Thoughts on GS Changes (take 2) -- eh.

Itharus#3127

So Black Orcs can potentially recruit from Black Cragg in 1 turn now. 2 turns everywhere else.

IMO, remove the turn time reduction from Black Cragg so that Black Orcs take 2 turns to recruit everywhere, and then change the recruitment time of Big Uns from 2 to 1. Because as it stands now there's really almost no reason to ever use a Big Un, and Big Un's are far too lousy a unit to warrant a 2 turn recruitment time, anyway. "More Black Orcs!" is *not* the solution to greenskins' problems. It's at best a band-aid, and kind of a crappy generic one that leaks way too quickly.

As for the Waaagh! Skill change. Eh. It's a nice change, but it doesn't really help any of the Greenskins' problems. It's nice if you slapped half your points into the personal melee tree. But honestly... where greenskins need help the most is in their units. If you go that far in the melee tree it means you're sacrificing the ability to take the Red Tree or the Blue Tree -- both of which are far more helpful than the yellow tree. Having one unit that hits hard hit a little harder isn't that particularly useful. Far more useful is making your whole army hit harder, better, and have leadership buffs to give them; it's also not something I'd consider giving up Lightning Strike for - ever. So, while it's a great change to Waaagh! (especially for MP), in campaign it's a bit less attractive (except for Legendary Lords who have more points).

As for Night Goblin Warboss and Skarsnik... The charge bonus being a flat bonus instead of a percent was a bug we knew the hammer would drop on some day. But the other change -- making the charge bonus only affect the Night Goblins -- that was NOT a bug! In a previous patch you touted changing the charge bonus to apply to ALL goblin troops of all varieties as a buff in the patch notes. Now that the charge bonus has been dropped to correctly be a % increase, I do believe you should reconsider and reapply it to ALL goblin units, as it was a huge part of what made a Skarsnik start viable -- it kept the other goblins (which you DO need to use) relevant in the later stages of the game. Now that we've lost 70 charge having night goblins (lol) we'll REALLY need that combined arms approach to be effective.

Spell Changes: I'm sorry, but Nightshroud in it's current form is still COMPLETELY USELESS. You could make it cost no mana and it would still be COMPLETELY USELESS. Please return it to its original effect, which was the effect used for Curse of Anraheir (which you just buffed!!!). Making the missile spells have a higher ratio of AP dmg is welcome, thank you.

Unit Changes: Goblin Great Shaman made more useful for MP. Nice. Why not SP, too? Last time I used one was when you destroyed the little waaagh. Thanks for the additional mass on Grimgor and Skarsnik, the +3 melee defense is kind of a bad joke, though - it needs to be better than that. Any improvements to Boar Boyz are welcome, and better accuracy for Rock Lobbaz is nice. A lot of the ROR look like they either got a pointless zero sum change or a tiny nerf. Weird.

So, basically... "eh". I really hope there's a proper Greenskins revamp coming.

What about the rest of you greenskins players -- what do you think?

Itharus#3127

Just a thought: honestly, the Waaagh! ability should be at the end of the Red Tree, anyway.

hurricane501#1568

Overall nothing has changed... NOTHING.

Biggest change is the BO 2 turn thing.

Giants still suck.

Cav still suck.

No BO shield version.

Biguns still 2 turns and suck.

No actually waaaaagh changes so it will still suicide randomly even when ordered to follow or go somewhere else.

Overall GS still broken to play as...

Rochaid29#5392

I lost all hope for the boyz a while ago, I’m glad they are finally looking into it, it’s just..not enough yet

Zergles

I guarantee all game 1 factions get updates. Chill guys.

madskittls

I think the mass changes, hopefully, will at least make Grimgor and Skarsnik into possibly not get bounced around as much........ But we'll see.

MonochromaticSpider#5650

"Eh" is about right. But it's been a problem for a long time.

WAAGH campaign mechanic is incredibly frustrating at the best of times. "Cheap" troops is great for MP but not that useful in campaign against enemy full stacks. Archers are bad. Not much anti-large capacity, since big 'uns are depressingly bad. Boar riders are just bad in general. Little waagh lore is particularly bad. Most gobbie units are just plain bad. Excep wolf chariots and wolf riders who are hilarious(ly bad). Tech tree is bad like an Uwe Boll movie.

And it's a shame because they're generally such a fun and optimistic faction with a nice and simple 'ere we go approach to life, but unfortunately the joy of being greener than everybody else is pretty much all they've got going for them.

Bloodydagger#9716

These changes smell like a setup of something further to me. Maybe Greenskins are next in line for the Dwarf treatment.

Grom_the_Paunch#8146

I like your suggestion about Black Crag getting easier Big'un recruitment.

There was very little changed for the GS when you compare them to the Dwarves and TKs. I'm a little shocked they didn't do something to make those Big'uns viable, at least.

However, I feel sure they are close to the top on CA's overhaul list. They just totally re-vamped the Dwarves. Surely their biggest rivals have to follow. As much as I want improvements to the Empire eventually, GS next is surely just good sense!

Itharus#3127

Actually I wanted Black Crag to have it's recruit time reduction removed entirely and Big Un's to be 1 turn recruitment globally :-P

1 turn black orcs is a bit nuts.

MonochromaticSpider#5650

And just throwing it out there, but am I the only one confused by Orc climate preferences?

Suitable: Wasteland, Savannah, Mountain
Unsuitable: Temperate, Frozen, Desert, Jungle
Uninhabitable: Chaotic Wasteland, Magical Forest, Temperate Island

So Orcs enjoy hot and coarse savannahs or the scorched and scoured wastelands or even the cold and snow-scaped mountains... And they find it unpleasant to stick around in fertile temperate lands, where the grassy fields are lush and the weather is soft? They are bothered by the many trees in jungles? And they absolutely cannot tolerate temperate islands?

What would be a lovely touch and a nice nod towards the hardiness of greenies is if their climate choices actually made sense, instead of having been "balanced" to not be OP.

uriak

It's mostly a remnant of game 1 occupation.
You could take it this way though : orcs aren't working as a civilization proper, they certainly do very basic farming (mostly ranching) and their armies make use of an array of creatures from these kind of areas.

That means that upon going into temperate lands they would not find their usual substenance or auxiliaries. Of course forest goblins are another thing but they aren't treated there. And let's add that they do a huge usage of caves.

About the jungle/desert, it's a known fact they don't do that well with high temperatures. Maybe barrens are possible but not desert. Maybe the "purges" from lizardmen in aeon pasts have made them quite reluctant to jungles too ^^

Grom_the_Paunch#8146

MonochromaticSpider said:

And just throwing it out there, but am I the only one confused by Orc climate preferences?

Suitable: Wasteland, Savannah, Mountain
Unsuitable: Temperate, Frozen, Desert, Jungle
Uninhabitable: Chaotic Wasteland, Magical Forest, Temperate Island

So Orcs enjoy hot and coarse savannahs or the scorched and scoured wastelands or even the cold and snow-scaped mountains... And they find it unpleasant to stick around in fertile temperate lands, where the grassy fields are lush and the weather is soft? They are bothered by the many trees in jungles? And they absolutely cannot tolerate temperate islands?

What would be a lovely touch and a nice nod towards the hardiness of greenies is if their climate choices actually made sense, instead of having been "balanced" to not be OP.

Like everyone, the GS are prone to be Goldilocks-y about certain things.

They like their climate rough... but not too rough.
They like their scraps fighty… but not too fighty.

It makes sense though. They are thrill-seekers, but they don't actually want to die.

uriak

Haha, this is so true. It makes them stand apart from many armies in the lore. Either they are defending their homes or avenging past wrongs, or are homicidial maniacs bordeline suicidal if not puppets of chaos or undeath.

Skavens are the most similar but most of them are gently "pressured" into battle rather than looking for it.

Theo91#7431

It’s so frustrating that this game is balanced round mp. In sp, factions with elite units dominate. De and he have a huge advantage. They could easily change it to make it more balanced without changing the feel of the faction

Mogwai_Man#4978

A step in the right direction but more work still needs to get done.

Bloodydagger#9716

Getting Black Orcs on turn 2 is a pretty big deal actually. Grimgor will be fielding elite units well before other Lords are doing it giving him a decent early leg up in competition in SP.

Itharus#3127

If memory serves, in WHFB, even after the 40K biology unification, Greenskins can be established pretty much everywhere, but certain climates are better for making Goblins or Orcs. However, Deserts and Tundra tend to be the least friendly to Greenskins.

IIRC, forests, jungles, and temperate areas tend to make a ton of Goblins; where as mountains, badlands, volcanic areas, and generally crappier locales tend to make more Orcs. Although both are made in all regions, you just get a population imbalance. A note on night goblins -- they are smaller and runtier than normal goblins and come from deep within mountains, where normally it's mostly squigs and snotlings that grow otherwise. They are proportionately nastier for all of that, though.

Honestly there's some races the occupation rules really don't make any sense for. Like... why would elves have any problems in human lands? Brettonia used to BE a high elven colony ****. Honestly no race in this game should have unpleasant climates in temperate... the whole thing is a mess and should IMO just be opened up at this point because it's clear they'll never have it actually make sense.

MrJade

Itharus said:

Honestly there's some races the occupation rules really don't make any sense for. Like... why would elves have any problems in human lands? Brettonia used to BE a high elven colony ****. Honestly no race in this game should have unpleasant climates in temperate... the whole thing is a mess and should IMO just be opened up at this point because it's clear they'll never have it actually make sense.

This is why mods are great stuff.

To the thread at large, many OWE factions are in dire need of a rework. GS and WoC are probably the worst off. Empire and BM are a step above. Everyone else is fine.

Itharus#3127

Mods are fine and all for those who like them but I expect the company producing the game to actually fix up their game, too :-P

Also, while I don't MP this game, both sides have to use the same mods for that set up. So another reason for the company to fix up their game.

MrJade

Itharus said:

Mods are fine and all for those who like them but I expect the company producing the game to actually fix up their game, too :-P

Also, while I don't MP this game, both sides have to use the same mods for that set up. So another reason for the company to fix up their game.

Problem is, as a game, it is balanced. GS occupy a niche that is separate from many other factions. They don't need their climates changed as it makes them view different lands as valuable. You decrease asymmetry by making all factions like "temperate" or "temperate island".

However, from a reasonability standpoint and a lore view, it doesn't make sense. Hence the mod comment.

Theo91#7431

Itharus said:

Mods are fine and all for those who like them but I expect the company producing the game to actually fix up their game

Same. It’s so frustrating how broken he GS are. So many posts detailing the updates they require and it seems all of them have been ignored

Itharus#3127

MrJade said:

Itharus said:

Mods are fine and all for those who like them but I expect the company producing the game to actually fix up their game, too :-P

Also, while I don't MP this game, both sides have to use the same mods for that set up. So another reason for the company to fix up their game.

Problem is, as a game, it is balanced. GS occupy a niche that is separate from many other factions. They don't need their climates changed as it makes them view different lands as valuable. You decrease asymmetry by making all factions like "temperate" or "temperate island".

However, from a reasonability standpoint and a lore view, it doesn't make sense. Hence the mod comment.

I was talking about more than just climate. I was going after mods in general on that one.

uriak

The HE may not makes sense a lot, true. They are balanced around the vortex... this wouldn't be required if their main eco buildings for instance couldn't be done outside of ports and ulthuan.

TheShiroOfDalton

As for the Waaagh! Skill change. Eh. It's a nice change, but it doesn't really help any of the Greenskins' problems.

Depending on how quickly you can recharge it, it might finally give Grimgor and Skarsnik a reason to be picked. Wurzzag and Azhag stink in melee and so recharging it with them will be a risk, but you can stick the former two in the thick of it and have it back on without much problems.

Itharus#3127

Yeah, but still mostly an MP concern, that. In campaign you are ofc using those lords - no cherry picking.

Also... egads... Skarsnik. Time to move Skarsnik up to "very hard" campaign warning. Ya'all are gonna have to have another look at ye olde Night Goblin Warbosses now that you fixed the charge bug and then nerfed the charge skill on top of it.

On a somewhat related note. I finally got Tomb Kings. Mmmmmm cost and upkeep free chaff units... Skaven and Greenskins look on with jealousy.