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Hellebron is Broken - The Cursed Blade is the Problem

Indypride#7329Indypride#7329 Registered Users Posts: 1,744
edited August 2022 in Warhammer Battle Feedback
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocbkQdq4QLQ

WALL OF TEXT TRIGGER WARNING -

So just to preface the video, considering it took myself and a bunch of other very experienced Total War players almost a week to notice the interactions Hellebrons Cursed Blade was having with enemies, I dont blame CA for not noticing this bug/issue. But I definitely want to call attention to it, because it will have a negative impact on both campaign and multiplayer if it manages to squeeze into the final release, and/or isnt patched quickly thereafter.

In Total War Warhammer 2, the text explaining how the Cursed Blade actually works is pretty confusing, but what its saying is, when enemies are losing combat to Hellebron, She nukes them….Its that simple. On paper, a beautiful idea, very admirable that CA has worked to keep true to her tabletop special rules, and this is one of the best ways I can think of to represent that. Enemies are failing in their attacks against her because shes Winning combat, so they take damage, exactly like her TT special rule which dishes out Strength 4 hits to anyone who rolls a 1 while attacking her. The problem of course, comes in the implementation of this special rule.

Essentially, any time Hellebron enters melee combat and makes a successful attack, whether that be against a single entity lord, monster, monstrous infantry, or infantry formation, she will pass on an HP drain debuff that will take between 600 and 1000 health away from that unit. Even if she makes a single attack against a single model on the edge of a unit of clan rats, she can sod off and watch as the entire unit take a 600+ damage nuke.

This is why she has been blending enemy formations so easily, she can quickly make a single attack against multiple enemy units in quick succession, rack up close to 1000 damage on each one, and keep using the mass and mobility of the Cauldron of Blood to nuke entire armies into oblivion in a minute or two.

So while there is absolutely nothing wrong with Hellebron being able to to wreck infantry formations, (which her stats and Gaze of Khaine already allow her to do) the Cursed Blade sends her completely over the top into broken territory, where she literally doesnt even have to be in melee to watch as every unit type in the game just melts. The only prerequisite, is that she be "winning" combat, which is not hard at all when you have the Blades of the Blood Queen Executioners with Guardian Passive and a unit or two of Black Guard deathballing alongside her. If she makes a single successful attack, say goodnight to 1/6th of your HP every 30 seconds or so.

So I think the Dark Elves are going to be very strong this patch, quite near the top of the tier list, and I think that’s fine, completely unsurprising. They were already a good faction, and got a bunch of new, cool toys to play with. I don’t think much else needs to be touched right now. We need many more games, with a much larger player base, to see how the campaign and multiplayer meta games shake out. So I don’t think we need drastic changes…..But I think its quite apparent, that the Cursed Blade is not working properly right now, and on top of an already pretty insane DPS blender lord, its not fun to play against, and its going to be a bad thing in campaign and multiplayer.

Now obviously I want to preserve the flavor, uniqueness, and variety of units and lords. Asymmetrical balance and the vast differences between factions is what makes Warhammer what it is, why its so appealing. But At the end of the day, single player still needs balance as well. If the game is way too easy, people are going to get bored, and theyre going to stop playing.

If Kholek can fart and obliterate entire regiments with his gaseous expulsions from across the map, that’s not a good thing for the game. If you love that kind of stuff, if you want to fulfill that overwhelming power gaming fantasy, by all means, download a mod that lets Grimgor one shot Hellpit Abominations, download a mod that lets Karl Franz call in his homies from the Golden Throne on Terra with some Battuhl Brotha Steel Rehn. That’s completely fine. But that’s obviously not CA’s design philosophy behind the game, and they have shown a willingness and a desire to change things when they are exploitable, abusable, and make the campaign too easy. This falls into that category…for sure. No question in my mind. When a melee lord is able to drop nuke damage constantly, that’s more powerful than Flock of Doom, or Devolve, with no resource like Winds of Magic tied to it, and she doesn’t even have to be in MELEE for it to do its full damage, something is wrong. And I would like to see it get fixed. Its going to RAVAGE multiplayer for sure, its going to have a negative effect on singleplayer except for the people who don’t want to be challenged in any way shape or form. And I fully expect that the balance team will be addressing it soon.

Other than that, been having a TON of fun with this DLC, theres a massive amount of content here, and I've been very happy with the vast majority of what I've played. I think you guys are really going to like it when you get your hands on it on Thursday :D
Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
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Comments

  • irurobinirurobin Registered Users Posts: 1,826
    Thank you for the test!
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    Ouch. QB won't have any sense if this isn't fixed.

    Remember Skaven summon bug?
  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491

    Ouch. QB won't have any sense if this isn't fixed.

    Remember Skaven summon bug?

    Let the DE have some OP bugs once in a while. A shame we might not see her in Tournies.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Ouch yeah. Get those custom multiplayer games hosted until the hotfix is out...
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    edited May 2018
    Well, hopefully it will get fixed, but if it doesn't, only the item will be banned, not Hellebron. This will make QB unbearable.

    @KhorneFlakes . This is what you trained for - if there was ever a time to tag @CA_Duck , it's now. Go, fulfill your destiny!
  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491

    Well, hopefully it will get fixed, but if it doesn't, only the item will be banned, not Hellebron. This will make QB unbearable.

    @KhorneFlakes . This is what you trained for - if there was ever a time to tag @CA_Duck , it's now. Go, fulfill your destiny!

    People will still play quick battle, they'll use Hellebron more often. And people will counter by using kity builds.
  • CA_Duck#1876CA_Duck#1876 Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,679
    This one is on me and I'm sorry that this wasn't discovered earlier as there's nothing I can do at this stage.

    The design for the ability is that she should deal ten seconds of direct damage to a target followed by 30 second cooldown period when the ability can't deal damage to the same target. In practice, due to a bug, the ability will continue to deal damage through the cooldown period. So it is roughly 4 times stronger than intended at the moment and it is indeed broken.

    We did tone down other aspects of Hellebron from the preview build, but not the Cursed Blade itself as I was assuming I was dealing with a balance issue rather than a bug. Hopefully, even with the Cursed Blade being absurdly powerful, Hellebron herself won't be completely balance breaking.

    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 4,003
    I see CA are people of tradition

    No dlc is complete without h9tfixes

    I am also pretty sure de are still pretty op without hellebrone

  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491
    edited May 2018
    CA_Duck said:

    This one is on me and I'm sorry that this wasn't discovered earlier as there's nothing I can do at this stage.

    The design for the ability is that she should deal ten seconds of direct damage to a target followed by 30 second cooldown period when the ability can't deal damage to the same target. In practice, due to a bug, the ability will continue to deal damage through the cooldown period. So it is roughly 4 times stronger than intended at the moment and it is indeed broken.

    We did tone down other aspects of Hellebron from the preview build, but not the Cursed Blade itself as I was assuming I was dealing with a balance issue rather than a bug. Hopefully, even with the Cursed Blade being absurdly powerful, Hellebron herself won't be completely balance breaking.

    So is it possible to tune her back and nerf the blade? Otherwise she's going to get a double nerf when the next fix patch hits.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 4,003
    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 10,027
    Simple fix really.

    Revert to only works in melee, thats it. Same like mortis etc etc. Problem fixed.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • CatholicAlcoholic#6232CatholicAlcoholic#6232 Registered Users Posts: 161

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    How dare you to insult Sigvald the Magnificent in such a vile way?
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    edited May 2018
    CA_Duck said:

    This one is on me and I'm sorry that this wasn't discovered earlier as there's nothing I can do at this stage.

    The design for the ability is that she should deal ten seconds of direct damage to a target followed by 30 second cooldown period when the ability can't deal damage to the same target. In practice, due to a bug, the ability will continue to deal damage through the cooldown period. So it is roughly 4 times stronger than intended at the moment and it is indeed broken.

    We did tone down other aspects of Hellebron from the preview build, but not the Cursed Blade itself as I was assuming I was dealing with a balance issue rather than a bug. Hopefully, even with the Cursed Blade being absurdly powerful, Hellebron herself won't be completely balance breaking.

    Why on you? I sincerely hope you're not a one man balance team.

    Granted, it took those with early access hundreds of matches to spot it. Hopefully, there will a hotfix for it.

    But, this is probably also a good time to mention to those who do make decisions - there's a very dedicated group of very good players who aren't being offered to help with beta testing, which is both a shame and a waste.

    I know competitive MP isn't high up on the list of priorities, but still... Even though the actual player base might small compared to SP community, it should not be forgotten that most of community content that raises awareness of the game in general is based almost entirely on competitive MP.
  • Indypride#7329Indypride#7329 Registered Users Posts: 1,744
    edited May 2018
    CA_Duck said:

    This one is on me and I'm sorry that this wasn't discovered earlier as there's nothing I can do at this stage.

    The design for the ability is that she should deal ten seconds of direct damage to a target followed by 30 second cooldown period when the ability can't deal damage to the same target. In practice, due to a bug, the ability will continue to deal damage through the cooldown period. So it is roughly 4 times stronger than intended at the moment and it is indeed broken.

    We did tone down other aspects of Hellebron from the preview build, but not the Cursed Blade itself as I was assuming I was dealing with a balance issue rather than a bug. Hopefully, even with the Cursed Blade being absurdly powerful, Hellebron herself won't be completely balance breaking.

    Mistakes happen, no problem. But obviously I'd like to see her melee stats return to where they were, and just have the Cursed Blade fixed so we can have a better idea of where she stands once her item isnt broken anymore. Do you have any idea when this could be addressed by? Are we talking like no patches/hotfixes until the next DLC drops?

    I must say I dont really relish the idea of a nerfed melee blender Hellebron getting all her kills from her broken Cursed Blade instead of actually slaying things, terrorizing multiplayer and campaign with that for another month or two.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 10,027
    Anyway ca been notified so even if they dont make it on time, its an easy hotfix should they choose to do so.
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  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 4,003

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?


  • Lanancuras#1243Lanancuras#1243 Registered Users Posts: 67
    CA_Duck said:

    This one is on me and I'm sorry that this wasn't discovered earlier as there's nothing I can do at this stage.

    The design for the ability is that she should deal ten seconds of direct damage to a target followed by 30 second cooldown period when the ability can't deal damage to the same target. In practice, due to a bug, the ability will continue to deal damage through the cooldown period. So it is roughly 4 times stronger than intended at the moment and it is indeed broken.

    We did tone down other aspects of Hellebron from the preview build, but not the Cursed Blade itself as I was assuming I was dealing with a balance issue rather than a bug. Hopefully, even with the Cursed Blade being absurdly powerful, Hellebron herself won't be completely balance breaking.

    Is there any chance for a hotfix to come out to fix this? It'd be a shame if we had to wait until the next content patch before this gets fixed.
  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    Working like mortis is hardly a fix.

    Hellebron is designed to dish out damage. Adding a mortis effect on her would also be broken, unless her stats are revised, requiring a complete overhaul.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 4,003
    edited May 2018

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?

  • Tennisgolfboll#5877Tennisgolfboll#5877 Registered Users Posts: 13,762
    Good that you speak up indy.

    Good you answered Duck. Mistake happens. Let us be glad it is just a game so nobody got hurt.

    Also good you were allready investigating hellebron. I posted "DEs look to powerful (hellebron in particular)" when i saw the tournament and gobbo king posted in the bjuna thread where you had replied duck.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • Elturion2Elturion2 Registered Users Posts: 2
    edited May 2018
    @CA_Duck Will this bug be fixed on release of the DLC, or in a hotfix shortly after?
  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?
    *One-shots Khloek with the Sword of Khaine*
    Seraphon is feasting on the putrid flesh of a dead Dragon Ogre.

    You got a problem?
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 4,003

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?
    *One-shots Khloek with the Sword of Khaine*
    Seraphon is feasting on the putrid flesh of a dead Dragon Ogre.

    You got a problem?
    Seraphon already died though
    False logic

  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?
    *One-shots Khloek with the Sword of Khaine*
    Seraphon is feasting on the putrid flesh of a dead Dragon Ogre.

    You got a problem?
    Seraphon already died though
    False logic
    Dragons > Dragon Ogres, your Logic is false.
  • misterZ#4111misterZ#4111 Registered Users Posts: 356
    edited May 2018
    why people here are nicer then in general forum?
    also

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?
    *One-shots Khloek with the Sword of Khaine*
    Seraphon is feasting on the putrid flesh of a dead Dragon Ogre.

    You got a problem?
    Seraphon already died though
    False logic
    Dragons > Dragon Ogres, your Logic is false.
    Kholek>>>>>any dragon
  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Registered Users Posts: 491
    misterZ said:

    why people here are nicer then in general forum?
    also

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?
    *One-shots Khloek with the Sword of Khaine*
    Seraphon is feasting on the putrid flesh of a dead Dragon Ogre.

    You got a problem?
    Seraphon already died though
    False logic
    Dragons > Dragon Ogres, your Logic is false.
    Kholek>>>>>any dragon
    Wrong!

    Seraphon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kholek
  • harngerstein#5553harngerstein#5553 Registered Users Posts: 1,029

    misterZ said:

    why people here are nicer then in general forum?
    also

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?
    *One-shots Khloek with the Sword of Khaine*
    Seraphon is feasting on the putrid flesh of a dead Dragon Ogre.

    You got a problem?
    Seraphon already died though
    False logic
    Dragons > Dragon Ogres, your Logic is false.
    Kholek>>>>>any dragon
    Wrong!

    Seraphon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kholek
    Woah there guys. Everyone knows my storybook monster is wayyy stronger than your storybook monster
  • PhoenixKingMalekith#5710PhoenixKingMalekith#5710 Registered Users Posts: 2,533

    I hope other changes regarding some eecent threads *wink wink* were made

    Seeing how almost all factions are getting so much love
    Not fair to leave our beasty and spikey boz behinds

    All factions with ugly characters deserve nerfs.
    *Lifts StarCrusher*

    You were saying?

    *Pulls out Sword of Khaine on Seraphon*

    You got a problem?
    *Smacks the head of seraphon with starcrusher*
    Meanwhile kholek lumbering over malekith

    You were saying?
    Malekith once killed a shaggoth with his bare hands. I really doubt Kholek could have a chance against a Malekith 6000 years older and more experienced, mounted on a Black Dragon, and wielding the Godslayer...
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
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