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Lizardmen changes for the next patch

VistahmVistahm Posts: 138Registered Users
Ok so here we are, its time we deal with the heirs of the old ones, so if herpetology is what you like, this is going to be your thread ;) .

Overall i would say the faction is still a bit on the OP side and needs some nerfs

Thats why i will focus on that side of things, but for sure this is not a close thread, and anyone is allowed to add their own proposals and of course disagree with me.

So with that said lets go straight into it:

-Hand of the gods is way too good, you can almost deleted characteres like arkhan or teclis with one shot. please nerf

Skink chief: this heroe is still ridiculously OP the amount of ammo it has is simply outrageous. I mean waystalker has 30 and this heroe 82, comon . i also find surrealist that a **** blowpipe has more missile damage than a bow. comom seriously?

-Skink cohorts: i think this unit is way too cost effective and need a nerf of 2 in their md. in tabletop they have endurance 2 even goblins and elfs were more thougher than this frogs. in general i think all skinks units need this nerf, their Md is abit on the upside imo.

-Nerf charges of the rev crystal to 4 or 5. Imo 7 charges is still too much healing. especially on top of that terror causing monster.

Cap the laser and rev crystal to two in qb. they are too good when spam. So that way you can have a rev or a laser or two lasers or two rev crystal.

And to finish i think rampage is a stupid mechanics that must go.

But if that is too much rework, at least remove it from kroxigores.

Cause this unit is currently so bad basically for this mechanic.

I think a good way to fix kroxigores is making them unable to rampage when a skink unit is nearby.

Well this all, if you have some suggestions please feel free to post.

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Comments

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,338Registered Users
    edited May 12
    I wonder if the skink chief ammo stat is the result of a typo. It would be pretty funny if this whole time CA actually meant for it to have 28 ammo.

    The amount of healing the faction has is pretty ridiculous right now. Maybe make the revivification crystal unable to heal single model units.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 669Registered Users
    edited May 12
    Vistahm said:

    Ok so here we are, its time we deal with the heirs of the old ones, so if herpetology is what you like, this is going to be your thread ;) .

    Overall i would say the faction is still a bit on the OP side and needs some nerfs

    Thats why i will focus on that side of things, but for sure this is not a close thread, and anyone is allowed to add their own proposals and of course disagree with me.

    So with that said lets go straight into it:

    -Hand of the gods is way too good, you can almost deleted characteres like arkhan or teclis with one shot. please nerf

    Skink chief: this heroe is still ridiculously OP the amount of ammo it has is simply outrageous. I mean waystalker has 30 and this heroe 82, comon . i also find surrealist that a **** blowpipe has more missile damage than a bow. comom seriously?

    -Skink cohorts: i think this unit is way too cost effective and need a nerf of 2 in their md. in tabletop they have endurance 2 even goblins and elfs were more thougher than this frogs. in general i think all skinks units need this nerf, their Md is abit on the upside imo.

    -Nerf charges of the rev crystal to 4 or 5. Imo 7 charges is still too much healing. especially on top of that terror causing monster.

    Cap the laser and rev crystal to two in qb. they are too good when spam. So that way you can have a rev or a laser or two lasers or two rev crystal.

    And to finish i think rampage is a stupid mechanics that must go.

    But if that is too much rework, at least remove it from kroxigores.

    Cause this unit is currently so bad basically for this mechanic.

    I think a good way to fix kroxigores is making them unable to rampage when a skink unit is nearby.

    Well this all, if you have some suggestions please feel free to post.

    My opinion on your points:

    1. I think all magic missiles should all be buffed to be roughly par with hand of the gods. Also consider that its one of the few sources of single target magical damage LM have. Id be ok with a small nerf but i needs to stay strong.
    2. Everybody thinks hes op, but no one has any idea how to nerf him and keep him effective. Got any solutions? Id say increasw cost of terradon, hes not really an issue unless hes on that mount.
    3. MD is more like weapon skill, not toughness. Nerf hp if anything. But they dont really need it. Goblins are just as good fodder for 300; yes theyre slower but they have silver shields.
    4. Sure, go ahead, probably wouldnt change much.
    5. Id say just rev crystals. Ill miss the triple solar engine build i use against dwarfs lol. But seriously, if youre gonna cap solar engines, cap other artillery too.
    6. Agreed, rampage should only apply to feral monsters.

    I find Lizardmen to be OP against low level players personally. At the high level i think they lack variety in their tactics, which means its very straighforward to counter them. Any nerfs need to be accompanied by buffs to their less picked units. Units that need buffs imo:

    All generic slann
    Kroxigors
    Saurus spears
    Horned ones
    Regular stegadon
    Skink skirmishers (only to make them a more viable alternative to chameleons)
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 694Registered Users
    There are many nerf changes. I want to add some sugar to this medicine :
    Kroxigors - + 240 hp ( on large )
    Saurus Spears + 3 MD, + 5 BvL, - 3 rg.dmg., +3 AP dmg. Strange unit, spears for the price of halberds. More MD to be on par with other similar units, more dmg to compensate worse attack speed and pityful base MA
    Temple Guard - + 5 AP dmg. , +3 rg. dmg. - this will be compensation for dino nerf, because they are often work as main line unit, so they need more versitality to fight other elite infantry, especialy GW variants. Also, they have realy low dmg if we compare them with TT original - frikking 2 attacks with STR 4 as base and +1 from halberds. Black guard has 44 dmg while being weaker on TT. I want to encourage more infantry based lizard armies.
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 309Registered Users
    Skink chief needs a bigger hitbox size on his terradon. It can be very hard to hit him.

    I also think that the cold one cavalry units for the lizardmen are kind of mediocre as well. They could use some little buffs to MA/MD.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 4,653Registered Users
    Lizardmen are strong and could use some minor tweaks but i hope that rampage is toned down alot across the board (or removed)
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 3,615Registered Users
    I think skink chief is strong but not cancer anymore, what i find OP is solar engine missile speed and the projectile box it seems to hits units that it missed its frustrating, other than that hand of the gods and chameleon skinks are too strong.

    Kroxigors need buffs along with feral stuff.
  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Posts: 258Registered Users
    Yes, Love for the Lizardmen! I will be happy to contribute my opinion.

    On Nerfs:

    Can definitely see where your coming from with this item, its a shotgun blast of magic that can be really brutal when used well. I wouldn't mind seeing the item's price simply increased (or Grimlok becoming more expensive, as he allows for the optimum angles I often see the item used to snipe characters with). Kroq-gar is the dueling/damage oriented Lizardmen melee lord, and I would like him to keep that status but at a premium (like most heavy damage dealing monsters for Lizardmen). Glosskilos makes a good point, magic missiles are fairly meh. Would like to see them somewhat more prominent (not to exploitive levels of lord sniping mind) just to add to spell diversity on the battle field. Be nice if the Light Slann Mage Priest could do the same thing with Shems Burning Gaze (overcast?).

    Agree Skink Chief is still a problem. Personally, my avenue of approach will be to cut his damage back by a solid chunk, then give him his ammo back (Talking like 50-100 missile damage nerf). Have him deal chip damage over a much extended period of time, exactly how his skirmisher and chameleon brethren work. His range abilities are key to his character though, since outside of cheeky rear charge shenanigans with a Terradon or putting him up on a Steg, he won't last long in melee against another other kind of character really.

    Here I firmly disagree. Skinks serve their role admirably, harassing flanks or serving as cannon fodder/swarm units. Yes, they are similar to goblins but they also lack the expendable trait which in my opinion is a key difference. Furthermore, skink cohorts are our only really cheap infantry option, so I would be hesitant to nerf it (unless in a future dlc we get more skink units, but I honestly doubt it (excluding Salamander/Razordons/Ripperdactyls, I'm talking actual skink infantry units).

    Rev Crystal: I really wish they would emphasize unit and single entity healing in the lizardmen healing mechanics, rather than have both Cold Blooded and Rev Crystal (and Apothesis, which is why Maz and High Slann are so popular over Heavens and Light Slann) benefit single entity targets so much. I've argued this on a couple occasions, but the Rev crystal should be entirely focused on healing (and RESURRECTING MODELS) of units. Cold Blooded should be the healing equivalent of Spirit Leech and Rev Crystal should be Fate of Bjuna (not match in strength mind, just effectiveness on units is my point). This, I hope, would encourage less focus on single entity dinos and characters, and more on the powerful units of the Lizardmen.

    I don't think they can mess with Caps for these two, as this has come up with the community asking for similar caps being placed on Gutter Runner variants back when the all skirmish Skaven army was the go to broken build. Monster Mash, while it still should be a viable tactic for Lizardmen to take, does need some toning down and power shifted to units for more diversity. This is not the way though.

    Agree that rampage needs work, what kind of work remains to be seen. Personally, it makes sense on the Feral Bastilidon, Stegadon, Carnosaur, and Cold Ones. You get lower cost in exchange for less control, thus paying for a wrecking ball style hammer rather than a more surgical tool like skink crewed dinos are. Horned Ones and Kroxigors on the other hand, not so much. It is here I wish it were removed or altered. Maybe a form of rampage that is a more borderline between control and pure primal ferocity, I don't know. Long time complaint at any rate.

    Sorry for wall of text, hope this helps. Next post will be centered around buffs.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 338Registered Users
    Vistahm said:


    -Hand of the gods is way too good, you can almost deleted characteres like arkhan or teclis with one shot. please nerf

    Skink chief: this heroe is still ridiculously OP the amount of ammo it has is simply outrageous. I mean waystalker has 30 and this heroe 82, comon . i also find surrealist that a **** blowpipe has more missile damage than a bow. comom seriously?

    -Nerf charges of the rev crystal to 4 or 5. Imo 7 charges is still too much healing. especially on top of that terror causing monster.

    Cap the laser and rev crystal to two in qb. they are too good when spam. So that way you can have a rev or a laser or two lasers or two rev crystal.

    But if that is too much rework, at least remove it from kroxigores.

    Hand of god could use slight nerf, but nothing crazy.

    I've been kinda tired about saying this over and over, but skink chief has so much ammo BECAUSE HE SHOOTS EVERY 3,6 SECONDS. Come on, just check the stats, I almost never play Lizardmen and still know it. If we want to compare it to Waystalker, WS has 30 ammo, shoots every 7,2 seconds, 190 range, each shot does 293 damage with his Hawkish precision active and his arrows can usually pierce 3-7 models from a good angle. So 41 DPS and 8790 of total damage(but these stats are misleading if we're talking about infantry because of model penetration). Skink Chief shoots every 3,6 seconds, 100 range, does 160 damage with each missile(but has quite lower AP value), 82 ammo. So 45 DPS and 13120 total damage, his shots do not pierce enemy models, but he has poison though.
    Granted, those 2 are quite different heroes, as Waystalker is better used vs infantry, while Skink Shief is better used at debuffing and sniping enemy heroes. Considering his great utility and mobility he could still probably use another small nerf, but he can't have less that 70 ammo.

    I personally think that Rev crystal is fine right now. If it's not getting spammed of course.

    But cap idea is good.

    Kroxigors are sad, they need some buffs.
  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Posts: 258Registered Users
    For Buffs:

    Agree with Viktor on pretty much all points, coupled with Rev Crystal affecting only units should do nicely to boost infantry game.

    Rampage changes to Kroxigors and Horned Ones should be enough to raise them to good status.

    Standard Steg I think is fine where it is.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 694Registered Users
    edited May 13
    I want to ask question those of you who said that hand of god should be nerfed : how often you see usage of missle spells ? Hand of gods is the only spell of this type that is used regulary even in tourney games. Maybe we should think about improving underused spells first ? Execept hand of gods, only fireball and doombolt are seen ( rarely ) in MP nowadays. I dont think that trashing of HoG is right solution, because we will end with whole type of spells being useless. Luminark and Steam Tank are enough already, i think.
  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Posts: 258Registered Users
    The only one I have used, and in general have good regard for, is amber spear. I like that one for skewering cav on the flank (also fun with standard steg) or the cheeky flank shot into a densely packed infantry unit. I've seen soul quench used to good effect in a similar vein on infantry units provided its fired into the flank as well. Other than that, don't really see them and don't really used them.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 221Registered Users
    about the chief on terradon: the thing is that blow darts can be carried in much larger numbers than arrows, so the huge ammo is really not shocking. Maybe reduce the accuracy of the skink chief on terradon to show he can't do everything at the same time, while increasing a bit its melee capacity ? At least you can have a dedicated hunter on foot, while riding a terradon is more multi-purpose.
  • natesos1natesos1 Posts: 157Registered Users
    A unit cap is never the way to fix a broken unit.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 1,556Registered Users
    Skink chief does not have more damage than a Waystalker. It just fires 3 times faster. Which is also the reason why it need so much ammo.


    The problem with the SC is not the damage. Is the fact that its supposed counters (archers, etc) are not able to damage him. due to his very small hitbox and animations. Not only that, currently, fliying monsters do not charge properly against other fliers if their taget is running away. Meaning that it is almost impossible to catch him in the air.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 372Registered Users
    edited May 14


    Agree Skink Chief is still a problem.

    Just cut his speed. Hero on pegas/hellsteed or other flying units with similar speed should be direct counters to Skink Chiefs.
    Now its impossible to catch it. Its almost impossible even with speed buffs/debuffs(even if you eventually catch it, you lose extreme ammount of hp).

    In current state Skink Chiefs just cannot be countered due to speed/tiny hitbox(especially for the same 800 gold price). This is why its broken.

    Only thing that help are that most Liz players prefer Kroq-Gar as Lord. So one hero slot is taken by caster.
  • ystyst Posts: 2,632Registered Users
    edited May 14
    Can skink hitbox be data mined? How big is it? Ill be shock if its bigger than eagle.
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  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 669Registered Users
    I feel like theres a lot of drama over the skink chief, but people exaggerate how hard he is to counter. Hes hard to hit, but definitely not impossible. I know, because ive played many games as lizardmen where my skink chief got taken out because i stopped paying attention to him.
  • ystyst Posts: 2,632Registered Users
    edited May 14

    I feel like theres a lot of drama over the skink chief, but people exaggerate how hard he is to counter. Hes hard to hit, but definitely not impossible. I know, because ive played many games as lizardmen where my skink chief got taken out because i stopped paying attention to him.

    Hitbox has already been increased on the same patch where dino ones got it. Obviously hes suppose to be harder to hit than eagles. If ppl can data mined the size of it, we will have some proper facts.

    Anyway doesnt matter that much, they r design to do what the r doing now as stated by duck so thats that. Pretty sure 0 data to support any sort of ridiculous changes as mentioned, lest we have some surprise removal of rampage lol
    Post edited by yst on
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  • natesos1natesos1 Posts: 157Registered Users
    idk skink cheifs are not that bad anymore cold blooded being free is a bit much but other then that i dont think skink cheif needs another nerf what cant beat a skink cheif in melee.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 1,745Registered Users
    Skink Chief does damage over time, that's not the issue. The issue is that he is cheap and virtually uncatchable. He can solo a Star Dragon because of poison and 360 firing, and unless you use an immobilizing ability/spell, he's virtually unhitable by land based archers, except maybe WE archers.
  • ystyst Posts: 2,632Registered Users

    Skink Chief does damage over time, that's not the issue. The issue is that he is cheap and virtually uncatchable. He can solo a Star Dragon because of poison and 360 firing, and unless you use an immobilizing ability/spell, he's virtually unhitable by land based archers, except maybe WE archers.

    Pretty much same case hagbane soloing demis, waywatchers owning chosens, scouts destroying executioners, the only thing worse is that those r all units and ere easily spammable up to 6. Pretty much have to nerf the entire faction if a 100m 40ap is deemed op lol.

    Skink chief is a hero and any range hero can destroy it with ease. Guess ppl r just too baby and need to be spoon fed.

    The useless missile capability of skink chief needs to address. Never has a range hero so weak that the missile has no rank penetration and only 40ap lol
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,075Registered Users
    Chiefs sucki that is why you never use them all the time?
  • ystyst Posts: 2,632Registered Users
    edited May 15

    Chiefs sucki that is why you never use them all the time?

    Actually no, i use them quite frequently. Same reason why i bother with garbage races such as bret and empire. Ive mad respect for those who main orcs or the two above trash factions. Otherwise i would be hogging elves all the time like most of thest here do now isnt it
    Post edited by yst on
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 98Registered Users
    yst said:

    Skink Chief does damage over time, that's not the issue. The issue is that he is cheap and virtually uncatchable. He can solo a Star Dragon because of poison and 360 firing, and unless you use an immobilizing ability/spell, he's virtually unhitable by land based archers, except maybe WE archers.

    Pretty much same case hagbane soloing demis, waywatchers owning chosens, scouts destroying executioners, the only thing worse is that those r all units and ere easily spammable up to 6. Pretty much have to nerf the entire faction if a 100m 40ap is deemed op lol.

    Skink chief is a hero and any range hero can destroy it with ease. Guess ppl r just too baby and need to be spoon fed.

    The useless missile capability of skink chief needs to address. Never has a range hero so weak that the missile has no rank penetration and only 40ap lol
    Waywatchers have a speed of 42. Scouts sit in the high 30's. Neither of them fly, neither of them have poison. They also bleed DPS with model loss. Artillery, cavalry and even massed enemy shooting can give them major problems. A skink chief is literally uncatcheable for flyers without slows/snares and except for black powder weapons is near unhittable, plus the occasional hit does basically nothing to him as you cant cut his DPS down except by outright killing him.

    Hagbane tips are a little more of an issue, but are still much easier to counter with your own shooting or artillery. Plus, who brings demis vs wood elves. Reiksguard or Knights of the Blazing Sun are a far better investment vs 90% of the WE roster.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,075Registered Users
    yst said:

    Chiefs sucki that is why you never use them all the time?

    Actually no, i use them quite frequently. Same reason why i bother with garbage races such as bret and empire. Ive mad respect for those who main orcs or the two above trash factions. Otherwise i would be hogging elves all the time like most of thest here do now isnt it
    Sometimes the irony doesn't quite hit home. :-)
  • ystyst Posts: 2,632Registered Users

    Sometimes the irony doesn't quite hit home. :-)

    Ikr, time and time again ppl qq skink chief op, then it reads 100m with 40ap lol and the weakest missile hero in game with 0 pierce. The irony.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,075Registered Users
    I also play Liz a fair bit, I find they cause a lot of trouble for the opponent for 800, with cold blooded on top. More annoying than brutal, but considering how much resources people usually pour into killing him... Money well spent.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 1,556Registered Users
    edited May 15
    yst said:

    Sometimes the irony doesn't quite hit home. :-)

    Ikr, time and time again ppl qq skink chief op, then it reads 100m with 40ap lol and the weakest missile hero in game with 0 pierce. The irony.
    You have a bit of argument in your demagogy, and you know it.


    Skink chief has much better ap ratio than HE princess (0.25 vs 0.22), and barely worse than WE characters (0.3). Its missiles do not penetrate as the WEs do, but it fires twice as fast as the HE and WE ranged characters, meaning twice as many kills against low hp targets. Its huge pool of ammo means that in terms of single target total damage capability, it can do more than 13k (3280 ap) damage. Compare that with the HEs less than 8800 (1936) or the WEs 8400 (2520 ap).

    Skink chief is an insanely good character when it comes to sniping mages and other similarly unarmored characters, while also adding an almost free heal AND poison.




  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Posts: 258Registered Users
    Does every Lizardmen discussion have to devolve into bickering over the Skink Chief?

    How about we talk about something else? For instance the sadness that are Saurus Spears?

    Or, sense there is much discussion on nerfing most armoured monsters (dinoes included), could we theorycraft what fills that loss in power (for instance buffing cav)?
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 669Registered Users

    Does every Lizardmen discussion have to devolve into bickering over the Skink Chief?

    How about we talk about something else? For instance the sadness that are Saurus Spears?

    Or, sense there is much discussion on nerfing most armoured monsters (dinoes included), could we theorycraft what fills that loss in power (for instance buffing cav)?

    I think rampage free saurus, horned ones, and kroxigors, as well as buffed cold one spears would do fine. I already play no monster LM builds and they can be pretty solid as long as your opponent doesnt counterpick them. Those buffs would make them viable i think
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