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Balancing Point&Click damage abilities/spells

Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 22,839
I think most people would agree here that point&click damage abilities and spells needs some looking at. It's really lame that one can just overcast an easily applied single Fate of Bjuna and practically delete an expensive elite unit from the game with no cost but WoM, which is in most cases is a way to effective trade for the caster.

So I think there needs to be some sort of balancing element beyond just increased WoM cost. Here are some ideas:

1.Increase the miscast chance for overcast P&C damage spells, if at least for the stronger ones

2.Slow/root the caster while the spell is in effect, that way "sniping" becomes more of a risk

3.Reduce armor/MD of the caster while the spell is in effect, same as above

4.Make those spells more expensive to equip

I think a combination of at least some the points is in order because P&C damage abilties/spells are cancerous to balance as long as we aren't getting a counter-spell system, which won't be arriving until WH3 if at all I'm afraid.

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Comments

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,304
    Make certain spells "channeling" so they can be interupted, this can be for healing spells also.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839
    Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea either and healing spells are next on the agenda as well. Factions who have them are clearly superior to factions who don't (except for VC who pay for it with low stats throughout).

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,304
    edited March 2018

    Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea either and healing spells are next on the agenda as well. Factions who have them are clearly superior to factions who don't (except for VC who pay for it with low stats throughout).

    Not true at all.

    Apart from undead healing should never be taken into consideration of unit balance and should be balanced on case by case basis.

    What if the factions who got healing dont take it? Are they UP? Obviously not.but yeah some healing like cold blooded needs looking at.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839

    Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea either and healing spells are next on the agenda as well. Factions who have them are clearly superior to factions who don't (except for VC who pay for it with low stats throughout).

    Not true at all.
    What part of it?

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,304

    Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea either and healing spells are next on the agenda as well. Factions who have them are clearly superior to factions who don't (except for VC who pay for it with low stats throughout).

    Not true at all.
    What part of it?
    Sorry i edited my comment as i thought its wrong of me to wrote such statement without explanation, i apologise for the ignorance of my response and edited it.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839

    Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea either and healing spells are next on the agenda as well. Factions who have them are clearly superior to factions who don't (except for VC who pay for it with low stats throughout).

    Not true at all.

    Apart from undead healing should never be taken into consideration of unit balance and should be balanced on case by case basis.

    What if the factions who got healing dont take it? Are they UP? Obviously not.but yeah some healing like cold blooded needs looking at.
    My argument is that VC depend on healing way more than other factions due to their unit's sub-par combat stats and could therefore be excluded from eventual negative effects applied to healing spells.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,304

    Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea either and healing spells are next on the agenda as well. Factions who have them are clearly superior to factions who don't (except for VC who pay for it with low stats throughout).

    Not true at all.

    Apart from undead healing should never be taken into consideration of unit balance and should be balanced on case by case basis.

    What if the factions who got healing dont take it? Are they UP? Obviously not.but yeah some healing like cold blooded needs looking at.
    My argument is that VC depend on healing way more than other factions due to their unit's sub-par combat stats and could therefore be excluded from eventual negative effects applied to healing spells.
    Ahh i misunderstood it yes i totally agree on this.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,847
    I´d say, a bit more counterplay should be introduced. An basic dispell ability for an mage would be nice ( costing a bit of WoM) so basically trading a bit of your magic for a lot of the enemies.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839
    As I said, I think a dispel mechanic is, if at all, only coming with game #3 since that would basically require completely rebalancing magic.

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,847
    Well, what about the damage scaling the closer the caster is?
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 458
    seems there is some interest... I wondered about that a while ago, with mixed responses though. I suggested the caster had to remain uninterrupted (interruption to be defined) when casting bjuna, but in exchange have the spell deal non linearly increasing damage, the longer it stays channeled. This way you not only punish longer reaction times, but you also produce some decision making tension from the caster side: should I risk staying longer and deal even more damage ?

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/207290/fate-of-bjuna-simple-counterplay-channeling#latest
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 310
    edited March 2018
    I have to disagree with this post. Though it is true that point and click dmg spells have no direct counter play rather than healing and they not requiere much mental effort , that doesnt mean that these spells are unbalanced. The spells on this game are way better balanced than in the first game and overall the WoM costs for spells are at a good spot. I think that if there is a real problem with some spells its way easier to increase/decrease their WoM cost rather than introducing completely new mechanics.
    This is not table top and we shoudnt expect to have all the mechanics that are on it. Dispell mechanics will just make this challenging game even harder to master, which will discourage new players to even bother playing mp. Plus it will surelly bring new balancing problems or make expensive spells completely unbringable to a mp battle.
    Moreover, those ideas i read before as making the caster have to channel the spell or debuffing its stats wile casting
    will just be a huge nerf to all caster/fighter heroes.
    Post edited by Energyzed on
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839
    Energyzed said:

    I have to disagree with this post. Though it is true that point and click dmg spells have no direct counter play rather than healing and they not requiere much metal effort , that doesnt mean that these spells are unbalanced. The spells on this game are way better balanced than in the first game and overall the WoM costs for spells are at a good spot. I think that if there is a real problem with some spells its way easier to increase/decrease their WoM cost rather than introducing completely new mechanics.
    This is not table top and we shoudnt expect to have all the mechanics that are on it. Dispell mechanics will just make this challenging game even harder to master, which will discourage new players to even bother playing mp. Plus it will surelly bring new balancing problems or make expensive spells completely unbringable to a mp battle.
    Moreover, those ideas i read before as making the caster have to channel the spell or debuffing its stats wile casting
    will just be a huge nerf to all caster/fighter heroes.

    You just equip a caster with FoB, pop it on the enemy's most expensive elite unit and practically delete it from the battle at no cost but WoM without any chance that the target can prevent it. It requires no skill or effort to do it as well. It's worst when the caster has access to a fast flying steed, can just weave in at the beginning of the battle, delete a unit and then just weave out again.

    These abilities/spells are not balanced at all. You trade WoM, which effect nothing but spells, for the destruction of a 1000+ unit. Abilities are even worse since you don't even lose anything worthwhile and even if they're capped, it's still doing free damage for nothing.

    If you have a spell/ability that can have such a massive effect on the battle, it should absolutely require some sort of risk-reward system in place.

  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 458
    I think it's not that much a balance issue than a design one... you definitely can make it expensive enough in WoM or nerf it enough, but then it will immediately switch from problematic to useless. It's hard for me to explain in pro terms exactly why but I don't think you see many guaranteed damage abilities in rts.

    TWW has made progressive move towards counter play though, by increasing the wind up time. In practice I have never seen any player actively denying the cast by pressuring the caster, maybe it happens tough. If my suggestion of potentially interrupting the spell isn't workable, many suggestions here would still increase the counterplay, closer range, caster locked in place, etc
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,626

    These abilities/spells are not balanced at all. You trade WoM, which effect nothing but spells, for the destruction of a 1000+ unit. Abilities are even worse since you don't even lose anything worthwhile and even if they're capped, it's still doing free damage for nothing.

    If you have a spell/ability that can have such a massive effect on the battle, it should absolutely require some sort of risk-reward system in place.

    Thats the beauty of it, take chaos for example, bjuna or fires their fav choice. Or the occasion metal if they want to, no idea but hey diversity.

    So, dont bring $1k+ unit and diversify, like seriously u cant blame them for bringing those to counter ur elite units. U can bring a giant and fault the archers for shooting it.

    Is it a strong spell, yea it is. Then again ure talking about magic. If ur opponent bringing strong spells, like what r u bringing? If ure dwf u got 40% resist anyway
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839
    yst said:

    These abilities/spells are not balanced at all. You trade WoM, which effect nothing but spells, for the destruction of a 1000+ unit. Abilities are even worse since you don't even lose anything worthwhile and even if they're capped, it's still doing free damage for nothing.

    If you have a spell/ability that can have such a massive effect on the battle, it should absolutely require some sort of risk-reward system in place.

    Thats the beauty of it, take chaos for example, bjuna or fires their fav choice. Or the occasion metal if they want to, no idea but hey diversity.

    So, dont bring $1k+ unit and diversify, like seriously u cant blame them for bringing those to counter ur elite units. U can bring a giant and fault the archers for shooting it.

    Is it a strong spell, yea it is. Then again ure talking about magic. If ur opponent bringing strong spells, like what r u bringing? If ure dwf u got 40% resist anyway
    Archers need to actually commit to shooting the giant and be defended while doing so, y'know, it requires actual skill to pull it off. FoB just requires someone to, well, point and click. A 1000+ elite unit down the drain just because someone knows how to use a mouse, wow! "Diversify" by making a 200 spell worth a 1000+ unit? I'll have less of that diversity.

  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    edited March 2018

    I think most people would agree here that point&click damage abilities and spells needs some looking at. It's really lame that one can just overcast an easily applied single Fate of Bjuna and practically delete an expensive elite unit from the game with no cost but WoM, which is in most cases is a way to effective trade for the caster.

    So I think there needs to be some sort of balancing element beyond just increased WoM cost. Here are some ideas:

    1.Increase the miscast chance for overcast P&C damage spells, if at least for the stronger ones

    2.Slow/root the caster while the spell is in effect, that way "sniping" becomes more of a risk

    3.Reduce armor/MD of the caster while the spell is in effect, same as above

    4.Make those spells more expensive to equip

    I think a combination of at least some the points is in order because P&C damage abilties/spells are cancerous to balance as long as we aren't getting a counter-spell system, which won't be arriving until WH3 if at all I'm afraid.


    Don't know about all spells, but for Lore of Death


    Fate of Bjuna:
    1. Miscast chance 50% for base version (since there is no overcast version)
    2. Give it a chance to affect your own units, to be more closer to other damage dealing spells
    3. Decrease casting area to 60m
    4. Increase casting time to 10 seconds. In that case caster would need to be near it's target or target could flee from area of effect. That's probably a problematic suggestion, since CA team wants to standartize everything, so maybe your suggestion with slowing caster could be better alternative, which fits design. If speed debuff would be a thing: -24% speed during whole duration of a spell.
    5. Bigger cooldown
    6. Decrease WoM cost to 16 WoM. Current is quite expensive, especially for Vamps, which need WoM for other stuff, so only Mannfred could somehow compensate its cost when fighting in melee and using Arcane.
    7. Decrease gold cost for all high-tier spells with slight difference: buffs should get most cost decrease, debuffs second, healing third, damage dealing spells last with direct damage spells slightly more expensive, than regular damage dealing spells. As an example: Okkam's Mindrazor -170 gold, Curse of Years - 180, Regrowth -190, Wind of Death 200, Fate of Bjuna 205.

    Spirit Leech:
    1. Miscast chance +25% for both versions
    2. Give it a chance to affect your own units, to be more closer to other damage dealing spells
    3. Decrease casting area to 60m and 180m respectively
    4. Either increase casting time to 7-8 seconds, either add slowing effect to caster (I think -36% speed would be a good thing for Spirit Leech during whole duration of a spell).
    5. Bigger cooldown
    6. Decrease cost to 7/10 WoM
    7. Make it's damage output more stabile and predictable, so there won't be something like 300 damage during first cast and 900 HP damage during second. I think 600-800 damage values are good for nice spot.


    It's worst when the caster has access to a fast flying steed, can just weave in at the beginning of the battle, delete a unit and then just weave out again.

    I can remember only Mannfred is capable of doing so, and his quite expensive lord without shield, which mostly doesn't have other casters in his army as support due to his price and usually suffer from Lord sniping, even on a hellsteed (and most nets have 100m casting area).




    P.S.
    A little bit off-topic, but maybe someone knows.
    Could Vampires have access to Lore of Dark Magic Lore/TT -wise or they only restricted to 3 lores?
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  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,933
    edited March 2018

    Make certain spells "channeling" so they can be interupted, this can be for healing spells also.

    There also needs to be better tells and ways to interrupt. Mitigation tools need to be both better and more prolific, like soul fire is a great concept, it's implementation is absolute trash though.

    Every faction should have soul fire-like abilities.
    But better implemented ofc.
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 515
    edited March 2018
    What they should had imo is:
    The ability of items that increase abilities and spells cooldown too actually stop the spells' channeling (think of malekith's sword, Teclis scroll, the high magic spell wich I forgot the name :x , or khatep lich staff) so we get a pretty cool way too counter those spells as it needs a good awareness ect (like bjuna as it needs 5 sec to cast or even some others if their casting time gets longer like FOD).

    For bjuna (even if I think it's current state is somewhat fine) they can add the probability to simply not deal damages each tick (like spirit leach). Or in a more original way put a huge nerf on it's damages but making this spell more effective on actually injured units (by increasing the damages done depending of the unit's missing health) so it's act more as a final strike and force the player to find other ways to lower the elit unit before using bjuna.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116

    I think most people would agree here that point&click damage abilities and spells needs some looking at. It's really lame that one can just overcast an easily applied single Fate of Bjuna and practically delete an expensive elite unit from the game with no cost but WoM, which is in most cases is a way to effective trade for the caster.

    So I think there needs to be some sort of balancing element beyond just increased WoM cost. Here are some ideas:

    1.Increase the miscast chance for overcast P&C damage spells, if at least for the stronger ones

    2.Slow/root the caster while the spell is in effect, that way "sniping" becomes more of a risk

    3.Reduce armor/MD of the caster while the spell is in effect, same as above

    4.Make those spells more expensive to equip

    I think a combination of at least some the points is in order because P&C damage abilties/spells are cancerous to balance as long as we aren't getting a counter-spell system, which won't be arriving until WH3 if at all I'm afraid.


    Don't know about all spells, but for Lore of Death


    Fate of Bjuna:
    1. Miscast chance 50% for base version (since there is no overcast version)
    2. Give it a chance to affect your own units, to be more closer to other damage dealing spells
    3. Decrease casting area to 60m
    4. Increase casting time to 10 seconds. In that case caster would need to be near it's target or target could flee from area of effect. That's probably a problematic suggestion, since CA team wants to standartize everything, so maybe your suggestion with slowing caster could be better alternative, which fits design. If speed debuff would be a thing: -24% speed during whole duration of a spell.
    5. Bigger cooldown
    6. Decrease WoM cost to 16 WoM. Current is quite expensive, especially for Vamps, which need WoM for other stuff, so only Mannfred could somehow compensate its cost when fighting in melee and using Arcane.
    7. Decrease gold cost for all high-tier spells with slight difference: buffs should get most cost decrease, debuffs second, healing third, damage dealing spells last with direct damage spells slightly more expensive, than regular damage dealing spells. As an example: Okkam's Mindrazor -170 gold, Curse of Years - 180, Regrowth -190, Wind of Death 200, Fate of Bjuna 205.

    Spirit Leech:
    1. Miscast chance +25% for both versions
    2. Give it a chance to affect your own units, to be more closer to other damage dealing spells
    3. Decrease casting area to 60m and 180m respectively
    4. Either increase casting time to 7-8 seconds, either add slowing effect to caster (I think -36% speed would be a good thing for Spirit Leech during whole duration of a spell).
    5. Bigger cooldown
    6. Decrease cost to 7/10 WoM
    7. Make it's damage output more stabile and predictable, so there won't be something like 300 damage during first cast and 900 HP damage during second. I think 600-800 damage values are good for nice spot.


    It's worst when the caster has access to a fast flying steed, can just weave in at the beginning of the battle, delete a unit and then just weave out again.

    I can remember only Mannfred is capable of doing so, and his quite expensive lord without shield, which mostly doesn't have other casters in his army as support due to his price and usually suffer from Lord sniping, even on a hellsteed (and most nets have 100m casting area).




    P.S.
    A little bit off-topic, but maybe someone knows.
    Could Vampires have access to Lore of Dark Magic Lore/TT -wise or they only restricted to 3 lores?
    VC are one of top magic races on TT. Good magic synergy, cheapest 4 level casters, great base lore + special rule called " Forbidden Lore ". With this rule you can use ALL base lores EXCEPT lore of life. Lore of Beasts and Lore of Metal were often picked against several factions in games with big point-cap.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799


    VC are one of top magic races on TT. Good magic synergy, cheapest 4 level casters, great base lore + special rule called " Forbidden Lore ". With this rule you can use ALL base lores EXCEPT lore of life. Lore of Beasts and Lore of Metal were often picked against several factions in games with big point-cap.

    Thanks for info.
    In that case it's even more sad and ironic at the same time, if to count that nearly half of their lore spells don't do well and lore of shadows is quite useless for them at least in MP. At least they have nice synergy with Lore of Death and 2 base Lore of Vampires spells (+WoD/Macabre in rare cases). =\
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • zer0zer0 Registered Users Posts: 325
    idk about spirit leach, 32 WoM worth of spirit leach won't kill a 300 gold big boss
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    edited March 2018
    zer0 said:

    idk about spirit leach, 32 WoM worth of spirit leach won't kill a 300 gold big boss

    Edited. Nevermind. It does deal 528 usually, but sometimes it deals 660 or 132 damage. Really depends. But in general damage output is lower than in WH1. Still could be used as support against strong armored Lords without healing. In other cases could be waste of mana.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839
    It is actually possible to cancel spells if you can cause the caster to fall down while in the casting animation. I think something can be build from there to give P&C spells/abilities an interruptible state while they're active.

    Question, what should it take to interrupt a spell? Should it be on the easy or more difficult side?

  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799

    It is actually possible to cancel spells if you can cause the caster to fall down while in the casting animation. I think something can be build from there to give P&C spells/abilities an interruptible state while they're active.

    Question, what should it take to interrupt a spell? Should it be on the easy or more difficult side?

    If it would imbue interruption as it does with attacking infantry caster, well it could be ability which you could use periodically to break spell cast for a few seconds, but it would give you only few seconds before it would be actually casted as a result, so not much output either (only if some strong avoidable spells/buffs/debuffs would be casted).

    Also it's was possible to interrupt caster in WH1 ( didn't check in WH2) with making him rout, which led to losing WoM as far as I remeber and getting cooldown at the same time without actual spell being applied.

    So it depends from what kind of interruption it would give.
    If it would interrupt casting spell without losing WoM/getting cooldown from opponent side - it could be some common ability.
    If it would give magic resistance - it should be treated as magic resistance ability.
    If it would seriously counter spells including healing, it should be treated as very strong ability.
    Would it counter caster or counter spell? It would be direct counter for specific unit or AoE effect?

    P.S. If it would counter Raise Dead and Nehek, VC would need huge buff on their magic part. Losing WoM to nowhere and getting cooldown, plus crumbling due to no healing would be very painful and summons aren't in nice spot already with current cooldowns. Meanwhile, it's interesting if such thing would work would it interrupt lore effects too?
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 455
    In my mind, the only direct damage spell that is still causing any major issues is Fate of Bjuna. The way that many of the other direct damage spells seem to be balanced (miasma, wrath and ruin, incantation of vengeance, etc) is that they have some sort of extra effect (usually -speed) in addition to the damage, so FoB should be balanced similarly to have some consistency.

    Nerf the damage severely and give it an interesting effect like -melee attack, which I think would fit the theme of lore of death
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,839

    In my mind, the only direct damage spell that is still causing any major issues is Fate of Bjuna. The way that many of the other direct damage spells seem to be balanced (miasma, wrath and ruin, incantation of vengeance, etc) is that they have some sort of extra effect (usually -speed) in addition to the damage, so FoB should be balanced similarly to have some consistency.

    Nerf the damage severely and give it an interesting effect like -melee attack, which I think would fit the theme of lore of death

    Already exists, it's called Soulblight. Fate of Bjuna should keep the damage but be harder to use.

  • LighningstrikesLighningstrikes Registered Users Posts: 154

    I think most people would agree here that point&click damage abilities and spells needs some looking at. It's really lame that one can just overcast an easily applied single Fate of Bjuna and practically delete an expensive elite unit from the game with no cost but WoM, which is in most cases is a way to effective trade for the caster.

    So I think there needs to be some sort of balancing element beyond just increased WoM cost. Here are some ideas:

    1.Increase the miscast chance for overcast P&C damage spells, if at least for the stronger ones

    2.Slow/root the caster while the spell is in effect, that way "sniping" becomes more of a risk

    3.Reduce armor/MD of the caster while the spell is in effect, same as above

    4.Make those spells more expensive to equip

    I think a combination of at least some the points is in order because P&C damage abilties/spells are cancerous to balance as long as we aren't getting a counter-spell system, which won't be arriving until WH3 if at all I'm afraid.


    Don't know about all spells, but for Lore of Death


    Fate of Bjuna:
    1. Miscast chance 50% for base version (since there is no overcast version)
    2. Give it a chance to affect your own units, to be more closer to other damage dealing spells
    3. Decrease casting area to 60m
    4. Increase casting time to 10 seconds. In that case caster would need to be near it's target or target could flee from area of effect. That's probably a problematic suggestion, since CA team wants to standartize everything, so maybe your suggestion with slowing caster could be better alternative, which fits design. If speed debuff would be a thing: -24% speed during whole duration of a spell.
    5. Bigger cooldown
    6. Decrease WoM cost to 16 WoM. Current is quite expensive, especially for Vamps, which need WoM for other stuff, so only Mannfred could somehow compensate its cost when fighting in melee and using Arcane.
    7. Decrease gold cost for all high-tier spells with slight difference: buffs should get most cost decrease, debuffs second, healing third, damage dealing spells last with direct damage spells slightly more expensive, than regular damage dealing spells. As an example: Okkam's Mindrazor -170 gold, Curse of Years - 180, Regrowth -190, Wind of Death 200, Fate of Bjuna 205.

    Spirit Leech:
    1. Miscast chance +25% for both versions
    2. Give it a chance to affect your own units, to be more closer to other damage dealing spells
    3. Decrease casting area to 60m and 180m respectively
    4. Either increase casting time to 7-8 seconds, either add slowing effect to caster (I think -36% speed would be a good thing for Spirit Leech during whole duration of a spell).
    5. Bigger cooldown
    6. Decrease cost to 7/10 WoM
    7. Make it's damage output more stabile and predictable, so there won't be something like 300 damage during first cast and 900 HP damage during second. I think 600-800 damage values are good for nice spot.


    It's worst when the caster has access to a fast flying steed, can just weave in at the beginning of the battle, delete a unit and then just weave out again.

    I can remember only Mannfred is capable of doing so, and his quite expensive lord without shield, which mostly doesn't have other casters in his army as support due to his price and usually suffer from Lord sniping, even on a hellsteed (and most nets have 100m casting area).




    P.S.
    A little bit off-topic, but maybe someone knows.
    Could Vampires have access to Lore of Dark Magic Lore/TT -wise or they only restricted to 3 lores?
    i really like your sugestion
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    Fate of Bjuna is ridiculous.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,947
    Unfortunately healing is also ridiculous. As are certain wind spells.

    Or, to put it differently, some spells are useful and worth bringing and protecting a Mage for.

    Let's not pretend most spells have all that much counterplay anyway.

    The most basic counterplay comes from the range of a spell, which exposes the Mage to danger and makes targeting harder. If you want to give counterplay to Bjuna, decrease its range.
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