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Grave Guard with Great Weapon : possible changes

ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
Hi everyone. There were several discussions that mentioned poor state of this unit. I had several tries with it and I was disapointed. I think that main problem with this unit connected to it's concept. As we know, main idea of WH is anvil & hammer. Some units hold the line, other dish out damage. Some units have combination of this traits to some degree. But GG GW cant perfom any of this task good enough. GG GW is :
* pretty expencive
* really slow with 27 speed
* suffer from magic/ range badly
* realy bad against anything large
* even with all this downsides, it's perfomance even against compareable infantry is mediocre at best
Real fail of this unit is lack of any real advantage. You want armored anvil ? Than you use regular gg, wich is cheaper, has more MD and silver shields. You want hammer unit ? Than TG, BC and BK will do this for you. Actualy, sheer number of fodder, combined with several mobile AP options is superior. Also, single entites arent only faster, but they also dont loose killing potential after HP drop unlike GG GW + they are mobile enough to prevent fast focusing in most cases. After ME nerf you could think that this is moment for GG GW to be instrument of antiinf countering, but they usualy fail to trade effectivly even against other inf without forcing blob healing, wich is already can be punished by cunning opponent. In current meta some MUs is beyond VC capabilities ( for example, Chaos, because ME cancer with wide frontline was only VC strat against Chaos infantry ). ME nerf was accepteable, but it is the reason for GG GW changes.
I think that GG GW needs some improvements in prolonged fight against it's prime target - other infantry. I want to suggest nerf to CB of 8 and buff +3 BvI. It will make GG GW more effective in its task without making it brokenly OP ( I dont thinkthat 37 combined MA for specialized unit is something broken, considering all downsides ). Also, it will be close to TT source, where GG GW were Executioners on budget - no sweet rerolls with excellent WS, but cheaper and has good killing potential. I think that this changes will help to GG GW to trade effectively, plus it will encourage fodder synergy, wich is supposed VC style with their win-through-attrition tactic.
What do you think ?
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Comments

  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,660
    I think the problem with great weapon grave guard is their cost. Why are the nonsensically 200 more than regular grave guard?

    All other mid-elite unit types in the grave guard price range cost 100 gold to lose a shield and gain great weapons.

    Chaos warriors? Add great weapons for 100.
    Longbeards? Add 100.
    Marauder champions? 100 gold for some great weapons.

    Why does it cost 200 gold to give grave guard great weapons? No wonder they suck they're 100 gold overpriced. I feel like for 850 they would be pretty solid.

    Right now if you rank regular grave guard up to rank 6 so they're of equivalent price they actually trade evenly with the great weapon grave guard in combat... I've even seen the regular grave guard come out on top. If that's the case, that grave guard are as effective if not more against armored infantry, what is even the point of the great weapon variant.
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  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Kayosiv said:

    I think the problem with great weapon grave guard is their cost. Why are the nonsensically 200 more than regular grave guard?

    All other mid-elite unit types in the grave guard price range cost 100 gold to lose a shield and gain great weapons.

    Chaos warriors? Add great weapons for 100.
    Longbeards? Add 100.
    Marauder champions? 100 gold for some great weapons.

    Why does it cost 200 gold to give grave guard great weapons? No wonder they suck they're 100 gold overpriced. I feel like for 850 they would be pretty solid.

    Right now if you rank regular grave guard up to rank 6 so they're of equivalent price they actually trade evenly with the great weapon grave guard in combat... I've even seen the regular grave guard come out on top. If that's the case, that grave guard are as effective if not more against armored infantry, what is even the point of the great weapon variant.

    This is price of Greatswords era of domination in WH 1. Now Greateswords are modiocre, and GG GW is even worse. Also, simple price drop isnt very useful. If I loose, i dont care if it is more cost-efficient loose or not. I go fodder + hammer anyway in this case. GG GW should be somewhat similar to Cnser Bearers-Regular Monks units. They should bring something realy good to the table to be viable. There are Cairn Wraithes and Horrors in 800-850 price range, with something special in every case. GG GW is obslolete in perfomance to begin with.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    I mean, Chaos warriors GW were also 950 a long time ago....

    - 50g and +2 MA should do.

  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    edited June 2018
    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now, while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD but not much better. I would say that they are similar now or GG GW slightly better.

  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Registered Users Posts: 2,607
    edited June 2018
    I think 850 might be a tad cheap (GW w/ anti-inf is kinda like AP & anti-large on cav), but they certainly had no business being over 900 and should certainly be reduced back to that price point for starters. I also think they lose too much MD vs regular GG, so my take is 900 with +2MD. But I'd be happy with any buffs at all.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,706
    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD. They are similar as bad for GG GW.

    GS are not exactly a very powerful unit either.





    Regarding GG GW, the extra CB and BVI they have received in the 2 previous patchs have made them not as useless, but they are still slightly overpriced.


    They need -50 and they will be competitive.

  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD. They are similar, being pessimistic for GG GW.

    Really ? I tested them at the beginning of TK patch, and it was almost always win for GS with several draws ( GS flee, GG GW crumble ). What are your results ?
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,706
    Pocman said:

    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD. They are similar as bad for GG GW.

    GS are not exactly a very powerful unit either.





    Regarding GG GW, the extra CB and BVI they have received in the 2 previous patchs have made them not as useless, but they are still slightly overpriced.


    They need -50 and they will be competitive.
    Kayosiv said:

    I think the problem with great weapon grave guard is their cost. Why are the nonsensically 200 more than regular grave guard?

    All other mid-elite unit types in the grave guard price range cost 100 gold to lose a shield and gain great weapons.

    Chaos warriors? Add great weapons for 100.
    Longbeards? Add 100.
    Marauder champions? 100 gold for some great weapons.

    Why does it cost 200 gold to give grave guard great weapons? No wonder they suck they're 100 gold overpriced. I feel like for 850 they would be pretty solid.

    Right now if you rank regular grave guard up to rank 6 so they're of equivalent price they actually trade evenly with the great weapon grave guard in combat... I've even seen the regular grave guard come out on top. If that's the case, that grave guard are as effective if not more against armored infantry, what is even the point of the great weapon variant.

    Marauders GW are a very bad example: in terms ofpercentage, that extra +100 is much more than the extra +200 of GG GW. And that is the reason why they are never used. They also need -50.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Pocman said:

    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD. They are similar as bad for GG GW.

    GS are not exactly a very powerful unit either.





    Regarding GG GW, the extra CB and BVI they have received in the 2 previous patchs have made them not as useless, but they are still slightly overpriced.


    They need -50 and they will be competitive.

    You think ? I tried them several times, but you really need spam necheck/ Dance macabre to come on top, and it can be problematic if your opponet can cycle charge your tattered line after you overinvested in frontline. Also, to blobby to begin with, hard to go wide. And dont forget about range/support for enemy .
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,706

    Pocman said:

    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD. They are similar as bad for GG GW.

    GS are not exactly a very powerful unit either.





    Regarding GG GW, the extra CB and BVI they have received in the 2 previous patchs have made them not as useless, but they are still slightly overpriced.


    They need -50 and they will be competitive.

    You think ? I tried them several times, but you really need spam necheck/ Dance macabre to come on top, and it can be problematic if your opponet can cycle charge your tattered line after you overinvested in frontline. Also, to blobby to begin with, hard to go wide. And dont forget about range/support for enemy .
    Competitive but not great probably.

    The obvious problem is that reducing their cost even further would put 3 ap units in the 850-900 range. So maybe a buff would be preferable over a cost reduction.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,660
    Well the solution for that is simple.

    Grave guard and wraiths have very different roles. Front line infantry vs terror causing flanker.

    crypt horrors shouldn't have and never should have have armor piercing. Why CA thought this strength 4 monstrous infantry unit to pierce armor will always be a mystery to me.
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

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  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now, while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD but not much better. I would say that they are similar now or GG GW slightly better.

    And? GS are not in an good place either.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Kayosiv said:

    Well the solution for that is simple.

    Grave guard and wraiths have very different roles. Front line infantry vs terror causing flanker.

    crypt horrors shouldn't have and never should have have armor piercing. Why CA thought this strength 4 monstrous infantry unit to pierce armor will always be a mystery to me.

    Look at Treekin, and prise CA for this. Crypt Horros is already not MVP, no need to make it total garbage. And Cairn Wraithes... it is another sad story.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,660
    Treekin are strength 5 and by that logic should be the ones to get AP, but wood elves have a lot of AP and making everything in their army AP is somewhat dumb so I see why they did that. However many of the Treekin/man's problems would be solved by a price decrease, but that has to be balanced against heal blob death stars... which nobody wants.

    Don't be so silly as to think that removing AP from crypt horrors would make them exactly what I want them to be. Either higher damage, more durability, or lower cost to balance them for losing that AP damage potential would be acceptable. I'd prefer the durability because that's what they're good at in the tabletop, but many solutions would do.
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

    If you have any questions about tactics or mechanics in Total War Warhammer multiplayer, feel free to PM me.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118
    edited June 2018


    This is price of Greatswords era of domination in WH 1. Now Greateswords are modiocre, and GG GW is even worse.

    TeNoSkill said:

    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now, while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD but not much better. I would say that they are similar now or GG GW slightly better.

    And? GS are not in an good place either.
    I was just answering to that affirmation. I haven't said that GS are great at any moment.

  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 3,118

    Busa1227 said:

    GG GW are not worse than GS IMO. GG GW are even able to beat GS now while they are unbreakable. On the other hand, GS perform better against units with higher MD. They are similar, being pessimistic for GG GW.

    Really ? I tested them at the beginning of TK patch, and it was almost always win for GS with several draws ( GS flee, GG GW crumble ). What are your results ?
    GS flee most of the times but sometimes win. All battles really close though.

  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,382
    Warhammer isn't hammer and anvil. L2P this game then start suggestions.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116

    Warhammer isn't hammer and anvil. L2P this game then start suggestions.

    Your last words should be written after every your reply.
  • BordigaBordiga Registered Users Posts: 275
    Agree with busa.

    Both here and in tabletop undead units have lackluster combat stats compare with their price equivalents of other factions, for two reasons:

    They are a bunch of mindless automatons, so they lack the martial prowess of the living.

    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable, that to be honest are of huge importance, but you seem to understimated and overlook them.

    Taking that into account, i think they are where they should be, in my view this units are perfectly portraited in the game from a lore and tabletop perpective.

    So hats off to the developeers for this.


    And btw executioners in tt had much more weapon skill, iniative, always strike first, hate and so on.

    So yeah "they were roughly the same" ;)
    All opinions my own.

    Medieval II is still the best Total War.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Vistahm said:

    Agree with busa.

    Both here and in tabletop undead units have lackluster combat stats compare with their price equivalents of other factions, for two reasons:

    They are a bunch of mindless automatons, so they lack the martial prowess of the living.

    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable, that to be honest are of huge importance, but you seem to understimated and overlook them.

    Taking that into account, i think they are where they should be, in my view this units are perfectly portraited in the game from a lore and tabletop perpective.

    So hats off to the developeers for this.


    And btw executioners in tt had much more weapon skill, iniative, always strike first, hate and so on.

    So yeah "they were roughly the same" ;)

    Really ? Because I mentioned difference, try to read. Also, this game is balanced differently from TT. Black Guard shouldnt be more killy than temple guard, constructs melee stats are insane, coldone knights shouldnt be such garbage, executioners have way too much armor, etc. Although, I also take my hat off because at least new elven units priced fairly. You cant spam, and it is good.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,706
    TT stats are a good way of getting a general idea about the role a unit should play, but is not, imho, a good argument to be used when asking for buffs or nerfs. TW and TT do not share the same mechanics.
    Vistahm said:

    Agree with busa.

    Both here and in tabletop undead units have lackluster combat stats compare with their price equivalents of other factions, for two reasons:

    They are a bunch of mindless automatons, so they lack the martial prowess of the living.

    That is a good argument to oppose them having too much MA and MD, but not to compeltely deny buffs for compeltely unused units.
    Vistahm said:




    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable, that to be honest are of huge importance, but you seem to understimated and overlook them.

    Both are useful, but every undead unit has those. The thing is, for some reason, giving GG great weapons costs them 100 more than to other factions, and there doesn't seem to be any reason for that.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,657
    Vistahm said:


    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable,

    They still cost 200 more than basic GG. Despite have same fear and unbreakable(and losing MD and silver shields). For such price increase there should be some benefit.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    tank3487 said:

    Vistahm said:


    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable,

    They still cost 200 more than basic GG. Despite have same fear and unbreakable(and losing MD and silver shields). For such price increase there should be some benefit.
    Be careful. Someone can fix it in the way " if everything is trash, nothing is trash ". Nerf to regular GG will be hillarious. Just remeber that it was minority that said " Blood Knights are fine, they dont need buff ". In fact, I think about some tweaks at least at the start of WH 3.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    tank3487 said:

    Vistahm said:


    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable,

    They still cost 200 more than basic GG. Despite have same fear and unbreakable(and losing MD and silver shields). For such price increase there should be some benefit.
    WHEN DO YOU F****NUTS UNDERSTAND IT !??

    CRUMBELING =/= UNBRAKABLE!
  • BordigaBordiga Registered Users Posts: 275

    Vistahm said:

    Agree with busa.

    Both here and in tabletop undead units have lackluster combat stats compare with their price equivalents of other factions, for two reasons:

    They are a bunch of mindless automatons, so they lack the martial prowess of the living.

    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable, that to be honest are of huge importance, but you seem to understimated and overlook them.

    Taking that into account, i think they are where they should be, in my view this units are perfectly portraited in the game from a lore and tabletop perpective.

    So hats off to the developeers for this.


    And btw executioners in tt had much more weapon skill, iniative, always strike first, hate and so on.

    So yeah "they were roughly the same" ;)

    Really ? Because I mentioned difference, try to read. Also, this game is balanced differently from TT. Black Guard shouldnt be more killy than temple guard, constructs melee stats are insane, coldone knights shouldnt be such garbage, executioners have way too much armor, etc. Although, I also take my hat off because at least new elven units priced fairly. You cant spam, and it is good.
    I will try to explain you this issue once more. so please read carefully.

    your problem is that you are only comparing and taking into account the mele performance of the unit.

    Saying that they lose vs chaos warriors great weapons for a slight margin( im not sure this is for putting an example) who cost 850 while gg great weapons cost 950.

    I said chaos warriors and i could say white lions, GS or bestigors. great wepons units of similar price range.

    The thing is you are only taking into account the melee peformance vs other infantry units, while unit prices include that and much more.

    This unit for example cause fear and is unbreakable, both are very good traits, of huge importance in an actual battle, and course the price of the unit must take into account that.

    So if they beat gs, but of course gs are overpriced like 50 gold. but taking into account those traits, i think gg great weapons is pretty much worth their price.

    and this is all, i know you dont like it, but it must be stated to clarify some misunderstandings, and clear the ground.

    And yes i m pretty much aware that this is not tabletop.

    In tabletop HE spearmen beat out the crap of every grave guard version, no matter the weapon they wield.











    All opinions my own.

    Medieval II is still the best Total War.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Vistahm said:

    Vistahm said:

    Agree with busa.

    Both here and in tabletop undead units have lackluster combat stats compare with their price equivalents of other factions, for two reasons:

    They are a bunch of mindless automatons, so they lack the martial prowess of the living.

    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable, that to be honest are of huge importance, but you seem to understimated and overlook them.

    Taking that into account, i think they are where they should be, in my view this units are perfectly portraited in the game from a lore and tabletop perpective.

    So hats off to the developeers for this.


    And btw executioners in tt had much more weapon skill, iniative, always strike first, hate and so on.

    So yeah "they were roughly the same" ;)

    Really ? Because I mentioned difference, try to read. Also, this game is balanced differently from TT. Black Guard shouldnt be more killy than temple guard, constructs melee stats are insane, coldone knights shouldnt be such garbage, executioners have way too much armor, etc. Although, I also take my hat off because at least new elven units priced fairly. You cant spam, and it is good.
    I will try to explain you this issue once more. so please read carefully.

    your problem is that you are only comparing and taking into account the mele performance of the unit.

    Saying that they lose vs chaos warriors great weapons for a slight margin( im not sure this is for putting an example) who cost 850 while gg great weapons cost 950.

    I said chaos warriors and i could say white lions, GS or bestigors. great wepons units of similar price range.

    The thing is you are only taking into account the melee peformance vs other infantry units, while unit prices include that and much more.

    This unit for example cause fear and is unbreakable, both are very good traits, of huge importance in an actual battle, and course the price of the unit must take into account that.

    So if they beat gs, but of course gs are overpriced like 50 gold. but taking into account those traits, i think gg great weapons is pretty much worth their price.

    and this is all, i know you dont like it, but it must be stated to clarify some misunderstandings, and clear the ground.

    And yes i m pretty much aware that this is not tabletop.

    In tabletop HE spearmen beat out the crap of every grave guard version, no matter the weapon they wield.











    Depended on positionig on battlefield. Outheal was far more terrifying, plus several death star gimmicks ( rerolls from hellish vigour, corpse carts for always strike first, etc ). Grind against undead was a bad idea, in fact. Dispell countering build, nukes and movement game was prime counter to this. And yes, this games is tricky in balancing. If you misjudged this theme with try to buff GG GW to insane levels, you are wrong. I suggested huge nerf to CB as exchange for 3 BvI. Even with this change GG GW will have 37 MA in total, compare it to Executioners base. And 5 CB after all -> everything will wteck GG GW on charge. And I mentioned that there was lower WS, no MP, no ASL rules, but same ST+killing blow, so unit cant operate on their own. And stop telling that undead=unbreakeable. Undead are crubling, and sometimes it is worse than low LD ( like in Warhounds/Dire Wolves case ). If you dont like this topic... well, it is fine, I understand this. But I am not only one talking about this. This is big part of competitive players talking about it as well. And I talked about GS benchmark, Chaos Warriors are underpowered if you look on TT ( White Lions too ).
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,657
    TeNoSkill said:


    WHEN DO YOU F****NUTS UNDERSTAND IT !??
    CRUMBELING =/= UNBRAKABLE!

    Oh i know it pretty well. It was just citation. But you are right.
    Vistahm said:


    And of course because they have two importants traits fear and unbreakable

    TeNoSkill are right they do not have unbreakable. And VC pay for this by lacking range options.
    Fact is GG with GW are overpriced for they perfomance.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    Honestly, beeing able to rout as an melee faction that relies on overpowering and grinding down, routing is much better then crumbeling.

    Unbreakable is only useful, if you have an line that needs to be held. And for what should VC have an need to hold the line.

    In essence, VC will not run away but go down faster. Nice
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    I mean, look at skaven with the hords of fodder returning to the fray and overwhelming you because you cannot pursue them!
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    I agree that this unit underperform and with loss of Crypt Horrors as core AP damage dealers should be fairly buffed.
    Unfortunately it still a bit too weak for its price.
    -8CB and +3 BvI could be a good thing for its niche indeed.

    I would personally prefer though, either missile resistance (which ain't TT friendly unfortunately), either simple cost reduction -25-50. And of course give it +1 speed back like all other units get (Foot Squires and Greatswords), except Grave Guard for some reason (meanwhile, Shields could still be 27 speed).
    My problem with +3 Bonus vs Infantry is that it's not that productive for this unit, anyway for its price.
    You could give 1-2 chevrons with cheaper price and get almost same effect, but against all targets.
    Also, I do think that same problem with Greatswords too, but they are not rushing faction and at least have AP missiles and AP Halberds on their side, which are effective to some point, while Wraiths/Horrors/GG GW all mediocre for their cost at best. And in all my tests Greatswords won against Great Weapons even with support from healing Necro (aka +HP+LD), even though it was close. As far as I remember same results were in HeirofCarthage tests.

    In general, it would be nice to see some buffs for Cairn Wraiths (-25 cost reduction or some positive trait like Vanguard?) and slight buff for Crypt Horrors (+5-7 armor), becaue in current state VC don't have normal AP unit in price category below 1000. Since Mortis Engine AoE nerfed, hope it would open more opportunties for other units improvements.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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