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Chaos and Undead: Have they used non-humans?

mw51630mw51630 MemberRegistered Users Posts: 1,594
So I'm not an avid lore-fiend, so I wanted to ask a double question;

How often do non-humans worship Chaos?

How often are non-humans used in the armies of the dead?

Breaking it down a little more; is there a case in the lore of Elves worshipping Khorne? Of dead dwarfs raised in the army of a Vampire?

Humans seem overly represented in the armies of both Chaos and Undead, I assume because the modellers didn't want to make zombie humans and zombie Orks, and zombie elves... etcetera.

And if there aren't cases of these in the lore, is there anything stopping non-humans from worshipping Chaos or becoming undead?




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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,003
    Yes.

    Neferata has animated dwarfs. No race appears to have a special immunity to being animated as undead, except for demons and possibly Slann. Humans are just more common because vampires and necromancers are usually found within or near human communities.

    In the old lore, a substantial minority of Dark Elves, including Morathi herself, were Slaanesh-worshipers. That got retconned, but there is still an example of an Elf turned Champion of Slaanesh in Dechala. I don't know of any Khorne-worshiping elves without going back to really old lore that's been put aside, though.
  • ZilongZilong Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 501
    There's examples of a couple elf vampires in the black library books I believe.

    As for chaos, the Horned Rat is a minor chaos god and there's also the chaos dwarfs who worship another minor chaos god Hashut. So there are at least two major non-human races that are completely devoted to chaos. Plus there's weird dudes like Fimir out there, but are a bit less present in the world.

    The GW stock models for undead and chaos are typically humans yes, but thats more becaue they were mass producing things and didn't really need to diversify. Female chaos champions are a thing, but didn't really have specific models because there wasn't a huge demand. Luckily, modelers could kitbash pretty much any concept they wanted with all the model bits out there.
  • mw51630mw51630 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,594
    Draxynnic said:

    Yes.

    Neferata has animated dwarfs. No race appears to have a special immunity to being animated as undead, except for demons and possibly Slann. Humans are just more common because vampires and necromancers are usually found within or near human communities.
    .

    I'm surprised undead Orcs aren't more common. They've been everywhere, you would think the ground is littered with their bones by now.
    Zilong said:

    There's examples of a couple elf vampires in the black library books I believe.

    As for chaos, the Horned Rat is a minor chaos god and there's also the chaos dwarfs who worship another minor chaos god Hashut. So there are at least two major non-human races that are completely devoted to chaos. Plus there's weird dudes like Fimir out there, but are a bit less present in the world.

    The GW stock models for undead and chaos are typically humans yes, but thats more becaue they were mass producing things and didn't really need to diversify. Female chaos champions are a thing, but didn't really have specific models because there wasn't a huge demand. Luckily, modelers could kitbash pretty much any concept they wanted with all the model bits out there.

    Elf Vampires eh? That's pretty cool, wonder how that happened.

    Yeah I know about Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven, I really meant more like Dwarfs, Elves, Lizardmen, and Orcs. Do the Hobgolins worship Hashut or they still Gork and Mork?

    Sorry my explanation for why modellers don't make zombies orcs is pretty much the same as yours but I worded it vaguely.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    mw51630 said:

    Yeah I know about Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven, I really meant more like Dwarfs, Elves, Lizardmen, and Orcs. Do the Hobgolins worship Hashut or they still Gork and Mork?

    GS are pretty chaos resistance.
    mw51630 said:

    Sorry my explanation for why modellers don't make zombies orcs is pretty much the same as yours but I worded it vaguely.

    Used to have undead orc skeletons alongside some LM back in the 90's in standard kits.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
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  • RazmirthRazmirth Registered Users Posts: 2,233
    Well going by all races..

    Greenskins feel no lure to chaos at all really. This is mainly because chaos can offer nothing to greenskins that they don’t already have. The only god that could possibly interest them is Khorne, but orcs don’t neccesarily kill anyone and anything near them for the destruction of the world. They fight for the sale of fighting, and don’t really need Khorne to help them along. Plus if you read into lore that they were created by the old ones, and are indeed the krork, they were probably made
    By the old ones with some form of resistance to chaos through the groups gestalt psychic ability. Or the 40k example of why red vehicles go faster, why orks can build garbage and make it work while any other race cannot.

    Chaos dwarves are sort of an interesting case. I think they beleive they do not worship chaos exactly, but hashut is s minor chaos god of some form. If you read a lot of their lore and codex from years ago, there is more than a hint that they regret who they have become. They just justify it through survival. And fare enough.

    Morathi was found by anaerion in the capture of a bunch of chaos daemons/followers. If you read novels about malekith, it’s openly stated that she started the cult of excess which is direct workshop of slaanesh. He even confronted her and almost killed her for it, as he personally doesn’t beleive in worshipping the chaos gods. He spared her thinking he would keep her in check, but she still basically pulls the strings in the background. He just thinks it’s all his idea...

    Other then that, I’m not sure. Skaven workshop a minor chaos god, as beastmen worship chaos, but they are creations of chaos, so that’s a given.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,003
    edited April 2018
    mw51630 said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Yes.

    Neferata has animated dwarfs. No race appears to have a special immunity to being animated as undead, except for demons and possibly Slann. Humans are just more common because vampires and necromancers are usually found within or near human communities.
    .

    I'm surprised undead Orcs aren't more common. They've been everywhere, you would think the ground is littered with their bones by now.
    It's probably that humans are simply more convenient. Greenskins don't bury their dead, so there are no convenient graveyards or tombs to raid. The most likely place you'll find dead greenskins if you don't kill them yourself is on a battlefield, and then you've generally got bodies from both sides.

    There's also the element that humans are probably more likely to let a necromancer or vampire set up shop nearby without being disturbed. When humans have rumours of an area being haunted or otherwise inhabited by undead, they usually start to avoid those places, meaning that there's unlikely to be any form of effective response until and unless the authorities learn about it and decide there's a threat. If orcs learn that there may be spooky boyz nearby, though, they're likely to get it in their heads to go looking for them and give them a good krumpin'. There are a few cases in the background of undead-ruled realms in greenskin territory meeting their demise at the business ends of a collection of choppas.
    mw51630 said:

    Zilong said:

    There's examples of a couple elf vampires in the black library books I believe.

    As for chaos, the Horned Rat is a minor chaos god and there's also the chaos dwarfs who worship another minor chaos god Hashut. So there are at least two major non-human races that are completely devoted to chaos. Plus there's weird dudes like Fimir out there, but are a bit less present in the world.

    The GW stock models for undead and chaos are typically humans yes, but thats more becaue they were mass producing things and didn't really need to diversify. Female chaos champions are a thing, but didn't really have specific models because there wasn't a huge demand. Luckily, modelers could kitbash pretty much any concept they wanted with all the model bits out there.

    Elf Vampires eh? That's pretty cool, wonder how that happened.

    Pretty much boils down to "a vampire takes an elf prisoner and decides to give them the Blood Kiss to get them under their control". Elves are just as susceptible to it as humans, they're just not interested in using necromancy to extend their lifespan by choice since their natural lifespans are already so long, and those that are interested in using dark magic to extend them appear to have better options.
  • IzzyStradlinIzzyStradlin Senior Member Karaz BrynRegistered Users Posts: 11,174
    edited April 2018
    Indeed, not only do the undead of other races exist, but Neferata has Dwarfen Wights. Darkblade holds that Elven Wights and Wraiths also exist, and I haven't found anything to challenge it so far.
    Zilong said:

    There's examples of a couple elf vampires in the black library books I believe.

    Draxynnic said:



    Pretty much boils down to "a vampire takes an elf prisoner and decides to give them the Blood Kiss to get them under their control". Elves are just as susceptible to it as humans, they're just not interested in using necromancy to extend their lifespan by choice since their natural lifespans are already so long, and those that are interested in using dark magic to extend them appear to have better options.

    As of the 8th Edition, Vampires are only ever humans. Must say, i've not heard of any from other races before 6th either.
    "Raise them, Necromancer. Set brother against brother. Let's give our hosts something worthy of recording in their pathetic book of complaints, shall we?"
    The Queen of Mysteries, on the Book of Grudges.

    Her voice was as rustling silk. "In the darkness I dreamt of you, cousin."
    "Hawk no longer. My wings are dust and bone. I crawl through time now, like an asp."
    "You took my wings, Neferata. You made me crawl. Now I return the favour. Crawl, cousin. Crawl."

    Team Elize von Carstein


    Warhammer Lore, by Sotek!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH4nPsl2ctS365aEfFBwxbg

    For ease of memory, if we're not talking about cavalry, everything the High Elves have is better than everything the Dark Elves have.

    Izzy's More-Loreful Stats Mod

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1279441247&searchtext=
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,063
    Yes it's part of the reason it likely that GW and CA didn't wanted to add extra models, but the non-humans races who was created by the old ones tend to be much more resistant to mutations then humans, and dwarves and elves tend to be much less attracted to the chance for immortality that chaos and necromancy have to offer, because dwarves and elves naturally have an lifespan that is far above that of humans. Also there is the fact that you don't need to directly worship chaos to empower it, every dark action that associated with the chaos gods empowers them, so the actions of the dark elves and greenskins tend to empower chaos, and even the actions of 'good' factions tend to empower chaos, but usually less so then evil factions.

  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,343
    Draxynnic said:

    Yes.

    Neferata has animated dwarfs. No race appears to have a special immunity to being animated as undead, except for demons and possibly Slann. Humans are just more common because vampires and necromancers are usually found within or near human communities.

    In the old lore, a substantial minority of Dark Elves, including Morathi herself, were Slaanesh-worshipers. That got retconned, but there is still an example of an Elf turned Champion of Slaanesh in Dechala. I don't know of any Khorne-worshiping elves without going back to really old lore that's been put aside, though.

    Wasn't there a notion that Halflings aren`t zombie-material and that they are pretty resistant to chaos too?
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,720
    mw51630 said:


    Humans seem overly represented in the armies of both Chaos and Undead, I assume because the modellers didn't want to make zombie humans and zombie Orks, and zombie elves... etcetera.

    That is it, exactly. Chaos and Undead can be any race. The original Realms of Chaos books had all sorts of random charts for generating your chaos followers from all of the different Warhammer world races.

  • IzzyStradlinIzzyStradlin Senior Member Karaz BrynRegistered Users Posts: 11,174

    Draxynnic said:

    Yes.

    Neferata has animated dwarfs. No race appears to have a special immunity to being animated as undead, except for demons and possibly Slann. Humans are just more common because vampires and necromancers are usually found within or near human communities.

    In the old lore, a substantial minority of Dark Elves, including Morathi herself, were Slaanesh-worshipers. That got retconned, but there is still an example of an Elf turned Champion of Slaanesh in Dechala. I don't know of any Khorne-worshiping elves without going back to really old lore that's been put aside, though.

    Wasn't there a notion that Halflings aren`t zombie-material and that they are pretty resistant to chaos too?
    Halflings are either somewhat or highly resistant to magic generally, but that doesn't preclude them being raised as undead or from worshipping (but likely they are immune to mutation) Chaos.
    "Raise them, Necromancer. Set brother against brother. Let's give our hosts something worthy of recording in their pathetic book of complaints, shall we?"
    The Queen of Mysteries, on the Book of Grudges.

    Her voice was as rustling silk. "In the darkness I dreamt of you, cousin."
    "Hawk no longer. My wings are dust and bone. I crawl through time now, like an asp."
    "You took my wings, Neferata. You made me crawl. Now I return the favour. Crawl, cousin. Crawl."

    Team Elize von Carstein


    Warhammer Lore, by Sotek!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH4nPsl2ctS365aEfFBwxbg

    For ease of memory, if we're not talking about cavalry, everything the High Elves have is better than everything the Dark Elves have.

    Izzy's More-Loreful Stats Mod

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1279441247&searchtext=
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,003

    Indeed, not only do the undead of other races exist, but Neferata has Dwarfen Wights. Darkblade holds that Elven Wights and Wraiths also exist, and I haven't found anything to challenge it so far.

    Zilong said:

    There's examples of a couple elf vampires in the black library books I believe.

    Draxynnic said:



    Pretty much boils down to "a vampire takes an elf prisoner and decides to give them the Blood Kiss to get them under their control". Elves are just as susceptible to it as humans, they're just not interested in using necromancy to extend their lifespan by choice since their natural lifespans are already so long, and those that are interested in using dark magic to extend them appear to have better options.

    As of the 8th Edition, Vampires are only ever humans. Must say, i've not heard of any from other races before 6th either.
    Happens to Eldyra in the End Times, although Lileath intervenes and changes her into the new goddess of death for her sanctuary instead. That's the only example I know of, however, and one I'll accept writing off as End Times sillyness if one is so inclined.
  • IzzyStradlinIzzyStradlin Senior Member Karaz BrynRegistered Users Posts: 11,174
    Draxynnic said:

    Indeed, not only do the undead of other races exist, but Neferata has Dwarfen Wights. Darkblade holds that Elven Wights and Wraiths also exist, and I haven't found anything to challenge it so far.

    Zilong said:

    There's examples of a couple elf vampires in the black library books I believe.

    Draxynnic said:



    Pretty much boils down to "a vampire takes an elf prisoner and decides to give them the Blood Kiss to get them under their control". Elves are just as susceptible to it as humans, they're just not interested in using necromancy to extend their lifespan by choice since their natural lifespans are already so long, and those that are interested in using dark magic to extend them appear to have better options.

    As of the 8th Edition, Vampires are only ever humans. Must say, i've not heard of any from other races before 6th either.
    Happens to Eldyra in the End Times, although Lileath intervenes and changes her into the new goddess of death for her sanctuary instead. That's the only example I know of, however, and one I'll accept writing off as End Times sillyness if one is so inclined.
    See, i'm willing to accept that essentially an Elven version of the Elixir of Life is theoretically possible and it's just never been made because of the reasons given for them not really being interested in Necromancy. I've not read the End Times for this particular instance of silliness and many other reasons, but I understand that's not quite what happens there. I'm also willing to accept that the Everchild being the Everchild but also Tyrion's daughter (even though he's not actually the Chosen of Khaine because Tullaris is) represents an incredibly special case. I just can't.. I just can't take the End Times as a remotely reliable source on anything but Elize von Carstein.

    Anyway, and I appreciate that i'm being very careful here with my phrasing, but as of the 8th Edition, it is very clearly stated in the Vampire Counts' army book that Vampires are humans. And indeed, the Vampiric Halfling mention is omitted by contrast to 7th Edition. The End Times seems to exist in it's own little world, so I do stand by my statement. :D
    "Raise them, Necromancer. Set brother against brother. Let's give our hosts something worthy of recording in their pathetic book of complaints, shall we?"
    The Queen of Mysteries, on the Book of Grudges.

    Her voice was as rustling silk. "In the darkness I dreamt of you, cousin."
    "Hawk no longer. My wings are dust and bone. I crawl through time now, like an asp."
    "You took my wings, Neferata. You made me crawl. Now I return the favour. Crawl, cousin. Crawl."

    Team Elize von Carstein


    Warhammer Lore, by Sotek!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH4nPsl2ctS365aEfFBwxbg

    For ease of memory, if we're not talking about cavalry, everything the High Elves have is better than everything the Dark Elves have.

    Izzy's More-Loreful Stats Mod

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1279441247&searchtext=
  • Mech_4Mech_4 Registered Users Posts: 228
    There's a Dogs of War unit called Richter Kruger's Cursed Company that had the raised skeletons of different races among it's members. Lizardmen, Orcs, Goblins, Dwarfs, Elves and Humans.

    I think in the early editions there was Chaos Orcs, but this was changed later on to greenskins having a strong resistance to chaos. I think greenskins can still get mutations but it'd be more like "Oo! Gork/Mork gave me a new arm fer crump'n humies". Like Chaos Trolls, they're not really controlled by chaos or worship it but they're certainly mutated by chaos.
  • HeruwulfarHeruwulfar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 108
    edited April 2018
    Mech_4 said:

    There's a Dogs of War unit called Richter Kruger's Cursed Company that had the raised skeletons of different races among it's members. Lizardmen, Orcs, Goblins, Dwarfs, Elves and Humans.

    Dang, here I was going "All these answers and no-one mentioned the Cursed Company, I can finally beat the lore buffs on this one!." And then you beat me to it in the last post :p
    Post edited by Heruwulfar on
    -"If you're harpy and you know it clap your hands"
  • AnothaGitAnothaGit Registered Users Posts: 261
    It would be cool if you could raise dwarves in ME. Stuntzombie Thunderers FTW.

  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    AnothaGit said:

    It would be cool if you could raise dwarves in ME. Stuntzombie Thunderers FTW.

    VC zombies can't use ranged weapons due to the crudeness of the reanimation spell.
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  • Horus38Horus38 Registered Users Posts: 929
    The GW Cursed Company Regiment of Renown models have a bunch of undead from different races: lizardmen, dwarfs, orcs, goblins, high elves
  • mw51630mw51630 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,594
    edited April 2018
    Mech_4 said:

    There's a Dogs of War unit called Richter Kruger's Cursed Company that had the raised skeletons of different races among it's members. Lizardmen, Orcs, Goblins, Dwarfs, Elves and Humans.

    I think in the early editions there was Chaos Orcs, but this was changed later on to greenskins having a strong resistance to chaos. I think greenskins can still get mutations but it'd be more like "Oo! Gork/Mork gave me a new arm fer crump'n humies". Like Chaos Trolls, they're not really controlled by chaos or worship it but they're certainly mutated by chaos.

    Now that is dope.

    I guess if the End Times made it semi-canon that Elves can be Vampires, maybe even dwarfs can too?

    EDIT: Lizardmen seems like more of a stretch, they're cold-blooded after all. And Orks are technically fungus. Skaven/Beastmen also would be just like werewolves.

    Also on a logistic level a Vampire probably would never bite anything other than a human/elf/dwarf, as part of gaining powerful vampires is having intelligent servants.



  • funnessfunness Registered Users Posts: 156
    Nagash i beleive used the Skaven to lure whole orc tribes to their deaths, i assumed for Nagash to raise for his plans to rule the world, i dont think the lore went into why but that would be my reasoning.

    I think its more of a 'here is a dead body that i can use to kill something with..." via the normal raise dead... maybe ot turning into a vampire...

    On the TT game i turned dwarfs and elves into undead versions of their type.. ie inf for dwarfs and cav for the elves.
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543
    MrJade said:

    AnothaGit said:

    It would be cool if you could raise dwarves in ME. Stuntzombie Thunderers FTW.

    VC zombies can't use ranged weapons due to the crudeness of the reanimation spell.
    Ummm...zombie pirates?

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie_Pirates

    Yes they would have terrible accuracy and slow reload time but...this quote kinda relays why they can shoot "Though Zombies are not normally known for their ability to shoot straight (or at all), Harkon long ago wove an enchantment that allows them to do just that."

    Harkon is a vampire lord...they are zombies...

    Therefore...a vampire reanimated zombies that can shoot even with the "crudenss of the reanimation spell". Just needed a tweak to get it to happen.

  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    Avadon said:

    Therefore...a vampire reanimated zombies that can shoot even with the "crudenss of the reanimation spell". Just needed a tweak to get it to happen.

    He's not a Vampire Count, he is a White Dwarf armylist all to himself, and further, the zombies couldn't actually hit, as they hit on a roll of 1 or less, but you had to take 1 away from the roll, therefore, without a spell, they still couldn't hit in ranged combat.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
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    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543
    MrJade said:

    Avadon said:

    Therefore...a vampire reanimated zombies that can shoot even with the "crudenss of the reanimation spell". Just needed a tweak to get it to happen.

    He's not a Vampire Count, he is a White Dwarf armylist all to himself, and further, the zombies couldn't actually hit, as they hit on a roll of 1 or less, but you had to take 1 away from the roll, therefore, without a spell, they still couldn't hit in ranged combat.
    Norsca are a white dwarf army...yet CA implemented them into WH 1, 2 & 3...

    Harkon is a vampire...doesn't matter if he is not a count as he is directly from Nehekhara just like Vlad. I already stated Zombie Pirates are pathetic with ranged combat...even the lore states that. But...they can shoot...


    All semantics in the end...both factions are undead...both have zombies...one has an enchantment attached that allows zombies to shoot gun powder based weapons.


    Taking away with all of this...if the crude reanimation spell is tweaked...the undead can do such things such as shoot. In the end you should have gone with the fact that GW will never do that for the main necromancy based faction...

    We all know why GW gimped them...though funny that it would be CA to nerf hammer them more so.


    P.S. It's adorable that you are so loyal to Gamers Workshop...I bet you love AoS in all it's glory >:) .


  • Wargol5Wargol5 Registered Users Posts: 1,308
    edited April 2018
    mw51630 said:

    Mech_4 said:

    There's a Dogs of War unit called Richter Kruger's Cursed Company that had the raised skeletons of different races among it's members. Lizardmen, Orcs, Goblins, Dwarfs, Elves and Humans.

    I think in the early editions there was Chaos Orcs, but this was changed later on to greenskins having a strong resistance to chaos. I think greenskins can still get mutations but it'd be more like "Oo! Gork/Mork gave me a new arm fer crump'n humies". Like Chaos Trolls, they're not really controlled by chaos or worship it but they're certainly mutated by chaos.

    Now that is dope.

    I guess if the End Times made it semi-canon that Elves can be Vampires, maybe even dwarfs can too?

    Unfortunately, it's completely canon. But not in the Total War Warhammer storyline, which diverge from the "base storyline" before The End Times start.
    mw51630 said:


    Humans seem overly represented in the armies of both Chaos and Undead, I assume because the modellers didn't want to make zombie humans and zombie Orks, and zombie elves... etcetera.

    You nailed it.




    Nobody mentionned the dust goblins ? Ok. Greenskins hordes regularly try to invade Khemri, fail and die. Then the Liche Priests of Khemri summons the goblins carcasses and add them to their legions.
    Some of these goblins zombie go back to their homelands... and despite being undead, they are still a bit mischievous like childrens.
    On the tabletop, they have blowpipes, possibly the best undead ranged infantry .



    Post edited by Wargol5 on
  • BaronKlatzBaronKlatz Registered Users Posts: 1,037
    The novel "Runefang" had a general of Nagash use skeletons of orcs, goblins and dwarfs as well.

    Really I could see vampire elves easily being a thing but just not in the vampire's best interest as he/she just turned a being that was far above them in mortal life and likely far above them in death as well with possibly a very vengeful mind for turning them into a monster.

    A funnier note that someone mentioned is that the old bygone canon of that old heroic female vampire had examples of both a vampire dwarf and a vampire giant. :D

    "P.S. It's adorable that you are so loyal to Gamers Workshop"

    He's just stating the facts. It's completely justified to reference in a game that's basing itself off the tabletop as close as it can while keeping to the lore.

  • UrgatUrgat Registered Users Posts: 996
    edited April 2018
    In one of the Gotrek books, a vampire states that dwarfs are difficult to turn into vampires. Ergo, it means it's possible, and if we know it's possible, it means there's (or there's been) vampire dwarfs.
    As for chaos, there's no chaos worshippers for "special" races like lizardmen (wholly dedicated to just their goal), maybe greenskins (no exemple at all infantasy There is chaos orks in 40K though). I would have said no undead either, but Krell proved it is not true (though it's probably an exception, taht's a very particular special case). Everybody else has chaos cultists or worshippers, even regular dwarfs. In Dreadfleet, the dwarf who sails the karkaen submarine is a regular dwarf worshipping chaos, not a Dawi Zharr (chaos dwarf as in the faction, "chaos dwarves").

    Oh, as for other undead races, the old plastic skeleton kit provided beastmen (or skaven if you didn't put the horns), and orc skulls. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
    Krueger's mercenary had actual no human skeleton miniatures:

    They're in the lore, nothing special about non human undead, it's just GW wasn't going to make multiple skeleton kits just for show, and the iconic one, for us, would be humans anyway.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    edited April 2018
    Avadon said:

    All semantics in the end...both factions are undead...both have zombies...one has an enchantment attached that allows zombies to shoot gun powder based weapons.

    It's not semantics, its a vital distinction in the lore. Harkon went insane and starting using non-normal spells for reanimation compared to the Counts. He is a beast of a different color entirely. This is one of the major differences between TK and VC following the split of the undead into multiple factions. I guess the lore isn't that important to you.
    Avadon said:

    Taking away with all of this...if the crude reanimation spell is tweaked...the undead can do such things such as shoot. In the end you should have gone with the fact that GW will never do that for the main necromancy based faction...

    They can't shoot though, because again, hitting on a 1 or less, minus 1 is a 0% chance of ever rolling a hit.
    Avadon said:

    We all know why GW gimped them...though funny that it would be CA to nerf hammer them more so.

    I don't because I never played WHFB. I'd guess because the Vampire Counts in lore cannot resurrect zombies/skeletons with souls unlike the TKs.

    Quote and response removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
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  • mw51630mw51630 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,594
    edited April 2018
    Wargol5 said:

    mw51630 said:

    Mech_4 said:

    There's a Dogs of War unit called Richter Kruger's Cursed Company that had the raised skeletons of different races among it's members. Lizardmen, Orcs, Goblins, Dwarfs, Elves and Humans.

    I think in the early editions there was Chaos Orcs, but this was changed later on to greenskins having a strong resistance to chaos. I think greenskins can still get mutations but it'd be more like "Oo! Gork/Mork gave me a new arm fer crump'n humies". Like Chaos Trolls, they're not really controlled by chaos or worship it but they're certainly mutated by chaos.

    Now that is dope.

    I guess if the End Times made it semi-canon that Elves can be Vampires, maybe even dwarfs can too?

    Unfortunately, it's completely canon. But not in the Total War Warhammer storyline, which diverge from the "base storyline" before The End Times start.
    mw51630 said:


    Humans seem overly represented in the armies of both Chaos and Undead, I assume because the modellers didn't want to make zombie humans and zombie Orks, and zombie elves... etcetera.

    You nailed it.




    Nobody mentionned the dust goblins ? Ok. Greenskins hordes regularly try to invade Khemri, fail and die. Then the Liche Priests of Khemri summons the goblins carcasses and add them to their legions.
    Some of these goblins zombie go back to their homelands... and despite being undead, they are still a bit mischievous like childrens.
    On the tabletop, they have blowpipes, possibly the best undead ranged infantry .




    Now that is hilarious. I can totally imagine a skeleton goblin returning to his tribe and his friends looking up and saying, "Oi Backbiter! Mate your skin don't look so good. You don't have none."
  • Rochaid29Rochaid29 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,388
    As for animating non-human races, i've read several books where the vampire counts and Nagash raise up the dead Skaven to fight for them.

    I dont recall reading about dwarfs or Elves but there is probably something out there (Im still looking)
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543
    MrJade said:

    Avadon said:

    All semantics in the end...both factions are undead...both have zombies...one has an enchantment attached that allows zombies to shoot gun powder based weapons.

    It's not semantics, its a vital distinction in the lore. Harkon went insane and starting using non-normal spells for reanimation compared to the Counts. He is a beast of a different color entirely. This is one of the major differences between TK and VC following the split of the undead into multiple factions. I guess the lore isn't that important to you.
    Avadon said:

    Taking away with all of this...if the crude reanimation spell is tweaked...the undead can do such things such as shoot. In the end you should have gone with the fact that GW will never do that for the main necromancy based faction...

    They can't shoot though, because again, hitting on a 1 or less, minus 1 is a 0% chance of ever rolling a hit.
    Avadon said:

    We all know why GW gimped them...though funny that it would be CA to nerf hammer them more so.

    I don't because I never played WHFB. I'd guess because the Vampire Counts in lore cannot resurrect zombies/skeletons with souls unlike the TKs.

    Quote and response removed.
    Oooh you think I was referring to the "urban" meaning of "semantics"...hence why you stated this "I guess the lore isn't that important to you.".

    Semantics: is the study of meaning in language. It can be applied to entire texts or to single words. For example, "destination" and "last stop" technically mean the same thing, but students of semantics analyze their subtle shades of meaning.

    Now what does "factions" provide in terms of meaning?

    Is a vampire count the only ones capable of raising undead zombies or can powerful vampires in general raise zombies?

    Do both Vlad and Harkon come from Nehekhara?

    Do you really think CA will leave out Zombies that can shoot from the Vampire Coast?

    Did I ever mention Vampire Coast and Vampire Counts are the same faction?

    Oh and slann magic was used to allow the zombies to utilise black powder based weapons. Interesting concept in itself because one would think you would require a semblance of the Spirit to allow for such things.

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