in TWW. But if you want to get technical it also means that Cathay can be made into not fantasy China but an entirely different nation from what it is described as. Like for instance making them inhuman. You make it seem that lore is irrelevant. This is only the case when a faction has a small role to play and after expanding it you end up with a changed nation.

    Making a new race makes the point of acquiring Warhammer pointless. Getting an already written Fantasy setting and then making lore yourself? Why would GW make it since they can't use it on tabletop? Why would they make the eastern races and completely derail from Warhammer's central storylines? Cathay as DLC at best.

    And do tread carefully when talking about lore changes by GW. One time the world blew up. Who knows what they'll do.
    My intended point wasn't that lore is irrelevant, which it absolutely isn't. My point was that Warhammer's lore isn't set in stone. GW can change or add to it whatever they want.

    If GW wants, they can do whatever they want with any race. That doesn't mean that these races aren't long shots to see added to the game, but it means that a lack of lore doesn't automatically make seeing them totally impossible. Very unlikely? Sure, but not impossible.

    CA and GW have already worked together to create brand new lore for these games: Nehekharan Warriors and Horsemen never existed before the Tomb Kings DLC. Khatep and the Heirotitan never had a visual design before. Wulfrik used to have more pallid skin like a zombie on the tabletop. Etc. All of these additions and changes were made by CA and GW working together.

    And why is fleshing out background races pointless if GW okays it? How does it take away from already existing races or "derail" the main storylines of the Old World and the western lands? I think adding more races benefits other races' campaigns as it gives them more different enemies to fight instead of roster clones.

    And yes, I am aware of the End Times and I don't like it, but that was a destroy-the-world-and-franchise event. Fleshed out non-armybook races would just be new races to flesh out obscure parts of the lore and make the game more fun.
    Why fleshed out a unimportant race when army book races are still missing their units?i want celestial hurricanum for the empire, snotling pomp wagon for green skins, and ghorgons for beastmen . As it stands now we have very little chance of seeing them, and all these talk of CIN i feel is further decreasing the probability of these units being added one day, and that is why I'm against CIN. Army book races first, add missing units first before some rather insignificant obscure race in the east.
    All the missing units in TWWH1/2 are irrelevant to game 3. The contents of game 3 need be new and won't have anything to do in game one. Your best bet is that they make game 1 FLC to satisfy your desire.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045
    talonn said:

    Wtfah114 said:


    Why fleshed out a unimportant race when army book races are still missing their units?i want celestial hurricanum for the empire, snotling pomp wagon for green skins, and ghorgons for beastmen . As it stands now we have very little chance of seeing them, and all these talk of CIN i feel is further decreasing the probability of these units being added one day, and that is why I'm against CIN. Army book races first, add missing units first before some rather insignificant obscure race in the east.

    All the missing units in TWWH1/2 are irrelevant to game 3. The contents of game 3 need be new and won't have anything to do in game one. Your best bet is that they make game 1 FLC to satisfy your desire.
    For better or worse, this is what it comes down to. Hurricanums, Pump Wagons, and Ghorgons are all game 1 stuff. If CA is considering the Game 1 races to be mostly done now, when Game 3 comes around they're probably going to be thinking about unique things to add to Game 3 rather than filling holes in Game 1 races, as much as we'd like those holes to be filled.

    If you want those holes to be filled, better to proactively shoot for them than to try to shoot other things down in hopes that that would cause resources to be diverted to what you want. Myself, I honestly don't think that the race lineup for Game 3, whatever it might be, will have any influence at all on whether the game 1 races get their remaining missing units.

    Well... maybe if they embrace Game 3 as an expansion/direct successor to Game 1, but that doesn't seem to be the direction they're going.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,257
    talonn said:

    All the missing units in TWWH1/2 are irrelevant to game 3. The contents of game 3 need be new and won't have anything to do in game one. Your best bet is that they make game 1 FLC to satisfy your desire.

    I do hold some hope for the missing units if they ever go back and do to Warhammer what R2 is getting now but that comes with one big problem divided into two, money.

    Firstly the license is 10 years, I don't think they can make more content for the game after that without extending it.

    Secondly it would be much harder to add missing units in Warhammer than the factions packs for R2 if that whole "charlemagne" thing was anything to go by.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 6,008
    And then I make obligatory 4 Chaos god follower races comment.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,163
    Isn't the fact that so many races were overhauled, reworked, and redone evidence that CIN is incredibly unimportant? The Undead list was broken apart and yet CIN remains a footnote. LM are reworked. CIN is unimportant. Skaven are created. CIN does nothing. Chaos is redone. CIN stays left alone.

    The only book that hints at CIN doing anything is the OK book that implies CIN might have maybe done something. Or it's a Tyranid. Both are equally valid hypotheses.

    CIN has less content than Araby. CIN has less content than Middenland. Middenland has unique units, lore, and way more material. Amazon's have more of everything than CIN. Albion has more than CIN. Heck, the Astra Militarum of 40k have more rules and equipment in WHFB than all of CIN.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • SerkeletSerkelet Member Registered Users Posts: 360
    MrJade said:

    Isn't the fact that so many races were overhauled, reworked, and redone evidence that CIN is incredibly unimportant? The Undead list was broken apart and yet CIN remains a footnote. LM are reworked. CIN is unimportant. Skaven are created. CIN does nothing. Chaos is redone. CIN stays left alone.

    The only book that hints at CIN doing anything is the OK book that implies CIN might have maybe done something. Or it's a Tyranid. Both are equally valid hypotheses.

    CIN has less content than Araby. CIN has less content than Middenland. Middenland has unique units, lore, and way more material. Amazon's have more of everything than CIN. Albion has more than CIN. Heck, the Astra Militarum of 40k have more rules and equipment in WHFB than all of CIN.

    All of which can change in a day, if GW and CA release together something CIN related. They might have been seen as unimportant by GW but this can change any minute.
  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 791
    edited March 2018
    This is total war. Not a book. We are supposed to take control of nations and make our own stories. What GW decided to focus on in the past is of no importance to this game.

    You know who's rather unimportant to the regions of rome during it's rise. Pontus! Guess who also has a total war faction.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,163
    Serkelet said:

    All of which can change in a day, if GW and CA release together something CIN related. They might have been seen as unimportant by GW but this can change any minute.

    Sure, too bad GW hasn't done that yet.

    You know who's rather unimportant to the regions of rome during it's rise. Pontus! Guess who also has a total war faction.

    This is historically inaccurate. Mithrades IV had a fairly massive war with the Romans. Also Pontus fit on the map. You know what didn't? China. As below, so above.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 791

    Or named characters.
    Or influenced any major events.
    Or ever had a point.

    Any funds funneled into the irrelevancy that is CIN should be rather used to flesh out the legitimate factions and races, period. That's why I play Warhammer.


    Besides that, if Cathay was really so important then why did they not get anything since 3rd edition? Cathay could be very interesting, but it should not take the place of the proper and fleshed out factions: simple as that.
    Because
    MrJade said:

    Isn't the fact that so many races were overhauled, reworked, and redone evidence that CIN is incredibly unimportant? The Undead list was broken apart and yet CIN remains a footnote. LM are reworked. CIN is unimportant. Skaven are created. CIN does nothing. Chaos is redone. CIN stays left alone.

    The only book that hints at CIN doing anything is the OK book that implies CIN might have maybe done something. Or it's a Tyranid. Both are equally valid hypotheses.

    CIN has less content than Araby. CIN has less content than Middenland. Middenland has unique units, lore, and way more material. Amazon's have more of everything than CIN. Albion has more than CIN. Heck, the Astra Militarum of 40k have more rules and equipment in WHFB than all of CIN.

    This is total war. Not a book. We are supposed to take control of nations and make our own stories. What GW decided to focus on in the past is of no importance to this game.

    You know who's rather unimportant to the regions of rome during it's rise. Pontus! Guess who also has a total war faction.

  • SerkeletSerkelet Member Registered Users Posts: 360
    MrJade said:

    Serkelet said:

    All of which can change in a day, if GW and CA release together something CIN related. They might have been seen as unimportant by GW but this can change any minute.

    Sure, too bad GW hasn't done that yet.

    You know who's rather unimportant to the regions of rome during it's rise. Pontus! Guess who also has a total war faction.

    This is historically inaccurate. Mithrades IV had a fairly massive war with the Romans. Also Pontus fit on the map. You know what didn't? China. As below, so above.
    Nobody is suggesting to add Cathay to the current map.

    Also, somebody raised a point that i want to embold. The tabletop game was entirely about the battles. Which factions were fleshed out didn't matter geographically at all, only that GW considered they were cool enough to sell figurines from.

    This is a strategy game with a campaign map. Its needs are very different. This is a game that NEEDS fleshed out factions to add depth to the campaign map. In the table top it didn't matter that the Empire was surrounded by placeholder factions, because you would set them up against Army Books contenders anyways. But here, you actually have to fight Estalia, Border Princes, Tilea and Kislev. If they were fleshed out, the game experience would be much better.

    Same with Cathay. You can have a small map with 4 flavours of Chaos for the 3rd game, or expand the map to the east and flesh out Cathay to add strategic depth to the CAMPAIGN. As Total War players, what do you feel is better?
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045
    MrJade said:

    Isn't the fact that so many races were overhauled, reworked, and redone evidence that CIN is incredibly unimportant? The Undead list was broken apart and yet CIN remains a footnote. LM are reworked. CIN is unimportant. Skaven are created. CIN does nothing. Chaos is redone. CIN stays left alone.

    And there was no mention of the Ogre Kingdoms through most of that, and when the OK book was released, the borders of how much of the Warhammer world was covered by army books moved eastwards. If GW hadn't decided to ditch the setting, Cathay could have been next.
    MrJade said:

    CIN has less content than Araby.

    Geographically, yes.

    Militarily... not as much as you think. There's a lot of information that can be put together on the Cathayan military - enough that you'd probably be able to make a Warmaster list fairly easily without making anything up other than the statistics. Only thing missing is that we don't know much about conventional Cathayan cavalry (we do know that they have stone dog cavalry, though).

    There is a reason why I consider the presence or absence of Araby as a 'litmus test' - they're on roughly the same level, and Araby has a central location that means it's hard to leave out entirely.
    MrJade said:

    CIN has less content than Middenland. Middenland has unique units, lore, and way more material.

    Not really an equivalent situation: Middenland is an Empire subfaction. I'd like to see the Middenland-specific units show up as well, but that would be an expansion to the Empire, not a race in itself.
    MrJade said:

    Amazon's have more of everything than CIN.

    The fact that CA didn't even put their home island on the map aside, there really isn't.

    I've commented a few times that there's enough information on the Cathayan military to at least make a Warmaster army without making anything up which isn't mentioned in the lore.

    Amazons... really don't. You've got a couple of character types, the basic warriors, and the idea of there being a warrior sect in between that takes narcotics to drive them into a frenzy before battle. If there's enough to put together any but the most bare-bones of army lists for them, I've never seen it.
    MrJade said:

    Albion has more than CIN.

    This is completely and utterly ridiculous.

    I have gone through the Dark Shadows over Albion book. A campaign book set in Albion.

    Total mentions of the natives of Albion, aside from Truthsayers, Emissaries, and monsters?

    "The tribes of Men also suffered a similar fate. With the disappearance of the Old Ones and a distinct lack of contact with the outside world they degenerated into a race of warring tribesmen and primitive cave dwellers."

    "The Giants are very protective of the land and attack all intruders who set foot in their realm, and only the tribes of primitive cave dwellers have gained the Giants' trust and they too are a territorial race. What exactly they fight to protect is unknown, but the arrival of other more advanced races on Albion signals a very real threat to their way of life, which has remained unchanged for millenia."

    "In Albion the chariot is a common sight and they often hold competitions to see who is the bravest charioteer."

    "In fact, the locals are famous for their continual whining about the weather - whatever it does it's too hot, too windy or, more often, too wet!" (Probably just poking fun at the British rather than being intended to be taken seriously.)

    "(Albion) is inhabited by a variety of backward and uncouth barbarians who fight continuously amongst themselves and against the many monstrosities that lurk in the depths of their land."

    That's it. The full extent, as far as I know, of the canonical knowledge we have of the human natives of Albion (again, apart from the Truthsayers and Dark Emissaries), described in the campaign book of a campaign set on Albion.

    There's really not a lot there to go on. Barbaric, chariots, and Giants. Maybe you could use a restricted Norscan list with the ice themes and the overtly Chaotic elements stripped out, but I'm saying that more because there's nothing that would contradict that approach.

    Now, if you happen to know any official sources that go deeper into that and might actually be able to make an army out of, feel free to cite them. But I've seen nothing. I've certainly seen a lot more on Cathay.
    MrJade said:

    Heck, the Astra Militarum of 40k have more rules and equipment in WHFB than all of CIN.

    Are you seriously citing the odd "magic" item that is described in a manner that indicates it's actually a piece of 40K wargear?

    Pretty sure all of those were deliberately phased out in the 8E army books anyway.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,163
    Serkelet said:

    Same with Cathay. You can have a small map with 4 flavours of Chaos for the 3rd game, or expand the map to the east and flesh out Cathay to add strategic depth to the CAMPAIGN. As Total War players, what do you feel is better?

    No Cathay. I care more about the combined map than anything else, and making a fun game.

    1. CIN isn't fleshed out at all meaning a disproportionate amount of resources would have to go to making it.
    2. We still have DZ and OK for the game. Saying Chaos only is disingenuous at best, a falsehood at worst.
    3. The combined map was already shrunk, and is dragging around. I'd rather not double it again.

    As a Total War player first and foremostly, I absolutely do not want CIN. From a lore perspective, CIN is a waste. From all possible paths, CIN is a bad idea.

    There has never been a single shred of evidence that CIN was ever thought about by GW.

    All in all, as a Total War player, I would rather have:
    1. Middenland.
    2. Araby.
    3. Kislev.
    4. Other unique Imperial Provinces.
    5. The missing units from the GS roster.
    6. Nagash and a unified undead list.
    7. Amazons.
    8. Albion.
    9. TEB.
    10. A functional mercenary system.
    11. A overhaul of OWE factions to redo mechanics like Grudges and WAAAGHs and add unique mechanics to the Empire.
    12. Beastmen missing units.
    13. A smoother mega-map experience like what is possible from the Laboratory.
    14. More DLC for OWE factions.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045
    edited March 2018
    MrJade said:

    There has never been a single shred of evidence that CIN was ever thought about by GW.

    Apart from there being a shocking amount of information floating around about the Cathayan military for a faction that GW has never thought about.

    Out of curiosity... would it influence your stance if it turned out that GW (or Forge World) had done preparation work for a Cathayan army list that never got published (for whatever reason)?

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