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Something That Worries Me

Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior MemberPosts: 19,629Registered Users
edited April 2018 in General Discussion
The various LPs I have seen show me that ToB still contains a very annoying bugbear that has vexed me in all of the recent TW titles since R2, units and their UI still disappear behind foliage and buildings. This is something that has made any battles on heavily forested maps a chore to play since you often can't see what your units are doing or even which they direction they are facing. Would you kindly make it so that at least the UI is always in front? I know S2 had it work that way, and Arena even adds colored rims to units behind obstacles.

Please don't devalue forest battles again.

Comments

  • admilvoroadmilvoro Senior Member Posts: 657Registered Users
    I second this, it was quite annoying to deal with maps fighting campaign battles or multiplayer battles.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Posts: 2,589Registered Users
    Doesn’t pushing space bar do this?

    I think you have to hold it, though. I have never checked to see if you can change it to toggle, but if you can’t that should be an option.
    ò_ó
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,629Registered Users
    Spacebar only displays the ground UI...which is also obscured by map features.

    No, CA, has to fix this already, it's making maps unplayable in way too many titles now.

  • gornoviceanugornoviceanu Member Posts: 37Registered Users
    I always like to immerse myself and think of the UI problems as a representation of the chaos of fighting in forests :) I know it's a "workaround" but that's how I fix it in my head.

    Then again, I am more of a SP type of TW player so I have the advantage of pausing.
  • mfr001mfr001 Senior Member Posts: 215Registered Users
    Forest effects combined with the line of sight mechanism can lead to some of the most realistic battles, where both sides try to locate the other and can end up having to improvise if, for example right wing first encounters right wing. Also, the terrain may allow exposure of one unit to lead the enemy in a direction which puts them at a disadvantage.

    I far prefer this to the ambush mechanism, which seems to assume that no army ever has scouts out and always proceeds in a single column.
  • SkyjackSkyjack Posts: 89Registered Users
    I ne

    I always like to immerse myself and think of the UI problems as a representation of the chaos of fighting in forests :) I know it's a "workaround" but that's how I fix it in my head.

    Then again, I am more of a SP type of TW player so I have the advantage of pausing.


    This.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,629Registered Users
    edited April 2018
    mfr001 said:

    Forest effects combined with the line of sight mechanism can lead to some of the most realistic battles, where both sides try to locate the other and can end up having to improvise if, for example right wing first encounters right wing. Also, the terrain may allow exposure of one unit to lead the enemy in a direction which puts them at a disadvantage.

    I far prefer this to the ambush mechanism, which seems to assume that no army ever has scouts out and always proceeds in a single column.

    Not being able to see your own units or their UI has nothing to do with the LoS mechanics, it's just bad game design that makes battles in heavily forested maps unplayable.

    Here. this is a screenshot from WH2:



    Can you tell what's going on? ToB has the same visibility issues from the LPs I've watched.

    This isn't fun to play. Not at all.

  • mfr001mfr001 Senior Member Posts: 215Registered Users

    mfr001 said:

    Forest effects combined with the line of sight mechanism can lead to some of the most realistic battles, where both sides try to locate the other and can end up having to improvise if, for example right wing first encounters right wing. Also, the terrain may allow exposure of one unit to lead the enemy in a direction which puts them at a disadvantage.

    I far prefer this to the ambush mechanism, which seems to assume that no army ever has scouts out and always proceeds in a single column.

    Not being able to see your own units or their UI has nothing to do with the LoS mechanics, it's just bad game design that makes battles in heavily forested maps unplayable.

    Here. this is a screenshot from WH2:



    Can you tell what's going on? ToB has the same visibility issues from the LPs I've watched.

    This isn't fun to play. Not at all.
    "Forest effects combined with the line of sight mechanism"

    A general in a forest battle is unlikely to have even less idea of where his units are than you have here, the minimap is the guide. I tend to get more fun out of these maps, even if the enemy start in the forest and I have to play hide and seek.

    The point about line of sight is that particularly when defending you can use line of sight to avoid having most of your units hidden and one or two visible. The aim is to get the enemy to march towards the visible units and dispose the rest of your army ready to intercept them.

    There is a particular map rather like your example but with a narrow gap between two stretches of forest. If I am on the higher terrain I like to place artillery or a similar unit right at the back in clear view. My aim is the enemy the jam in the sandwich. When it works well it is very satisfying.

    I suspect we will never agree on this, but from my point of view it is an accurate representation of the difficulties inherent in forest battles.

    P. S. Re your sdreenshot:

    I would expand the minimap to get a better view of what is happening. If attacking I would normally group most infantry in a line to carry out a sweep of the battlefield to locate the enemy but with some of the best infantry behind the line at the edges in case I do not encounter the enemy head on and risk being flanked, likewise with cavalry or other high speed units.

    If you move units individually it will certainly be much harder to keep track of what is happening and ensure that all units are engaging the enemy as far as possible.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,629Registered Users
    edited April 2018
    I really don't give a damn about this sort of thing being "realistic", then it should logically follow that you can only command troops from the first-person view of your general and only give orders to units that are within shouting distance. Would you like if CA actually went the full mile in there? Then better don't talk about "realism".

    It's also funny that you at the same time argue for this feature to be "realistic" while at the same time advising me to use the minimap, as if Dark Age generals had such real-time updated maps with them. The tactical map takes a lot of information away and removes certain unit controls, so that's no solution at all.

    I always groan when I see a map being loaded that is heavily forested because I know it will be a chore to play through. Forest battles suck as long as visibility is such a huge issue. It needs to be fixed yesterday.

  • mfr001mfr001 Senior Member Posts: 215Registered Users
    Any sensible commander will use runners or gallopers to communicate with units. (In fact I have in the past played a few table-top games with exactly this mechanism. Admittedly it can be quite slow, and it does require trying to second guess a human opponent so that initial orders cover the different possible contingencies. When it goes well it is very satisfying.) I would be happy to try a sensible system along these lines, just not the version you present.

    The map I was referring to is the small one in the top right of the screen, which just gives a different presentation of the information clearly visible in your screenshot. I don't recall ever using the tactical map in any battle. Any early medieval general worth his plunder would try to find the best possible view point even in a forest.

    If it is such a chore, use autoresolve.

    The suggestions I made were ways in which you might tackle forest battles with less stress, however you seem to be content to carry on as before and I will leave you to it.
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