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Cavalry in this era; importance, types, roles?

FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,274Registered Users
I'm lacking in Asian military history, any experts can chime in, what are we looking at for cav in this era? Which kingdoms used what types of cav? Wei cavalry I heard of, that's really it. What does cav composition in armies look like for this period?

Comments

  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Posts: 471Registered Users
    edited April 12
    We should get a wide range of cavalry from light cavalry (lightly armored horse archers, crossbow cav) to medium cavalry (armored soldiers who can engage in melee as well as skirmish who may also have a bow) to heavier cavalry (armored lancers with partially armored horses) to very heavy (fully armored horse-cataphracts).

    Or it's possible this game goes full blown Dynasty Warriors fantasy...in which case most cavalry are useless mooks and only the cavalry worth a damn are the named heroes.

    This dude has a video on some of them:


    Other related stuff might include chariots, elephants, etc

  • RandomTagRandomTag Posts: 1,475Registered Users
    No cavalry beyond light scouts south of Yangtze. Full cavalry roster north of Yangtze.
  • BreadboxBreadbox Posts: 533Registered Users
    edited April 12
    I’m expecting to see plenty of cavalry with hybrid combat capabilities.

    Many of the elite cavalry units from this period draw their recruits from nomadic populations with a tradition in horse archery.
    For states with no access to such population you would be looking at more mounted (light)crossbow instead.Access to warhorses is also a huge problem for the southern factions.

    Archery is also the most common indicator of a general’s martial prowess and strength in historical records,many of the most famous characters from this time are explicitly noted for their exceptional (mounted)archery skills(rather than anything melee),such as LüBu,DongZhuo,GuanYu etc.
    Obviously we never see any these in media,because apparently archery is not cool any more.

    I remember seeing someone claim that there’s historical records of XiLiang Cavalry throwing heavy javelins/spears before charging.But I’ve yet to see myself.

    Protection wise,the horse itself is generally unarmoured or have partial barding frontally.
    You’ll see cataphracts ingame because they are cool,and ‘might’ be around historically around this time,but they are really rare.
    Post edited by Breadbox on
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Posts: 8,063Registered Users
    edited April 12
    Wei has good cavalry but Xiliang should have the best cavalry in the game.

    Wei even acknowledged Xiliang to have better cav than them and even tried to avoid them.

    *Hope there is variety in terms of model quantity in units. Not all units of every faction should exactly the same unit count with every factions. Since Xiliang relies heavily on their cavalry and this is their pride, hope their cav looks intimidating by having more men in their cav units as well
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,274Registered Users
    Awesome thanks guys. So we are hoping for dynamic roles in factions right? Like cav only for areas that actually fielded it; unlike Attila where every faction had heavy cavalry
  • IntranetusaIntranetusa Junior Member Posts: 471Registered Users
    edited April 12

    Awesome thanks guys. So we are hoping for dynamic roles in factions right? Like cav only for areas that actually fielded it; unlike Attila where every faction had heavy cavalry

    Hopefully. The factions in the southern regions filled with mountainous jungles and dense forests should have smaller cavalry units and worse cavalry (and generally far more limited cavalry) than the factions of the central plains, or the northern/north western steppes.
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,274Registered Users

    Awesome thanks guys. So we are hoping for dynamic roles in factions right? Like cav only for areas that actually fielded it; unlike Attila where every faction had heavy cavalry

    Hopefully. The factions in the southern regions filled with mountainous jungles and dense forests should have smaller cavalry units and worse cavalry (and generally far more limited cavalry) than the factions of the central plains, or the northern/north western steppes.
    Right. Awesome
  • TijuTiju TulifurdumPosts: 109Registered Users
    Breadbox said:

    ...
    Archery is also the most common indicator of a general’s martial prowess and strength in historical records,many of the most famous characters from this time are explicitly noted for their exceptional (mounted)archery skills(rather than anything melee),such as LüBu,DongZhuo,GuanYu etc.
    Obviously we never see any these in media,because apparently archery is not cool any more.

    ...

    As far as I know the militarily related abilities a good person had to be educated in according to Kongzi/Confucius were driving a chariot and archery? No fabulous swordplay. Or was it added later?

    While chariots may be out of fashion as combat units in our period, archery is surely not. It was seemingly very important for "heroes". Of course, as you hinted at, swords are cool, spears and bows are not. :D
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,043Registered Users
    Breadbox said:



    Archery is also the most common indicator of a general’s martial prowess and strength in historical records,many of the most famous characters from this time are explicitly noted for their exceptional (mounted)archery skills(rather than anything melee),such as LüBu,DongZhuo,GuanYu etc.
    Obviously we never see any these in media,because apparently archery is not cool any more.

    Recent media portrayals leads me to believe archery has become more of a womanly thing now. Which is wierd, before firearms, you were a super burly man if you had the time for archery skills.

    Guess with the Western perception of firearms and manly frontiersmen, coupled with things like sexy elves with impractically designed bows, and movies like Hunger games and so forth forging a modern view of bows with babes. Warhammer certainly doesn't help, even the male Wood Elf archers look like females. Media can be very powerful, more than even Goebbels could anticipate.

    Back to cavalry, I am hoping reconnaissance plays a key role in battle mode, where light cavalry units (such as characters?) play an active role in discerning where the enemy is. This may be hard to implement though, given the majority of battles are against the AI, and in general manoeuvres requiring scouting are of the strategic nature, not tactical.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,274Registered Users
    daelin4 said:

    Breadbox said:



    Archery is also the most common indicator of a general’s martial prowess and strength in historical records,many of the most famous characters from this time are explicitly noted for their exceptional (mounted)archery skills(rather than anything melee),such as LüBu,DongZhuo,GuanYu etc.
    Obviously we never see any these in media,because apparently archery is not cool any more.

    Recent media portrayals leads me to believe archery has become more of a womanly thing now. Which is wierd, before firearms, you were a super burly man if you had the time for archery skills.

    Guess with the Western perception of firearms and manly frontiersmen, coupled with things like sexy elves with impractically designed bows, and movies like Hunger games and so forth forging a modern view of bows with babes. Warhammer certainly doesn't help, even the male Wood Elf archers look like females. Media can be very powerful, more than even Goebbels could anticipate.

    Back to cavalry, I am hoping reconnaissance plays a key role in battle mode, where light cavalry units (such as characters?) play an active role in discerning where the enemy is. This may be hard to implement though, given the majority of battles are against the AI, and in general manoeuvres requiring scouting are of the strategic nature, not tactical.
    Yeah, maybe we'll see some massive improvements in The AI, who knows..that will be cool. But I do also want some form of scouting
  • RandomTagRandomTag Posts: 1,475Registered Users
    TW definitely needs a massively improved AI for this new historical title, that's for sure.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 8,063Registered Users
    edited April 17
    daelin4 said:

    Breadbox said:



    Archery is also the most common indicator of a general’s martial prowess and strength in historical records,many of the most famous characters from this time are explicitly noted for their exceptional (mounted)archery skills(rather than anything melee),such as LüBu,DongZhuo,GuanYu etc.
    Obviously we never see any these in media,because apparently archery is not cool any more.

    Recent media portrayals leads me to believe archery has become more of a womanly thing now. Which is wierd, before firearms, you were a super burly man if you had the time for archery skills.

    Guess with the Western perception of firearms and manly frontiersmen, coupled with things like sexy elves with impractically designed bows, and movies like Hunger games and so forth forging a modern view of bows with babes. Warhammer certainly doesn't help, even the male Wood Elf archers look like females. Media can be very powerful, more than even Goebbels could anticipate.

    Back to cavalry, I am hoping reconnaissance plays a key role in battle mode, where light cavalry units (such as characters?) play an active role in discerning where the enemy is. This may be hard to implement though, given the majority of battles are against the AI, and in general manoeuvres requiring scouting are of the strategic nature, not tactical.
    It's not only Western perceptions.

    For example the Manga Inu Yasha has the heroine... uses a bow...

    It's the same idea as having female characters with Rapiers, because a lot of idiots think "Rapier = Smallsword in a little larger", when it's actually a 1h sword with a comparable weight to a Longsword. A 2h Longsword or a Poleweapon likely would be a better choice.
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Posts: 3,199Registered Users
    daelin4 said:

    Breadbox said:




    Guess with the Western perception of firearms and manly frontiersmen, coupled with things like sexy elves with impractically designed bows, and movies like Hunger games and so forth forging a modern view of bows with babes. Warhammer certainly doesn't help, even the male Wood Elf archers look like females.

    The difference with Warhammer is that it's actually something of a total failure on CA's part to not include female elven warriors and archers. Though I will say Glade Guard are pretty chiselled.
  • TijuTiju TulifurdumPosts: 109Registered Users
    What? Is this the wrong thread? :D

    Anyway, totally wrong. Warhammer itself is a total failure because they only made female wardancers. And all Wood Elves have much too much clothing, most should wear loincloths. Case closed.
  • mu119mu119 Junior Member Posts: 11Registered Users
    Archery was one of the six trade that a gentlemen(Chinese version according to Confucius ) should master. So as most generals of this time were elites, most of them anyway, they would be capable of archery as well as other sort of martial arts, swordsmanship, gun(staff), and Ji (polearm), and some other more eccentric weapons.

    Calvary would be something common to factions to the north of Yangtze river, since most of the source of horse is in the steppe in northern China. That said, this refers to warhorse, there are sources of horse in southern China but are not good for use as warhorse.
  • brainsuker1brainsuker1 Posts: 6Registered Users
    edited May 7
    RandomTag said:

    No cavalry beyond light scouts south of Yangtze. Full cavalry roster north of Yangtze.

    This will be a problem then. The southern factions don't have the access to cavalry unit just because of their terrain. But what if they manage to conquer the northern part of China where the terrain favorable to cavalry? Won't they got into a big problem then?
  • BreadboxBreadbox Posts: 533Registered Users

    RandomTag said:

    No cavalry beyond light scouts south of Yangtze. Full cavalry roster north of Yangtze.

    This will be a problem then. The southern factions don't have the access to cavalry unit just because of their terrain. But what if they manage to conquer the northern part of China where the terrain favorable to cavalry? Won't they got into a big problem then?
    Ideally most of rosters should be area of recruitment troops(tied to location), with only a small number of elite guards like unit been tied fo faction.

  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,274Registered Users
    Very interesting. And so I'm gathering from people that northern China has more effective/common cavalry units in their armies than southern China?
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Posts: 3,199Registered Users

    Very interesting. And so I'm gathering from people that northern China has more effective/common cavalry units in their armies than southern China?

    Not just more effective cavalry but just more types of cav too. Cataphracts and other heavy cav basically shouldn't field in Southern China.
  • BreadboxBreadbox Posts: 533Registered Users
    Just like to add that although southern China does not produce warhorses,
    states there always sought to acquire warhorses through other means such as trading,buying from independant merchants or looting, because of cavalry’s importance.

    Southern warlords such as Sun Jian and Sun Ce were also known for leading from the front and leading cavalry into battle.

    So it would make sense for Southern factions to recruit a small number of good shock cavalry forces, espacially for generals’ body guard.
  • Kapika96Kapika96 Posts: 89Registered Users
    Don't care much about regular cav, but the Nanman and their elephant cavalry will be awesome.

    Don't know whether that's historically accurate either... but if this game wants to compete with ROTK then it needs elephants!
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