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How do you think the big update is going to affect balance?

PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,096
So, the first lord pack is going to be released in late May, and the community thinks it is going to be the HE vs DE one (not exactly sure why). With it, we will be getting Norsca and RoRs.

This is going to have a huge impact in balance.

So, just for pure fun speculation: which factions do you think are going to be the most benefited from this chages?

Imho:

1. HE. They are a currently a very good faction, with two very obvious weakness (limited infantry choices and lack of ways of killing large monsters).

But they are going to get sisters of Averlorn, a ranged unit with ap, fire and magic damage. That pretty much solves the first problem, and makes the second one much less important.

2. DE: similarly to what happens with HE, they are very likely to seeone of their main weaknesses (cavalry) being covered by the addition of doomfire warlocks: currently, DE have dark riders (good for their price, but unable to pack a punch against anything slightly strong, and the two cold one knights variants, which although decent vs cavalry or monsters, are not viable against anything else due to being slow and having rampage.

However if they get doomfire warlocks, they will get a very fast unit of cavalry (probably as fast as dark riders), with 50% physical resistance, poison and good melee stats. Plus two bound spells, one of them being imho slightly OP as it is to be added as a bound spell (a combination of Morathi, a dark sorceress, and 2 units of doomfire warlocks) will let you drop 4 doombolts at the same time, which pretty much ensures killing the enemy lord.


3. LM (once they get their lord pack):

The addition of ripperdactyls (melee ap flying unit) and razordons (ap missiles on a more or less mobile monster unit with good melee stats) are two very important additions. It will depend however in how they are designed.

4. Chaos:

Awesome RoRs.

5. WE:

Decent RoRs.



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Comments

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,209
    Going by you and your treehugers kitting friends post
    wood elves will remain at top don't worry XD

    also even with same stats ROR of each faction will Work vastly differently

    i most concerned about ror skinwolves,loec's trickester wardancers ror,ror waywatchers,ror cygor and ror bestigors

    seeeing the state of forsaken and chaos spawn i think the combo is dead even with wh1 stats

    Balance Is A Lie

  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 837
    edited April 15
    Unless there's more to this patch than Norsca, ROR and a lord pack, not positively. I think this will have the effect of doubling down on the current meta, balance and faction hierarchies.

    There's a lot of unknown factors though.
    What are you, some kind of... FANBOY
  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Registered Users Posts: 160
    High Elves I believe stand to benefit the most from this current update. AP missile options will make their lives much easier, but I fear that power combined with net (reminiscent of WE and Emp sniping lords). Also wouldn't mind the generic lord options to be improved a bit to encourage more variety away from Teclis (or new LL adding variety for that matter).

    Skaven would be my next choice if they are included in the Lord Pack. Jezzails and Gunners will add potent anti-air/anti-cav options for the roster. Not to mention they are iconic skaven units. A Skitterleaped Rattling Gunner on the flank could be a nasty tactic.

    My biggest hope is that lizardmen get their units, plus I'm interested in the patch updates for them. I'd like more variety in their roster (razordons would be a welcomed counter to elite halberd spam). Rampage improvements, Horned Ones buffs, maybe Kroxigor buffs. Expecting another nerf to the Skink Chief, maybe another blow to Cold Blooded, and perhaps another blow to Revivification Crystal as well.

    The inclusion of Norsca+RORs+Lord Pack should do well to shake the meta up at least.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,209
    i think martial prowess will need a md reduction,sisters alone guarantee it because he main problem armored monsters and long range archers are taken care by them alone,faction like dwarfs and chaos will struggle even more vs them,unless they make chaos and dwarfs infantry great accounting for their limitations

    Balance Is A Lie

  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Registered Users Posts: 160
    @KhorneFlakes I disagree. The main balancing point for Sisters will be the price you pay for them. From what I can gleam from the lore, they are extremely capable archers and competent melee combatants. In my mind an elite version of Lothern Sea Guard with swords rather than spears. This leads me to believe they will be priced around the same as Waywatchers.

    Other key points will be whether they can fire 360 degrees (and thus be able to kite), how fast they are (how well they can kite), model count (how quickly their performance degrades similar to Waywatchers), range, and if the formation will be loose or tight (vulernability to magic like wind blast and such).

    Against dwarfs they will be more limited, due to having magical attacks.

    Nerfing martial prowess (and thus nerfing most of the units in the roster) for one unit I think is a little much.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,209

    @KhorneFlakes I disagree. The main balancing point for Sisters will be the price you pay for them. From what I can gleam from the lore, they are extremely capable archers and competent melee combatants. In my mind an elite version of Lothern Sea Guard with swords rather than spears. This leads me to believe they will be priced around the same as Waywatchers.

    Other key points will be whether they can fire 360 degrees (and thus be able to kite), how fast they are (how well they can kite), model count (how quickly their performance degrades similar to Waywatchers), range, and if the formation will be loose or tight (vulernability to magic like wind blast and such).

    Against dwarfs they will be more limited, due to having magical attacks.

    Nerfing martial prowess (and thus nerfing most of the units in the roster) for one unit I think is a little much.

    But in The end its all about faction power and improving mu's
    sisters will cover weakness the only gap he have they will dominate then others should adjusted accordingly to keep faction power same
    A unit doesn't exist in vaccum,it should considered in many contexts,how much they useful will be in how much scenario and if those builds are risky or not
    Nothing in De rosters seems problematic as far as i can see,so they might be fine

    Balance Is A Lie

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,096

    i think martial prowess will need a md reduction,sisters alone guarantee it because he main problem armored monsters and long range archers are taken care by them alone,faction like dwarfs and chaos will struggle even more vs them,unless they make chaos and dwarfs infantry great accounting for their limitations

    Dwarfs are going to have little problem with sisters (magic damage).


    Chaos in the other hand may suffer, as some of the strategies that seem to work for me now (like a marauder plus armored trolls spam) will probably suffer much more once an ap fire damage ranged unit is added.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 837
    Pocman said:

    the community thinks it is going to be the HE vs DE one (not exactly sure why).

    They probably assume this because of the Skaven FLC lord that came out a while back
    What are you, some kind of... FANBOY
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,096

    Pocman said:

    the community thinks it is going to be the HE vs DE one (not exactly sure why).

    They probably assume this because of the Skaven FLC lord that came out a while back
    However, the original FLC chart showed the HE FLC lord coming first, so that's why i don't really know how to interpret it.

    The "steps of Isha" maps do seem to point in that direction though.


  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 581
    As for HE, I think that Sisters may help the TK matchup a lot, but I am not 100% convinced that it will be the answer to everything like some claim. If we look at the other hard matchups for HE it's imo SKV, LIZ and BRET at the moment and vs Bret the sisters will probably not do so much. One can try a new approach to the MU but I don't think that will work that well either. We'll see. Vs both LIZ and SKV it all depends on the price they set for the sisters. What I see as the difficulty with these mu's are not big dinos/wheels or skinks/rats... it's the threat of both that's hard to cover with a high cost roster. While elite archers could be very good in both MUs they could also suck. At least they'll add uncertainty to what the HE player will bring, I think that will be the main contribution from Sisters.

    I have a feeling they could also completely break the VC matchup, a MU that doesn't need help at all... so I wonder how they will avoid that. Could also swing the WoC, GS, DE mu's pretty hard, and these are in a pretty good spot now.

    I don't know, I fear that they will not magically fix the hard matchups, though they will surely help, but they could really break a few others. Tricky one!
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,096
    Sisters will probably have a similar cost to Starfire shafts glade guards.

    In tt, starfire glade guards costed 16 points per model, and had:

    Range 30
    Strength 3
    Armour piercing 1
    +1 to wound against destruction
    Magic and flaming attacks

    Sisters were 14 points per model and had

    Range 24
    S 4
    Armour piercing 1 against destruction.
    Magic and flaming attacks.

    Sisters were slightly better in melee due to betters weapon skill and light armour. And they had martial prowess instead of forest stalker.

    So, overall, i think they will be simialr in price, and while starfire shafts will have the range and fire on the move advantage, sisters will be better in melee and have the ranged damage advantage.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,209
    Pocman said:

    Sisters will probably have a similar cost to Starfire shafts glade guards.

    In tt, starfire glade guards costed 16 points per model, and had:

    Range 30
    Strength 3
    Armour piercing 1
    +1 to wound against destruction
    Magic and flaming attacks

    Sisters were 14 points per model and had

    Range 24
    S 4
    Armour piercing 1 against destruction.
    Magic and flaming attacks.

    Sisters were slightly better in melee due to betters weapon skill and light armour. And they had martial prowess instead of forest stalker.

    So, overall, i think they will be simialr in price, and while starfire shafts will have the range and fire on the move advantage, sisters will be better in melee and have the ranged damage advantage.

    ehh...which edition are you talking..??

    Balance Is A Lie

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,096

    Pocman said:

    Sisters will probably have a similar cost to Starfire shafts glade guards.

    In tt, starfire glade guards costed 16 points per model, and had:

    Range 30
    Strength 3
    Armour piercing 1
    +1 to wound against destruction
    Magic and flaming attacks

    Sisters were 14 points per model and had

    Range 24
    S 4
    Armour piercing 1 against destruction.
    Magic and flaming attacks.

    Sisters were slightly better in melee due to betters weapon skill and light armour. And they had martial prowess instead of forest stalker.

    So, overall, i think they will be simialr in price, and while starfire shafts will have the range and fire on the move advantage, sisters will be better in melee and have the ranged damage advantage.

    ehh...which edition are you talking..??
    8th.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 1,299
    Really though Sisters would be more elite. Kind of like Starfire Glade Guard close to Waywatcher price.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 581
    I actually hope they are not, cheaper AP archers would be much more useful I think. :)
  • turrehundturrehund Registered Users Posts: 37
    SIsters of Avelorn will very likely be similar to Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters of Hoeth - Expensive and extremely efficient at what they do, but easy to counter. Sisters of Avelorn will likely be a Waywatcher tier unit with higher damage output but unable to fire while moving and will collapse much faster in melee combat.

    If they are allowed to fire unimpeded they will devastate any non-shielded unit but I'd reckon even a single charge from low tier cav would crumble them. Although if they for some reason get Martial Mastery instead of Martial Prowess they'd probably overperform somewhat in melee when above 50% HP.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 551
    I think VC would be screwed even more, because HE/DE would get better variety (and I don't know if and how it would be addressed) +RoR for DLC/FLC WH1 factions. Even Chaos and Beastmen would have easier time against them (because buffs to Chaos/Beastmen in WH2 +nerf to VC in WH2 +RoR which could make Chaos stronger and would give Beastmen Net and I'm not speaking about WE/Brets).

    I know that it could be addressed in different ways (and HE/DE RoR units could be nerfed compared to previous versions or Vampires could be globaly buffed like in TK patch, but actually buffed)...but still. Have some concerns.

    But I hope this won't be a thing and VC would stay alive in their undeath and would return their good shape of WH1 last patch (or better of 1.6 patch, but with taking some nuances into account), but with realities of WH2.

    And Norsca. Mammoths, Skinwolves, Firmirs. Fun. Yay.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 343

    I think VC would be screwed even more, because HE/DE would get better variety (and I don't know if and how it would be addressed) +RoR for DLC/FLC WH1 factions. Even Chaos and Beastmen would have easier time against them (because buffs to Chaos/Beastmen in WH2 +nerf to VC in WH2 +RoR which could make Chaos stronger and would give Beastmen Net and I'm not speaking about WE/Brets).

    I know that it could be addressed in different ways (and HE/DE RoR units could be nerfed compared to previous versions or Vampires could be globaly buffed like in TK patch, but actually buffed)...but still. Have some concerns.

    But I hope this won't be a thing and VC would stay alive in their undeath and would return their good shape of WH1 last patch (or better of 1.6 patch, but with taking some nuances into account), but with realities of WH2.

    And Norsca. Mammoths, Skinwolves, Firmirs. Fun. Yay.

    + 1 CB for Dire Wolves and nerf to the rest of roster ( especially Blood Knights and Grave Guard GW because they are brokenly OP now ). I am sure it will be great patch for VC.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 1,299
    Something like Shades, but worse melee, no stalk and longer range. But maybe the will be closer to glade guard, in 600-700 price range
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 551


    + 1 CB for Dire Wolves and nerf to the rest of roster ( especially Blood Knights and Grave Guard GW because they are brokenly OP now ). I am sure it will be great patch for VC.

    Hope our worries and sad irony won't become reality. But it's up to CA developers.
    Folks, please. Don't screw this up.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 343

    Something like Shades, but worse melee, no stalk and longer range. But maybe the will be closer to glade guard, in 600-700 price range

    Dont even try to predict their price, CA has it's own way of design. For example :
    Chaos Warriors GW - 17 points cost per model on TT ( 850 in game )
    Greatswords - 11( 950 )
    Grave Guard GW - 12 ( 950 )
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 2,813
    edited April 16
    my prediction for tiers in may.

    1 - HE
    2 - rest
    3 - Greenskins

    Chaos and WE have potential to be tier 1 also unless their ROR get balanced well than they be with the rest.

    I think HE gonna be overbuffed than hotfixed propably with cost :(
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 44
    I'm very interested to see if Norsca will keep their -52% slow.

    If they do I think it will shake up the game a lot especially vs fast factions like the Elves.

    As a DE main I hope the doomfire warlocks aren't OP as sisters of thorn. Doombolt is a good spell to get for "free" as the opponent can dodge it. The other spell they will get is probably soul blight and jesus christ will that be crazy. Not OP crazy but it synergise very well with my Handbow corsairs!

    I'm a little worried about HE getting ranged AP. This is the only thing they lack and will put their unit roster to WE and TK level. Hopefully CA finally understands that long range, AP, move and shoot and 360 shooting is bad game design.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,096

    Something like Shades, but worse melee, no stalk and longer range. But maybe the will be closer to glade guard, in 600-700 price range

    Dont even try to predict their price, CA has it's own way of design. For example :
    Chaos Warriors GW - 17 points cost per model on TT ( 850 in game )
    Greatswords - 11( 950 )
    Grave Guard GW - 12 ( 950 )
    But that usually happens because single player TW requires clear differences between the different tiers. So when a certain faction has too many units in the same price range, they move some up or down.

    There is no real reason to move sisters up or down, as they have a very unique role already.
    turrehund said:

    SIsters of Avelorn will very likely be similar to Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters of Hoeth - Expensive and extremely efficient at what they do, but easy to counter. Sisters of Avelorn will likely be a Waywatcher tier unit with higher damage output but unable to fire while moving and will collapse much faster in melee combat.

    If they are allowed to fire unimpeded they will devastate any non-shielded unit but I'd reckon even a single charge from low tier cav would crumble them. Although if they for some reason get Martial Mastery instead of Martial Prowess they'd probably overperform somewhat in melee when above 50% HP.

    i seriously doubt that. Not only because they were much cheaper than WWs in TT, and probably also better at melee (higher WS + martial prowess+ light armour vs extra attack), but mostly because a 1100 ranged ap unit with low range and low melee stats will require an insane ranged damage to be balanced. And that is going to generate a lot of criticism due to people being auto destroyed the moment they are in range.


  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,189

    my prediction for tiers in may.

    1 - HE
    2 - rest
    3 - Greenskins

    Chaos and WE have potential to be tier 1 also unless their ROR get balanced well than they be with the rest.

    I think HE gonna be overbuffed than hotfixed propably with cost :(

    Bs, Helf units need stats to perform and not cost decreases
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 2,813
    TeNoSkill said:

    my prediction for tiers in may.

    1 - HE
    2 - rest
    3 - Greenskins

    Chaos and WE have potential to be tier 1 also unless their ROR get balanced well than they be with the rest.

    I think HE gonna be overbuffed than hotfixed propably with cost :(

    Bs, Helf units need stats to perform and not cost decreases
    They hardly nerf stats in a hotfix.
  • VistahmVistahm Registered Users Posts: 82
    Imo is pretty obvious the next patch is going to be a mess and unbalance a lot of things.

    do not forget we are going to get

    A new faction who was damm good in wh1.

    Two of the wh2 factions are going to get their complete roster, and now all wh2 factions are pretty decent, so for the fortunate ones is going to be a huge boost with foreseeable consequences.

    And a lot of the wh1 factions are also going to get theirs rors.

    Obviously is not going to be like the crazy first week of mortal empires, where we see ancient mortal and undead empires crumbling and falling down forever, but is going to be close nonetheless

    But you know this is what happens when you release a lot of content at once ,instead of spreading it more evenly in the **** four months they had to release it.

    **** ridicoluos that wh2 has got less content since released that rome 2.


    btw funnily enough a lot of people are asking for HE nerfs one month ahead., when we do not know for sure the factions that are going to be in the lord pack.

    i think this is a new record ;)
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 2,813
    FYI im not asking for HE nerfs just a predictions they will get overbuffed.
  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Registered Users Posts: 160
    It will also be interesting to see if High Elves will get Skycutters and/or the Lion Chariot. Flying, long rang artillery would further add to their air dominance. The Lion Chariot an armor piercing chariot to smash elite infantry they also lack atm.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 1,096

    It will also be interesting to see if High Elves will get Skycutters and/or the Lion Chariot. Flying, long rang artillery would further add to their air dominance. The Lion Chariot an armor piercing chariot to smash elite infantry they also lack atm.

    Technically, they don't lack that.
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