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Legendary Lords tweaks

ReymReym Posts: 508Registered Users
edited June 2018 in Balancing Discussions
Hello everyone,
I would like to talk about the legendary lords that need tweaks at the exception of Alarielle (as she already has a recent thread for her) and Hellebron as we all know the issues about her.
I wont cover all LL my self but I'm pretty sure you will bring the others in.

I want to start with 2 LL who gots indirectly changed in the last patch.

The first one is Helman Ghorst's nerf. Yes nerf at least his cart. And that's because the deregen aura is the same as the mortis engine one. So now Ghorst needs to go in melee while not having the mobility advantage of the ME (or the Fey enchantress).
In order to buff Ghorst of course they can buff the cart in plenty of ways (more HP, an other deregen aura more mobility...) but even then he wont be competitive at all unless the buff are like completly over the top which wont happen (and I think CA won't try buff the cart to make him competitive anyway and I can understand this as it's just a waste of time).
However Ghorst on his own is quite potent, good MD, good HP, 2 regens including one aura, a good selection of spells that can be used in a quite fun way thanks to his book and he is cheap on top of that. All he needs imo is to get the same treatment as Balathasar Gelt in mortal empire release and thats mean receiving the low tier generic mount options at least the horse.

The other legendary lord I would like to quickly talk about is Azhag.
With the new wwaahhgg mechanic (and bjuna nerf) I was thinking he would have been less pick and even Grimgor would apear (as you have to go in melee to recharge wwaahhgg). But then you see that Azagh has the scroll of power so he can wwaahgg 2 times and even 2 times in a row which sounds huge. Maybe it's time to get rid of this item and give him something more unique (or you think it's absolutly fine).

Again don't forget to add other lords in this thread.
But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
Post edited by Reym on

Comments

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,829Registered Users
    Eh, Grimgore needs more then he yet got.

    More hp is mandatory for him beeing an foot solo character aswell as slightly better combat stats
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users
    Reym said:


    However Ghorst on his own is quite potent, good MD, good HP, 2 regens including one aura, a good selection of spells that can be used in a quite fun way thanks to his book and he is cheap on top of that. All he needs imo is to get the same treatment as Balathasar Gelt in mortal empire release and thats mean receiving the low tier generic mount options at least the horse.

    It can work, but are not fun and are not thematic. I would have prefered to have at least one caster support VC Lord with decent missile ressistance. Both on foot and cart. Something on par with Mazdamundi at least.
    After ME aura nerf it would not be broken. Would be thematic. And add versatility.
  • ReymReym Posts: 508Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Reym said:


    However Ghorst on his own is quite potent, good MD, good HP, 2 regens including one aura, a good selection of spells that can be used in a quite fun way thanks to his book and he is cheap on top of that. All he needs imo is to get the same treatment as Balathasar Gelt in mortal empire release and thats mean receiving the low tier generic mount options at least the horse.

    It can work, but are not fun and are not thematic. I would have prefered to have at least one caster support VC Lord with decent missile ressistance. Both on foot and cart. Something on par with Mazdamundi at least.
    After ME aura nerf it would not be broken. Would be thematic. And add versatility.
    Well a lot of legendary lords have other mount options other than their lore/thematic ones and this add versatility in their playstyle too the "fun" dimention can be different from a person to an other.
    And a support lord without the ability to support where he wants is kinda crappy imo. I mean I don't really want to summon his graveguards only where he is on his cart (on the frontlane in other words)but be able to move a bit faster to get on position where I can get some interesting value. You can literally summon his 2 graveguards in a row with his book meaning that you will be able to create a lot of value if you had at least the 66 speed of the VC horse. And even Mazdamundi with his crazy high missile resistance can get shot to death.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 452Registered Users
    edited June 2018
    ^

    speed is only one of the options to bring a support where needed, the other is obviously longer range :)

    Just give unlimited range to his summons and he can stay chill on his cart
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,472Registered Users
    I think Orion needs a hefty increase to speed, so that he and the wildrider ROR make sense
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 452Registered Users
    edited June 2018
    TeNoSkill said:

    Eh, Grimgore needs more then he yet got.

    More hp is mandatory for him beeing an foot solo character aswell as slightly better combat stats

    Yes Grimgor seems to be the one that generates most consensus. He's one of the most popular characters and has been considered UP for ages.

    - I suggested to give him better or map-wide waagh some time ago... well now he could still get improved waagh over the others :)
    Any other leadership or aura could be an incentive to not just ignore him.

    - Another thing to experiment with Grimgor should be price modifiers. If you take Grimgor, black orcs are cheaper. If for some reason it's impossible you can go the sub-faction route.

    - yes, more hp. He had surprisingly few hit points on table top (3), but given how total war works it shouldn't be translated so hard, he had still high toughness.

    - The +3 melee defense, I don't know but +10 wouldn't have been so other-worldly. He's not a death seeker like Ungrim, if blocking a blow means having fun for longer he can do that too.

    - And he should still hit harder.

    Like all LL he could be more expensive if it made justice to his character, it would give a clearer role to the regular warboss.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 452Registered Users
    actually I started a similar thread before the patch but didn't follow-up...

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/217145/legendary-lords-who-still-need-love/p1

    I'll maybe try to summarize to most consensual parts, see which ones weren't addressed in the patch, and add them in this thread.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Posts: 994Registered Users
    One-off self-buff abilities on footlords who cant pick their fights are the equivalent of laughing in your face. Revenge incarnate and red ruin could use some changes imho. Nerf them accordingly if necessary but make them have cooldown, cd in melee, more charges, whatever.
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,508Registered Users
    Really need those hp up, too low seriously. Its bloody grimgor...
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
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  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users
    I haven't tested Thorgrim, but besides the Runelord and possibly him, all the Dwarf LL need to be buffed.

    As AWizard_Lizard noted, Red Ruin on Ungrim is not that good because the other LL can just run away once you pop it. Same with Belegar and his Revenge Incarnate.

    Grombrindle is a joke, as his smoke bomb doesn't do anything. He won't be able to catch what ever he is slowing down anyway.

    Also, I didn't see that Dwarf LL got a mass increase which means they will be pimp slapped across the battle field all game.

    Dwarf LL either need a major cost reduction or some new skills that make them worth bringing. Otherwise it is just going to be the Runelord all the time.


  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Posts: 994Registered Users
    edited June 2018
    Right, this reminds me a recent game where Ungrim was being staggered all the time by not cycling charging trolls, the way they were pushing him as they tried to get in position to hit him, made it difficult for him to land hits. It was pretty disheartening because there wasnt even cycle charging.

    Btw I had great results with Thorgrim and generic Lord, try them out @Smitty404
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  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Orion:


    Again, as I have said other times, imho he needs a complete rework: for starters, he should be much faster. That, as @Louis_1 have said, would also solve the current problem with the Wild Rider ror being useless. The problem is that giving 85 speed to a LL with unbreakable... it would guarantee draw kiting.


    Assuming that such as a rework is therefore impossible -although i personally would prefer losing unbreakable and givinh him 85 speed, as unbreakable is not that great in a character that already has immunity to fear and terror and only has 30 MD-, I would like two things:

    - Stat wise, he is acceptable after the last tweaks. I didn't like, however, the change to his ranged attacks... I mean, yeah, they are a nice extra that allows him to throw a couple shots to monsters and lords without actually filling that you are wasting his ammo. But he is no Alith Anar or Glady. You are bringing him to wreck faces in melee, and his ranged attack is little more than an extra. Imho (must admit I have only used him a couple times) the feel i got from that buff is that it would be an argument to avoid buffing his melee further, but that won't really make me win battles as extra melee stats would have. And melee wise, he is much much worse than Throgg for basically the same cost (50 less).

    Personally, i would prefer a buff to his MD and reverting his ranged attack to it's previous form.

    - But his real problem is, imho, his abilities and items. Horn of orion is laughable, specially now that orcs have a new Waaagh that is basically the improved version of the horn at 2/3 the cost. And his abilities are again, the type you won't be able to use against a skilled enemy, so they have little use in melee.

    And that's what bugs me. You are paying 1550 mostly to get a LL that is good in melee... but not a single one of his abilities actually boost that melee. Changing his "hounds of Orion" into a melee ability, or add deadly onslaught to him, would make him much better at his role of actually smashing things.

    - Finally, his animations feel super slow and clunky. But it may be my imagination.


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