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Bretonnia feels weaker? Anyone got tips for new patch?

TantusTantus Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 2
I've had an obsession with Bretonnia recently so I've played all the campaigns multiple times on difficulties up to very hard. They've always been pretty difficult in the beginning but definitely doable. I'm pretty sure they are near impossible without some extremely clever chain heroic victories against superior forces, or hilariously massive amounts of luck. Bordeleaux isn't "harder" but just has to deal with a full province vampire faction, meaning knights or any high leadership units are going to be super important.

Here's what's different in my experience and some problems:

Units:
I've only played 2 of the 3 factions since the patch on vh/vh and I've noticed less starting knights and no mobs. Awesome with the no mobs, scary with less knights.

Specifics:

Bretonnia: (pretty much unplayable) The Greenskin faction in the mountains are extremely aggressive compared to what I've seen before. They will not only attack you from the northern side of the mountains, but will also send sneaky forces to the south - taking your port from under you. Marienburg is probably about the same in aggression or more, but it stacks. If you're moderately lucky, you'll have some breathing room so you can deal with an incursion and only the greenskins or only Marienburg two at a time, but sometimes you might have to deal with all 3 in a single turn. To top it off, the red duke ALWAYS focuses on Lyonesse and ALWAYS gets it - it use to be more timid or focus on the stronger factions. So you could have a 4th in your little blood orgy party - hasn't happened yet, but I'm not looking forward to it. Lyonesse always being conquered also means 6 turn tech is effectively 6 turns for a small chivalry boost.

Bordealux: (Not unplayable) Not too much different minus the lack of a cavalry unit (I'm positive it started with 2 knights of the realm before). Again the tech tree is stupid simply because you HAVE to get a 6 turn tech that's effectively 10 chivalry (Lyonesse will never be around to absorb). The incursions are fine, and it's nice to not have Mousillon sneaking around trying to find openings to attack your province, but now, you will always have to deal with a much stronger vampire force when you do face them as they will now have a full province. I've been just chain restarting to see if I get a game where Lyonesse doesn't get conquered, but it seems you have to really rush the cavalry buildings and hope they finish before the Red Duke comes.

I know it's Very Hard, and I know you'll say "play on a lower difficulty" or "why are you playing Bretonnia?" but I like Bretonnia and I've played multiple campaigns on Very Hard on Bretonnia before. The balances just made them possibly impossible or just way harder. I'm sure I'll love those cavalry buffs if I ever get to have more than 2 cavalry units :wink:

Comments

  • SherShahSuriSherShahSuri Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,109
    GRAIL KNIGHTS INFINITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,828
    "I know it's Very Hard, and I know you'll say "play on a lower difficulty" or "why are you playing Bretonnia?" but I like Bretonnia and I've played multiple campaigns on Very Hard on Bretonnia before. The balances just made them possibly impossible or just way harder. I'm sure I'll love those cavalry buffs if I ever get to have more than 2 cavalry units"

    Lower the difficulty is not an excuse to make 2 out of 3 factions an impossibility to play on higher difficulties.
    And "play another faction\race" is not an excuse for a nearly broken start.

    I have no idea why they made the changes they did, hopefully they'll realise alberic\louen start is too whacky atm and will receive some tuning.
  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    Bretonnia weakness it is riddiculous economy.

    Without strategic ports you are worse of than Greenskins that dont raid.


    Peasant economy mechanic is also too restrictive at the start.
    1 more unit per capital should be a must. or +2 more base value from the start.

    And in game 1 Bretonnia was ok once you confederated with your whole land, difficult at the start but easier as you progressed.

    Now in ME with supper buffed factions all arround you, your end tier units are inferior to what enemy has. And with riddiculous economy you will quickly get overwhealmed, as you will be able to afford only 1-2 Elite Stacks while enemy will roll with full stacks of Dragons and Hydras in every army past turn 150...

    Central position on the map doesnt help eighter ...

    You will be surrounded by superpowers from every direction come turn 150. Not to mention Chaos Invasion focusing on you ...

    Right now it is one of the hardest campaigns I belive - almost the same as Belegar/Skarsnik.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    I think factions should have different bonuses/dowsides on different difficulties. On Normal they are all ok, but on higher difficulties offset could become high.
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  • KronusXKronusX Registered Users Posts: 1,378
    I played Bretonnia a couple of times before, keep in mind I am no expert, only played on hard but I personally do not understand why they had knights removed from the starter line. They start in a relatively bad position with crappy units and a bad economy. It is almost as if Bretonnia are supposed to be the GS of the humans with the new changes.
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 678
    Bretonnia got nerfed pretty hard in a couple very important ways.

    1. Their starting army is WAY worse than it was. to the point that they can't actually take Marienburg in turn 2. Something that was basically REQUIRED to have a good early game. No matter who you asked, everybody says take Marienburg by turn 2. No longer possible unless you massively cheese it maybe.

    On top of that, They went from having 4 mid game cav to only 2 and from 2 artillery to 1. They also took 1 basic spearman and one basic archer away.

    Your starting army went from:
    3x spearmen 2x archers 2x KotR 2x Pegasus Knights 2x Trebuchets
    to:
    2x spearmen 1x archer 1x KotR 1x Pegasus Knight 1x Trebuchet

    That's almost 50% weaker than previous. I mean it was a strong starting army, but most starting armies have at least one top tier unit and one midtier unit. They should have at least swapped that KotR for a Grail Knight.

    And remember, you start at war with 3 factions, which is far more than most factions start at war with. Marienburg, which is one of the richest starting factions in the game due to having that port, where most factions haven't created a money making building that early, Grung Zint who will send armies in underway stance to attack your unguarded settlements, and Skaeling, who i've been attacked by full stack armies from as early as turn 13.

    On top of all that, if you actually want to have a Bretonnia to unite, you will need to take care of Mousillon because lord knows, nobody else will.

    2. Their mid game economy got hugely nerfed by the changes to Alberic and generic lords money skills.

    The Generic lord skill went from 15% additional income from the local region to 10% from farms, and 5% from industry.

    Alberic's Yield of the Sea went from 150% increased port income local region, to 4% increased trade income and 10% increased port income faction wide. Before you could turn the 2000 gold Marienburg port into a 4000 gold port. This new one wont generate an additional 2000 gold unless you get nearly half the ports in the game.




    It feels to me like the Bretonnian factions are being treated like they are still NPC factions. Just fodder for other factions and nothing more.
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,708
    I agree that Bretonnia was nerfed hard, but all three factions are playable.

    #1: Forget about the Rush Marienburg strategy. It is still sort of viable, in that you can capture Marienburg, the problem is that Grung Zint will get too strong and will crush you while you are recovering from Marienburg.

    #2: Forget about the Rush Grung Zint strategy. Its not viable with the reduced army.


    Instead, we're looking at you Red Duke. We'll fight the green tide for 20 turns. Sending the army down towards Red Duke when necessary.


    If you are Bretonnia or Bordeleaux, and you are not at war with Mousillon, go ahead and declare war. Try and get as many Bretonnian factions as possible into the wars against Mousillon and Grung Zint.

    As soon as Mousillon's army marches, you are up.

    After Mousillon is dealt with, go deal with Grung Zint. After they are gone, finally deal with Marienburg (if they still exist).


  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 678
    idk why this forum almost always eats forum posts when you try try to edit them, it's super frustrating
  • goliath55goliath55 Registered Users Posts: 772
    Bretonnia really needs another revisit. They need a buff or an amendment to the roster as it stands they don't feel complete.
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 678
    I don't think it's the roster, it's the economy.
  • MagicElmoMagicElmo Registered Users Posts: 79
    So it's not only me.

    Haven't played Bretonnia in TWW2 until today. Played them in TWW1 and while I agree they might have been a bit too strong back then, but they feel awfully weak now.

    What's the anvil and hammer tactic good for if your anvil falls apart on first enemy contact. :-)
    And even my knights felt squishy (loads of casuallties from Gobbo archers).

    Would't mind seeing some minor boosts to Men-at-Arms and Knights if I'm honest.
    Probably wouldn't hurt to look at the Bretonnian campaign mechanichs too, as long as they don't change the general idea behind it dramatically.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    The mix of the peasant economy, knightly vows, and eco buildings is quite weird. My last campaign was in WH1, but I still don't get why the industrial and farm chains are mutually opposite.

    I get that what CA wanted to show, was the relative inefficiency of the Bretonnian feodal structure, with the economy wrecked by levies and the focus on kind of income. But they feel more punished by it than factions that are disfuctionnal in the lore, such GS/Skaven and even DE (slavery is a need because they are so bad at civilian work)
    But the lore also implies that Bretonnia is a great maritime power and nothing to scoff at, economically, compared to the Empire.

    I don't know if beyond a few buff there is anything to change for the player. A bretonnian campaign feels quite different, and this is good. But it's a pity for the AI, because the kingdoms always get wrecked early on. Between Moussillon buffs, WE inevitable adventurism and the inability to field efficient armies.
  • VemberVember Registered Users Posts: 102
    You start with one less unit than Marienburg's army now, which is just ridiculous. That nerf to Louen's starting army was waaaay overboard. Not only can you no longer take Marienburg, you have zero chance of even taking Grung Zint in order to stop the incursions.
  • AltarielAltariel Registered Users Posts: 148
    Economy sux a lot wiht peasant penalty
  • Polaris600Polaris600 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 30
    I've been trying a hard battle / campaign new game and I've had to start over a few times. The challenge is really fun though!

    I think going against the Grunge Zint early is a big risk since Mirenberg will usually destroy the remaining army that is left or from the initial battle with Grunge Zint.

    Attacking Mirenberg early is really tuff against their army and city garrison.

    I tried to turtle up one game, build up the economy and trade deals, along with military buildings and about turn 40 a huge Norsca stack came in and destroyed the port city. I had to retreat to the capital, but then i had Norsca and Mousillion in my region running around unopposed. I quit after about turn 65 because I eventually beat both back but could never expand because Mousillion was really strong at this point. They had about 6 regions. Plus there were Vampire rebels , teal color faction, that also was really strong.

    I'm going to start a new campaign tonight and try and deal with the Red Duke first or at least help that other faction which is south of my starting point fight them off. That might give me time to build up and go for techs to unite the provinces.

    It's a fun one for sure!
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