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Faction Counter picks

NivlacACENivlacACE Posts: 49Registered Users
It is good to know when you are at a disadvantage/advantage so I was wondering what each faction has the hardest time against.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 1,982Registered Users
    It depends a lot on how good your opponent is.

    But I think dwarfs can neuter wood elves, and dwarfs are advantaged vs empire and skaven.

    Again, depends on knowing the game well.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 935Registered Users
    I'm not 100% sure, but based on VC it seems quite close (basically all match-ups withch I rank as bad are presented there and while good match-ups like Skaven, GS and maybe even Empire could be on par with VC in general in 1v1, I think that VC indeed, are quite bad match-up for new players against those factions).

    Look at table #4. There would be match-ups ratings.

    But take into account that's in general. Depending from player skill some of match-ups mentioned in that list, would be neglected for good players, while some would be worse for beginners.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_TciuhFafqDGCCnLbMJl7GLkODsCWw_LuBA1ecLpn6Y/edit

    Survey made by havy09
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,751Registered Users
    Ill give you MY opinion on all elven ones.


    Dark elves

    Advantage - VC, Empire,

    Neutral - SKV, Chaos, TK, Dwarfs, HE, BM, GS,

    Disadvantage - WE*, Bret, LZM*


    High Elves

    Advantage - WE, Empire

    Neutral - Chaos, VC, GS, DE, BM, LZM

    Disadvantage - Bret*, SKV*, TK, Dwarfs


    Wood Elves

    Advantage - VC*, Empire, DE*, GS

    Neutral - Skv, LZM, BM, Chaos

    Disadvantage - HE, Bret*, Dwarf, TK


    Now this is just my personal option as someone who plays ONLY elves, some of the disadvantage ones are only slight disadvantage while other the ones with * are big disadvantage/advantage.
  • hanenhanen Posts: 116Registered Users
    Tomb Kings

    Advantage vs all factions . The level of advantage goes from "Why did you even bother?" to "Damn needed to use both hands this game. GG wp"

    Disadvantage - Mirror match because you never needed to learn to play.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 696Registered Users

    Ill give you MY opinion on all elven ones.


    Dark elves

    Advantage - VC, Empire,

    Neutral - SKV, Chaos, TK, Dwarfs, HE, BM, GS,

    Disadvantage - WE*, Bret, LZM*


    High Elves

    Advantage - WE, Empire

    Neutral - Chaos, VC, GS, DE, BM, LZM

    Disadvantage - Bret*, SKV*, TK, Dwarfs


    Wood Elves

    Advantage - VC*, Empire, DE*, GS

    Neutral - Skv, LZM, BM, Chaos

    Disadvantage - HE, Bret*, Dwarf, TK


    Now this is just my personal option as someone who plays ONLY elves, some of the disadvantage ones are only slight disadvantage while other the ones with * are big disadvantage/advantage.

    I notice you say dark elves have a big disadvantage against lizardmen, why do you think so?

    As LM i can win against most dark elf players, but when i run into someone who really knows how to play them it feels like theres nothing i can do to win.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,751Registered Users
    edited April 13

    Ill give you MY opinion on all elven ones.


    Dark elves

    Advantage - VC, Empire,

    Neutral - SKV, Chaos, TK, Dwarfs, HE, BM, GS,

    Disadvantage - WE*, Bret, LZM*


    High Elves

    Advantage - WE, Empire

    Neutral - Chaos, VC, GS, DE, BM, LZM

    Disadvantage - Bret*, SKV*, TK, Dwarfs


    Wood Elves

    Advantage - VC*, Empire, DE*, GS

    Neutral - Skv, LZM, BM, Chaos

    Disadvantage - HE, Bret*, Dwarf, TK


    Now this is just my personal option as someone who plays ONLY elves, some of the disadvantage ones are only slight disadvantage while other the ones with * are big disadvantage/advantage.

    I notice you say dark elves have a big disadvantage against lizardmen, why do you think so?

    As LM i can win against most dark elf players, but when i run into someone who really knows how to play them it feels like theres nothing i can do to win.
    It might just be i'm doing something wrong as it was all just from personal experience, but i find it extremely difficult to beat any LZM army that has 6 chameleon with 2 bastiladon solar engines in it, rest of the army doesnt matter at all so long as it doesn't have any cav I think cav are a waste in the DE match up.

    Player skill and playstyle is of-course important also so my views are based if i played against myself. And i find it really hard to play against 6 chameleon skinks as DE. Its actually not a hard match-up if the LZM player goes for combat army and engages, its the kitting LZM that destroy DE in my view, its also why WE are great vs DE.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,219Registered Users

    Ill give you MY opinion on all elven ones.
    High Elves

    Advantage - WE, Empire
    Neutral - Chaos, VC, GS, DE, BM, LZM
    Disadvantage - Bret*, SKV*, TK, Dwarfs

    From my experience I'd on average go with:

    Advantage - WE, VC, EMP
    Neutral - DWF, Chaos, GS, DE, BM
    Disadvantage: Bret, LIZ, TK, SKV

    That said, using the right build I am not sure EMP and VC are at any real disadvantage, at least not a big one. Even WE can with the right build be very, very threatening. Likewise from the other end, it's only one build that gives Bret and Liz the advantages really, so vs random builds it's quite even, or even HE advantage vs Bret. Vs SKV you can bring a build-type that also is hard for the SKV, though SKV really have cheese potential in this MU.... all neutral also have builds that are extremely hard for HE to counter so at the end of it all I think all MU are winnable and loseable, even TK. So with a bit of good will I could almost put all except WE, TK and SKV in neutral, though I think HE is at a very tiny disadvantage vs 8 of the 12 opponents (not WE, VC, EMP and DWF). Not enough to put them in different tiers though.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 696Registered Users
    edited April 13

    Ill give you MY opinion on all elven ones.


    Dark elves

    Advantage - VC, Empire,

    Neutral - SKV, Chaos, TK, Dwarfs, HE, BM, GS,

    Disadvantage - WE*, Bret, LZM*


    High Elves

    Advantage - WE, Empire

    Neutral - Chaos, VC, GS, DE, BM, LZM

    Disadvantage - Bret*, SKV*, TK, Dwarfs


    Wood Elves

    Advantage - VC*, Empire, DE*, GS

    Neutral - Skv, LZM, BM, Chaos

    Disadvantage - HE, Bret*, Dwarf, TK


    Now this is just my personal option as someone who plays ONLY elves, some of the disadvantage ones are only slight disadvantage while other the ones with * are big disadvantage/advantage.

    I notice you say dark elves have a big disadvantage against lizardmen, why do you think so?

    As LM i can win against most dark elf players, but when i run into someone who really knows how to play them it feels like theres nothing i can do to win.
    It might just be i'm doing something wrong as it was all just from personal experience, but i find it extremely difficult to beat any LZM army that has 6 chameleon with 2 bastiladon solar engines in it, rest of the army doesnt matter at all so long as it doesn't have any cav I think cav are a waste in the DE match up.

    Player skill and playstyle is of-course important also so my views are based if i played against myself. And i find it really hard to play against 6 chameleon skinks as DE. Its actually not a hard match-up if the LZM player goes for combat army and engages, its the kitting LZM that destroy DE in my view, its also why WE are great vs DE.
    Interesting. I agree on the skirmish part, i bring skirmish builds against dark elves myself, but not 6 chameleons and 2 solar engines that just seems like cheese.

    Im curious now without cav what do you use to deal with malekith on dragon or the death hag on cauldron? Carnosaurs? Personally i find them too risky for their cost in this matchup because if you mess up once mircoing them theyre dead. I guess you can use skink chief and chameleons to do it more slowly. I dont like going full kite build as LM though, because i still feel its not completely balanced yet and unfair to the other player to bring.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 143Registered Users
    -Warriors of Chaos

    Advantage
    Empire, Dwarves, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia

    Neutral
    Skaven, Lizardmen, Greenskins

    Disadvantage
    High Elves, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Beastmen, Wood Elves


    -Skaven

    Advantage
    Greenskins, Beastmen, Wood Elves

    Neutral
    Empire, Vampire Counts, Dwarves, Chaos, Tomb Kings, High Elves, Lizardmen

    Disadvantage
    Bretonnia, Dark Elves


    -Beastmen

    Advantage
    Lizardmen, Dark Elves, High Elves, Dwarves, Chaos

    Neutral
    Bretonnia, Greenskins, Empire

    Disadvantage
    Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Skaven, Wood Elves


    -Tomb Kings (this is assuming Tomb Blade of Arkhan only gets used three times max which is the general effectiveness I expect the item to be post patch)

    Advantage
    Greenskins, High Elves, Empire, Vampire Counts, Beastmen

    Neutral
    Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Skaven, Dwarves

    Disadvantage
    Chaos, Lizardmen


    Note: This is in regard to builds that are considered “tournament legal”.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,219Registered Users
    Just out of curiosity, which he build do you think gives an advantage vs chaos? I hear he players say chaos have the advantages and I hear chaos players say the opposite... Kiting build then?
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 143Registered Users
    edited April 14
    A kiting build with basically all cavalry and a dragon is a real pain for chaos to deal with, though alternatively you can opt for an alternating spearman/Swordmaster Infantry core and if they have chosen use the spearmen to break the charge. Chosen only win because they get rid of martial prowess early enough to not swing the fight too drastically. Not taking the charge means having around 900 HP or so that they need to grind out in melee and you will come out on top in that engagement every time. Then just keeping Dragon princes supported and making good use of a star dragon should prove too much to handle.

    You could go for a Prince on a star dragon, a loremaster with harmonic convergence and earth blood, 2 swordmasters, 1 Phoenix Guard, 2 spearmen, a dragon prince, and 2 reaver archers for example which would be a pretty standard adaptable all purpose build
  • clibanariiclibanarii Posts: 2Registered Users
    I am surprised to hear that High Elves have an advantage when facing against Warriors of Chaos.
    I just could not deal with Kholek and Shaggoth.
    Phoenix Guard are expensive, and casting one or two Fate of Bjuna usually obliterates them.
    Even when a Phoenix Guard unit is unscathed, Kholek or Shaggoth seem to be strangely effective at mowing down halberd infantry as well as large monsters.

    Most of the time I cast Net of Amyntok(from Teclis) to tie up Kholek/Shaggoth, and then use dragon princes and moon dragon to soften up Chaos infantry. But they just do not seem to do enough damage while the Net ties up Kholek/Shaggoth.

    That, and the rest of the Chaos roster filled with Chosens(Great Weapons) frustrate me.
    Sword Masters have an edge in close combat, but they tend to flee all too often due to their average leadership.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,219Registered Users

    A kiting build with basically all cavalry and a dragon is a real pain for chaos to deal with, though alternatively you can opt for an alternating spearman/Swordmaster Infantry core and if they have chosen use the spearmen to break the charge. Chosen only win because they get rid of martial prowess early enough to not swing the fight too drastically. Not taking the charge means having around 900 HP or so that they need to grind out in melee and you will come out on top in that engagement every time. Then just keeping Dragon princes supported and making good use of a star dragon should prove too much to handle.

    You could go for a Prince on a star dragon, a loremaster with harmonic convergence and earth blood, 2 swordmasters, 1 Phoenix Guard, 2 spearmen, a dragon prince, and 2 reaver archers for example which would be a pretty standard adaptable all purpose build

    Ok, I don't really agree but I don't want to start a discussion of a single matchup here. :) The way I see it very briefly is that CWGW trades effectively with all HE infantry except SM before they lose MP/MM, and SM are vulnerable to FoB and charges from any cav/shagoths, so they usually quickly go below 50% health. HE also has to invest heavily to try to deal with Kholek + shagoth, so imho WoC will win between reasonably balanced lists. I can see that HE going full kite beats this, but then again chaos going full hounds, cav and shagoths beats that in return... so counter-picks can be made but in general I'd say that Kholek+Shagoth+Death+CWGW > Dragon + spears + SM/PG.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 696Registered Users
    Lizardmen

    Advantages: Greenskins, high elves, vampire counts, empire, brettonia.

    Neutral: Skaven, warriors of chaos, wood elves, tomb kings, dark elves.

    Disadvantages: Dwarfs, beastmen.
  • SpaniardSpaniard Posts: 689Registered Users
    All factions can beat each other, there’s only a few hard match ups. Having said that, these are my opinions:



    CHAOS

    Advantage = LZM, Bret, Emp, Skaven, TK

    Neutral = GreenSkins, DE, HE, WE, BM

    Disadvantage = VC, Dwarfs,



    VC

    Advantage = Chaos, LZM, Skaven, Emp, BM

    Neutral = Bret, Greenskins, TK,

    Disadvantage = WE, DE, HE, Dwarfs



    DWARFS

    Advantage = VC, Chaos, Skaven, Emp, Bret, LZM,

    Neutral = WE, TK, HE

    Disadvantage = Greenskins, DE, BM



    GREENSKINS

    Advantage = Dwarfs, Empire, Bret,

    Neutral = Chaos, BM, VC, HE, WE

    Disadvantage = DE, LZM, TK, Skaven



    LZM

    Advantage = HE, Bret, Skaven, TK, BM, Greenskins

    Neutral = WE, Empire,

    Disadvantage = DE, VC, Chaos, Dwarfs,



    WE

    Advantage = DE, Empire, VC, BM

    Neutral = LZM, Chaos, HE, Dwarfs, Skaven, Greenskins,

    Disadvantage = Bret, TK,




    I got tired.....


  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 143Registered Users
    Full kite for HE doesn't carry the same risks as for Chaos to go full cav/hounds/shaggoths and even in balanced builds you underestimate how much damage kholek and a shaggoth can take being cycle charged by a star dragon. Sure fate of bjuna is a problem, but regrowth negates that and for less WoM where the power reserve boosting item for high elf mages doesn't leave them half dead like the one for chaos does. You just snipe out their characters in order of Caster>Shaggoth>Kholek as opportunities present themselves. Swordmasters don't have much trouble munching through as much as 1.5-2 Chaos Warriors w/ Great Weapons either and phoenix guard will also do quite well just due to their huge stats. Due to generally losing combat, chaos warriors will also be more susceptible to terror routing than the high elf units so you see you lose by a few inches everywhere except with Kholek and a Shaggoth being the anchors, but the threat a star dragon poses to your line is much more significant than what Kholek and a Shaggoth pose to the HE line meaning you need to commit at least one of them to screening the star dragon which will inevitably have basically double the health it began with providing a band aid for mistakes.

    In my eyes Chaos has to work a lot harder for this, which is why I consider it in HE's favor.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,219Registered Users
    CWGW cost 800. It's probably a quite even mu.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,751Registered Users
    There is no way as is that HE have advantage vs Chaos.
  • tomolyonstomolyons Posts: 21Registered Users
    edited April 16
    I’m a staunch empire player and lost 20 games in a row today, this list is accurate as f*ck.

    I strongly feel that the factions from the first game are not balanced for the second game whatsoever. I constantly fight factions from TW II and always results in a loss.

    On the original I used to have some amazing matchups and games. When I started playing number 2 online I was at 2k on the leaderboard and now after a week I’ve dropped to 13k if that isn’t saying something I don’t need know what is lol

    I also find it hilarious his empire swordsman are 400 each and only have a “shielded” trait.
    Dwarf warriors are 475? With armoured & shielded and charge defence against large foes. Seems legit and balanced..
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 1,853Registered Users

    There is no way as is that HE have advantage vs Chaos.

    I don't know about that. HE Dragons are not easy to deal with, especially when supported be Ellyrian Reaver Archers. ERA cut down Chaos skirmish cavalry, allowing dragons free reign to do what they want. From there on, it's usually lord sniping, then fear and terror kicks in.

    It is hard if HE go for typical "lines meet in the middle" type of engagement, although even that is doable.
    tomolyons said:

    I’m a staunch empire player and lost 20 games in a row today, this list is accurate as f*ck.

    I strongly feel that the factions from the first game are not balanced for the second game whatsoever. I constantly fight factions from TW II and always results in a loss.

    On the original I used to have some amazing matchups and games. When I started playing number 2 online I was at 2k on the leaderboard and now after a week I’ve dropped to 13k if that isn’t saying something I don’t need know what is lol

    I also find it hilarious his empire swordsman are 400 each and only have a “shielded” trait.
    Dwarf warriors are 475? With armoured & shielded and charge defence against large foes. Seems legit and balanced..

    Yeah, Empire is middle ground. They have a versatile roster, so they can surprise opponents but in general, you need a lot more skill to play Empire now compared to WH1, where they were probably the strongest faction.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,751Registered Users
    There's nothing for the Dragons to target though, if they land they dead. So long as Chaos doesn't split up i don't see anything at all for the dragon to do.
  • hanenhanen Posts: 116Registered Users
    Well pick an army which forces the Chaos to split up then?

    All cav and a princess on dragon to poke away until a good moment to land comes around. I've heard breaths are pretty good if the opponent doesnt spread out.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,751Registered Users
    hanen said:

    Well pick an army which forces the Chaos to split up then?

    All cav and a princess on dragon to poke away until a good moment to land comes around. I've heard breaths are pretty good if the opponent doesnt spread out.

    There is no reason for chaos to split up, HE missiles cannot do anything to Chaos so they can stay grouped up.
  • hanenhanen Posts: 116Registered Users

    hanen said:

    Well pick an army which forces the Chaos to split up then?

    All cav and a princess on dragon to poke away until a good moment to land comes around. I've heard breaths are pretty good if the opponent doesnt spread out.

    There is no reason for chaos to split up, HE missiles cannot do anything to Chaos so they can stay grouped up.
    *cough* repeater bolt thrower *cough*
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 1,853Registered Users
    And breaths can deal very good damage to chosen and chaos warriors
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,751Registered Users
    hanen said:

    hanen said:

    Well pick an army which forces the Chaos to split up then?

    All cav and a princess on dragon to poke away until a good moment to land comes around. I've heard breaths are pretty good if the opponent doesnt spread out.

    There is no reason for chaos to split up, HE missiles cannot do anything to Chaos so they can stay grouped up.
    *cough* repeater bolt thrower *cough*
    You pick RBT vs chaos as HE? especially in the build he described with dragons and ERA what would you have to protect 2 RBT? i have 0 idea.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 439Registered Users
    edited April 16


    You pick RBT vs chaos as HE? especially in the build he described with dragons and ERA what would you have to protect 2 RBT? i have 0 idea.

    He say all cav. Its enough to protect from fast units. And cav cycle charge moving chaos army is quite annoing. Spread RBT, so chaos either split, or face too much damage while moving. Its valid strategy sometimes, but too micro intensive.
    And of course there is counters. Chaos can have enough halberds to just soak all damage.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 696Registered Users
    edited April 16
    Also Greenskins:

    Advantage: Empire, dwarfs.

    Neutral: High elves, dark elves, chaos warriors, beastmen, brettonia.

    Disadvantage: Vampire counts, tomb kings, lizardmen, skaven, wood elves.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 143Registered Users
    Guys OP explicitly stated they didn’t want this to turn into a build discussion forum
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,751Registered Users

    Guys OP explicitly stated they didn’t want this to turn into a build discussion forum

    Where?
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