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multiplayer balance - Berserkers/chevrons/low tier spears/missiles

SnipingAchillesSnipingAchilles Senior MemberBelgiumRegistered Users Posts: 294
edited May 2018 in Multiplayer
Hello CA,

As with every other Total War release, there's a unit that is a thorn in the eye. We've had Oathsworn for Rome II, Tagmata cavalry for Atilla, Demygryph knights with halberds for Warhammer. But for Thrones of Britannia, it is the berserker.

These guys are really, really strong. They don't have a lot of men in a unit, but every man in a berserker unit fights for 3 in another! They literally beat every single other infantry unit in the game with ease. And it shows, as berserker spam is still common in quick match and in tournaments. Usually, the player with the most berserkers wins.

I've hosted the very first tournament for Thrones of Britannia with a ruleset of no artillery and a maximum of 4 of the same unit. And yes, even with a unit restriction of 4 of the same it came down to whomever could do a better job at using and protecting his berserkers.

So with this in mind I sat down with Panda_Warrior to discuss the current balance issues of the game. We came up with some suggestions that really should improve the current state of the game.

Berserkers

For berserkers we suggest the following changes:
  • A price increase to 1200
  • Bringing melee skill back to 50 (-10 decrease)
Our reasoning behind these changes:

Berserkers should rightfully be a scary unit, but should also be priced as such. Having strong stats and abilities like fear and immune to fear certainly is reason enough to drive up the price. Also, increasing their price means you cannot bring as many of them anymore. With that being said, we do think that they could use a nerf in melee skill to bring them more in-line vs elite swords and elite axes.

To even add more prove that these changes would do the game good. We simulated a game with a berserker spam against a balanced build. We acted as if the berserkers costed 1200 instead of 900 and the 100 gold spearmen were trash. (so before going into battle, I had #berserkers x 300 gold left, in our case 7 berserkes so 2100 gold)

Replay is in attachments.

Spears that cost 100

Some low tier spears provide too much presence and blocking power on the field. We feel that spears that only cost 100 gold should be "bad" in every aspect.

We feel that spears costing 100 should have a shieldvalue of max 15 or less.

This way it should give people more incentive to consider picking the more expensive and better spears.

Chevron upgrades on units

Right now, these are linear. It costs 30 gold to add experience to a unit in custom games and multiplayer battles. This should be scaled according to unit price. The more expensive a unit is, the more expensive it should be to give it extra experience.

Our reasoning behind these changes:

Right now it is really easy to rank up elite swords for a cheap price and surround them with a lot of low tier units. Scaling the price experience/chevrons with the unit price should get rid of this problem and make the game feel better overall.

Missiles

We firmly believe that right now it would be a bad idea to touch missiles.

Wrapping things up ...


These are not a lot of changes, but they are needed. As we have yet to unravel the game balance after the berserkers are brought back in line.

For anyone reading this, let us know what you think. We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Best regards,
Achilles
Panda_Warrior

EDIT: typo
AggonyAchilles on Steam.

YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/snipingachilles
Post edited by SnipingAchilles on

Comments

  • TezcatlipocaTezcatlipoca Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 154
    I just want to express my support to this petition. Berserker Spam has really made the game flat. Also the chevron upgrades are too cheap for what you get, if I recall, you only need 370 to fully upgrade a unit which will be almost invincible. Consider a fully upgraded Berserker... Scalating chevron prices seems as the solution. Perhaps a 100 increase to 100 Spears would be a solution to the cheap spear problem. I think is the cheapest unit ever in any Total War. But because there are 200 spears already, something has to be done: either eliminate cheap spears or increase price for the rest of the spears.
    a.k.a. Quetzalcoatl; Aeneas; Vlixes.
    Playing TW since 2000.
  • MASK_NOONEMASK_NOONE Registered Users Posts: 7
    edited May 2018
    My thoughts exactly!
    Yeah could you image that your opponent use 9 berserkers, 10 100-gold spears and one gereral?
    9 berserkers could be a doom power to crush any line, and 100-gold spears could effectively block the cavalry to flank or assault the rear of berserker.
    I really wish to know if CA really tested the effect of 100-gold spears vs 900-gold or 1000-gold cavalrys?

    I have tried crossbows, longbows, two-had axes which 100 golds expensive than berserker, but I can promise my chance is still so little.
    I really don't wish to use berserkers fighting each other again and again... but that is really what is happening in ranking.
    Very boring.
    Post edited by MASK_NOONE on
  • MASK_NOONEMASK_NOONE Registered Users Posts: 7

    I just want to express my support to this petition. Berserker Spam has really made the game flat. Also the chevron upgrades are too cheap for what you get, if I recall, you only need 370 to fully upgrade a unit which will be almost invincible. Consider a fully upgraded Berserker... Scalating chevron prices seems as the solution. Perhaps a 100 increase to 100 Spears would be a solution to the cheap spear problem. I think is the cheapest unit ever in any Total War. But because there are 200 spears already, something has to be done: either eliminate cheap spears or increase price for the rest of the spears.

    what a horrible idea...fully upgraded Berserker... :(:(:(
  • MASK_NOONEMASK_NOONE Registered Users Posts: 7
    edited May 2018

    I just want to express my support to this petition. Berserker Spam has really made the game flat. Also the chevron upgrades are too cheap for what you get, if I recall, you only need 370 to fully upgrade a unit which will be almost invincible. Consider a fully upgraded Berserker... Scalating chevron prices seems as the solution. Perhaps a 100 increase to 100 Spears would be a solution to the cheap spear problem. I think is the cheapest unit ever in any Total War. But because there are 200 spears already, something has to be done: either eliminate cheap spears or increase price for the rest of the spears.

    My suggestion is to limit berserker to up to 3 units and forbid upgrading it.
    Post edited by MASK_NOONE on
  • HugothesterHugothester Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 566
    I agree with not touching the missiles, I disagree with all the rest.

    I don´t want berserkers to be nerfed, it would be enough to limit them to 2 per army as a special unit. The whole thing about berserkers is that they are insanely strong, and you want to reduce their melee and increase their cost so they can become another generic unit... Well, no, I do no agree with that.

    In what regards 100 lancers, I find that they are at least somewhat useful, those 100 units from rome 2 were useless in any kind of sittuation, now at least they can hold a flank for a few minutes before they fall, even if they do not kill almost anything. It is fun, gives more tactical options and you have more untis in the battlefield, which always help to give inmersion.

    Let´s stop trying to make everything balanced as if this was an e-sport, part of the fun of these historical games is that you cannot balance certain things, it would be as balancing 1940´s Germany with Poland, it would not make any sense. They did it in Rome 2 and now all units are so generic I do not feel like playing it anymore.
    Biggest Spanish total war youtube Channel
    https://www.youtube.com/user/hugothester
  • SnipingAchillesSnipingAchilles Senior Member BelgiumRegistered Users Posts: 294
    edited May 2018

    I agree with not touching the missiles, I disagree with all the rest.

    I don´t want berserkers to be nerfed, it would be enough to limit them to 2 per army as a special unit. The whole thing about berserkers is that they are insanely strong, and you want to reduce their melee and increase their cost so they can become another generic unit... Well, no, I do no agree with that.

    In what regards 100 lancers, I find that they are at least somewhat useful, those 100 units from rome 2 were useless in any kind of sittuation, now at least they can hold a flank for a few minutes before they fall, even if they do not kill almost anything. It is fun, gives more tactical options and you have more untis in the battlefield, which always help to give inmersion.

    Let´s stop trying to make everything balanced as if this was an e-sport, part of the fun of these historical games is that you cannot balance certain things, it would be as balancing 1940´s Germany with Poland, it would not make any sense. They did it in Rome 2 and now all units are so generic I do not feel like playing it anymore.

    Hey Hugothester

    Berserkers are a special unit and will still be a special unit after these changes. Nerfing their melee skill a little bit will simply bring them more in-line vs elite swords/axes. They will still destroy every unit in a 1v1 nonetheless.

    The 1940's argument does not make any sense here. A game needs to be fun in all aspects. How can it be fun if there is one unit to rule them all? Have you tried playing some quick matches on ladder or a tournament event?

    You're saying you want to limit berserkers to a maximum of 2? That is in fact way more radical in terms of balancing than what we are suggesting here... We are simply asking to increase their price and nerf their melee skill a little bit. Something that will have no influence when fighting anything other than elite troops. And it pushes them in the special unit catagory. They will still be as powerfull as they are now.

    I say we certainly shouldn't stop trying to balance everything. I do agree that we should not try to make it balanced as if this was an e-sport because that is an ideal that we will never, ever reach due to a lack of players at the moment and CA's patching policy.

    These changes don't change anything in campaign, and don't change anything in your siege/custom/multiplayer games. Only that you have to think a bit more about what you want to bring to the table.

    I don't really know what you mean by units becoming generic trough balancing?




    Post edited by SnipingAchilles on
    AggonyAchilles on Steam.

    YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/snipingachilles
  • PandaTheWarriorPandaTheWarrior Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 946
    the bad thing with the berserk current state is that they are auto include, and basically, you don't want auto include d units in a game. It's bad for diversity. If you limit to 2, then they will always be 2 berserk etc.

    If you prefer historical comparaison, the plan is to offer choice, like civil war in spain when it could have go either side.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

    I'm Panda_Warrior on steam.
  • TezcatlipocaTezcatlipoca Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 154

    I agree with not touching the missiles, I disagree with all the rest.

    I don´t want berserkers to be nerfed, it would be enough to limit them to 2 per army as a special unit. The whole thing about berserkers is that they are insanely strong, and you want to reduce their melee and increase their cost so they can become another generic unit... Well, no, I do no agree with that.

    In what regards 100 lancers, I find that they are at least somewhat useful, those 100 units from rome 2 were useless in any kind of sittuation, now at least they can hold a flank for a few minutes before they fall, even if they do not kill almost anything. It is fun, gives more tactical options and you have more untis in the battlefield, which always help to give inmersion.

    Let´s stop trying to make everything balanced as if this was an e-sport, part of the fun of these historical games is that you cannot balance certain things, it would be as balancing 1940´s Germany with Poland, it would not make any sense. They did it in Rome 2 and now all units are so generic I do not feel like playing it anymore.

    Hey Hugothester

    Berserkers are a special unit and will still be a special unit after these changes. Nerfing their melee skill a little bit will simply bring them more in-line vs elite swords/axes. They will still destroy every unit in a 1v1 nonetheless.

    The 1940's argument does not make any sense here. A game needs to be fun in all aspects. How can it be fun if there is one unit to rule them all? Have you tried playing some quick matches on ladder or a tournament event?

    You're saying you want to limit berserkers to a maximum of 2? That is in fact way more radical in terms of balancing than what we are suggesting here... We are simply asking to increase their price and nerf their melee skill a little bit. Something that will have no influence when fighting anything other than elite troops. And it pushes them in the special unit catagory. They will still be as powerfull as they are now.

    I say we certainly shouldn't stop trying to balance everything. I do agree that we should not try to make it balanced as if this was an e-sport because that is an ideal that we will never, ever reach due to a lack of players at the moment and CA's patching policy.

    These changes don't change anything in campaign, and don't change anything in your siege/custom/multiplayer games. Only that you have to think a bit more about what you want to bring to the table.

    I don't really know what you mean by units becoming generic trough balancing?




    I completely agree with you, Achilles. Limiting units is radical compared to a price increase. Also, the idea that balancing is making all units the same is a non-sense. Balancing is making diversity in gameplay, contrary to having an OP unit which dominates the battlefield and makes it flat and one-sided. Thester's historical argument is also failed, comparing Germany in 1940 to Poland is not the same to comparing West Seaxe to Est Engle... Berserkers must not be a must, as Panda says, but a different choice within other different choices, which contributes to game variety and fun. It is a shame that CA has never taken the policy to make TW an e-sport. The first step would be to hear competent players and apply changes that solve their complains.
    a.k.a. Quetzalcoatl; Aeneas; Vlixes.
    Playing TW since 2000.
  • TezcatlipocaTezcatlipoca Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 154
    Three days and no Word from CA. I wonder why you, we, guys, trouble ourselves into advising a company that disregards so flagrantly the people that make it possible.
    a.k.a. Quetzalcoatl; Aeneas; Vlixes.
    Playing TW since 2000.
  • MASK_NOONEMASK_NOONE Registered Users Posts: 7

    :s Completely invincible
  • HelpTWHelpTW Registered Users Posts: 21
    edited May 2018
    Even in Warhammer you cant see those abusing roster)))
    Post edited by HelpTW on
  • landrangerlandranger Registered Users Posts: 5





    Counters exist. but berserker still strong.
  • HelpTWHelpTW Registered Users Posts: 21
    Ncr ranger why u not in the Way to Valhalla? https://challonge.com/ru/AWtoV
  • FabiPwnsFabiPwns Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 16
    edited May 2018
    @landranger

    We already had the pleasure to play against each other in MP. Did you use your army as a kite army?
    Never surrender. Never give up.
  • MASK_NOONEMASK_NOONE Registered Users Posts: 7
    edited May 2018






    Counters exist. but berserker still strong.

    WoW, cool. Would you mind sharing the replay to us so we could learn your tactic? ;);)
  • landrangerlandranger Registered Users Posts: 5
    HelpTW said:

    Ncr ranger why u not in the Way to Valhalla? https://challonge.com/ru/AWtoV

    I just saw.....
  • landrangerlandranger Registered Users Posts: 5
    edited May 2018






    Counters exist. but berserker still strong.

    WoW, cool. Would you mind sharing the replay to us so we could learn your tactic? ;);)
    me vs xing replay?
  • MASK_NOONEMASK_NOONE Registered Users Posts: 7






    Counters exist. but berserker still strong.

    WoW, cool. Would you mind sharing the replay to us so we could learn your tactic? ;);)
    me vs xing replay?
    yes, please
  • landrangerlandranger Registered Users Posts: 5






    Counters exist. but berserker still strong.

    WoW, cool. Would you mind sharing the replay to us so we could learn your tactic? ;);)
    me vs xing replay?
    yes, please
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/m4wad1mofa1oo6k/ncr vs xing.replay?dl=0
  • MASK_NOONEMASK_NOONE Registered Users Posts: 7






    Counters exist. but berserker still strong.

    WoW, cool. Would you mind sharing the replay to us so we could learn your tactic? ;);)
    me vs xing replay?
    yes, please
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/m4wad1mofa1oo6k/ncr vs xing.replay?dl=0
    <3 Thank you!
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