Second campaign pack; Araby vs DoW/Tilea

#915734

Hello everyone

Next DLC will be a campaign pack with 4 legendary lords, like Tomb Kings, and the stongest candidates to make it in are DoW/Tilea and araby. But which one has more chances to be the chosen one?

DoW/Tilea:

-Sartosa was added recently to ME, that could mean that they are giving more terrain to the race.

-Two new landmark buildings added to Sartosa.

-Miragliano already have 10 building slots.

-Spaguetti on the steamDB.

-In the lore DoW/Tilea have more LL's.

-Misterious dissapearance of Rogue Armies (at least in my campaign), which could be placeholders of mercenaries/adventurers (DoW).


Araby:

-Few legendary lords, one died long time ago.

-Araby don't have landmark buildings nor a capital with 10 building either (this could have changed after the update, I have not checked yet).

-Araby demands more work (mainly because of jinns and carpets).

-Carpet in the steamDB

-DoW/Tilea has units from Araby and Ogre Kingdoms, from a developement perspective would better to do Araby first and wait for Ogre Kingdoms to be designed.

-In an official Total War video they said about Araby land "currently occupied by Bretonia".


So the conclusion is that DoW/Tilea has more chances. Altough my heart wants Araby I will be happy with the inclusion of DoW/Tilea, they are an interesting faction that can bring fun mechanics. Also even if Araby has few LL's CA can still manage to give them 4, for example taking sultan titles from the lore, like Sultan of Alhaik for example and giving them names and background, It's 'Creative' Assembly, isn't it?

DerpyRoxas

NeoYas, Grace on reddit stated that only the next release is a campaign pack, about the future Campaign And Lord packs is what WH2 currently has, so in the future the 2 LL formula has not be put in the trash can. That's all.

Sultschiem#8734

I am more wondering about the Lizardmen vs Skaven lordpack....

I want my ratling guns and jezzails ......

Sodoff

oh I would love DoW. I would also love to hear what you think about Empire being redesigned, do you think that will happen?

Dpx79

Would love to see a campaign adding both Araby and Dow as it would add a three way war if you add the crusade into the mix too. Still Dow merc fiction would be the only hurdle but I’ll guess they could just add it like they did with the craft able units for tk. Pay in resources and gold.

Ol_Nessie#9894

baronblack said:

NeoYas, Grace on reddit stated that only the next release is a campaign pack, about the future Campaign And Lord packs is what WH2 currently has, so in the future the 2 LL formula has not be put in the trash can. That's all.

I think the thread is more about what we think the campaign pack is going to be, not whether this campaign pack precludes one or the other. Though it's very good to know that Grace said that.

On topic, I think it has to be DoW. They can easily fill out 4 LL slots and the recent update is a very good sign. As for their Ogre and Arabyan units, I don't think that's necessarily a strike against them as it works in reverse too; if they take care of Ogres now that's one less thing for WH3. They can get a headstart on them and give us a little tease for the Ogre Kingdoms.

Sultschiem#8734

Keep in mind that Beastmen got their harpies as game 2 was approaching, which was pretty much a hint that they were working on the dark elves who have them too.

So I don`t think ogre mercenaries for Dogs of War is unlikely, especially since Ogres are famous for being mercenaries just like Halflings.

urbanmech

ben8vtedu said:

baronblack said:

NeoYas, Grace on reddit stated that only the next release is a campaign pack, about the future Campaign And Lord packs is what WH2 currently has, so in the future the 2 LL formula has not be put in the trash can. That's all.

I think the thread is more about what we think the campaign pack is going to be, not whether this campaign pack precludes one or the other. Though it's very good to know that Grace said that.

On topic, I think it has to be DoW. They can easily fill out 4 LL slots and the recent update is a very good sign. As for their Ogre and Arabyan units, I don't think that's necessarily a strike against them as it works in reverse too; if they take care of Ogres now that's one less thing for WH3. They can get a headstart on them and give us a little tease for the Ogre Kingdoms.

I believe he posted that with the intent of notifying people that Araby as a race pack and not a campaign pack is not necessarily out of the question in the future, since there have been opinions expressed in the subreddit and here about how "omg, Araby can't be added in WH2 if CA's just doing campaign packs and lord packs now, Araby will need 4 LLs and they don't have the units to fit a full TK-esque campaign pack, etc". Now that we know that's not necessarily the case, it makes it easier to guess that the next Campaign Pack is indeed TEB/DoW which has more to choose from instead of the less fleshed out Araby.

Anyway, I too believe it is going to be DoW/Southern Realms, especially with the 2 new Landmark Buildings added to Sartosa, on top of the rest of the hints gradually added throughout the updates. I think DoW/Southern Realms may also present an opportunity for CA to add in Amazons, Halflings and the Albion units/heroes like how the Fimir were added to Norsca as auxiliary, possibly only recruitable from certain settlements (Temple of Kara, the Moot, a re-added Albion island, etc)

Kross

I don't think there will be a DoW faction, but Tilea almost definitely, especially since they are specifically named in Norsca tech tree as an opposing faction.

Crossil#2134

Well the beta patch says Rogue Armies are now properly implemented so that point is moot.

I would also like to say that Brets in Araby seem more like placeholders and it makes sense that placeholders get removed sooner rather than later.

Araby needing more work would imply to me that they would be DLC. DoW and Southern Realms would make more sense as FLC.

Infinite_Maw

NeoYas said:

DoW/Tilea:

-Spaguetti on the steamDB.

-Misterious dissapearance of Rogue Armies (at least in my campaign), which could be placeholders of mercenaries/adventurers (DoW).

Apparently the rogue army disappearance thing was actually a bug. It has changed in the beta hotfix. Also spaghetti might not mean DoW, as it has been used several times in the past (even when Warhammer 2 first came out).

What I am hoping for is a more southern realms feel with a majority human force and maybe a few other non-elf or non-dwarven units (such as ogre maneaters). I still hope they find some way to implement the DoW regiments of renown, like the ability to recruit multiple units of the same regiment (but their numbers are hardcapped in campaign and in multiplayer).

Greymene

Giving the WH3 team a head start by including Ogres in the second game would actually be a brilliant move by CA, and I’m sure the people playing the game would be thrilled.

The way they’ve split the world map between the games there were almost no limit to how many races and faction they include in the first game (WH has always been mostly Old World oriented), and there are still loads left they could do in that region (Kislev, Tilea, Dogs of War, Clan Moulder, Clan Skryre etc. etc.), but the New World and the Southlands are dominated by only a few big races. There are supposed to be others there too, like wild human tribes (savage “Native Americans” maybe?) in the interior west of Naggaroth, pygmies, amazons, I think scattered darkskinned human tribes in the southlands (“Africans”), arabs, but these are minor factions and pretty powerless compared to the Lizardmen, HE, DE, Skaven and TKs.

However, in the far east and far north, the regions they will cover in the 3rd game, there are again many races. The Black Orcs and other greenskins are a major power in the Darklands. Or powers, I guess, not being united. You have the Hobgoblin Hegemony on the Eastern Steppes, the Kurgan, Hung and even Tong tribes of savage demon worshippers, you got Nagash in his vast fortress, the Ogres of course, more Skaven (especially Eshin, in the far east), the human nations of Cathay, Ind and Nippon, the nagas of Kush, and more. So many different races to choose from, unlike in the second game really. So doing the Ogres now either as mercenaries and/or giving them a territory in the World Edge Mountains or in the Badlands where one of their tribes may have settled, and later give them the Ogre Kingdoms and probably more units in game 3, is actually a good idea.

But we’ll see, I’m not holding my breath.

uriak

From a content perspective, Southern realms are more character heavy, Araby has a more differenciated roster. Both would need a bit of creativity to place 4 subfactions - but that sais and I think nobody has considered this so far, the 1 LL per subfaction is not a rule. It has been the case after the initial release of the game, especially as it was only possible to play a faction in one place and no same race coop was possible. But we are closing to a situation where almost all factions will be LL lead and many of them will be destroyed soon enough. (it's a bit crazy when you think about it)

Just imagine another 1 to 3 skaven starts, a pair of LM starts and maybe another DE. Both Araby and SR subfactions will end up in pretty crowded areas.

What are the arguments for a late pack? Ogres can be an starter for the future game 3. A race pack with only 2-3 LL may suit Araby since Norsca followed the model of pretty original roster with less chars. Southern realms are more legit in ME than the vortex for sure, since their home countries are only featured there.

As for characters, CA will delve in lore for inspiration as they have done for units so far. Jaffar may be dead for instance but the archetype is still present. The most well known SR lords are mostly inhabiting Tilea and will require a bit of creative leeway for their starts in the vortex too.

Let's keep in mind in any case that both are a fully aknowledged part of the warhammer universe, they have not been the focus of GW as much as their core factions (some of those were quite shunned in some editions, ahem Bretoniia, Chaos dwarfs...)

united84#8186

Araby seems more sensible despite DoW being more popular.
I am not a fan of Araby tbh but if CA is able to pull off a good show like they did for Alith Anar, then Araby will be a awesome faction to play.

TorriderKnave

uriak said:

As for characters, CA will delve in lore for inspiration as they have done for units so far. Jaffar may be dead for instance but the archetype is still present.

To my incredible surprise, I found out from @Some_Scribe that Jaffar's death is not only never described nor depicted, but not even mentioned once. I was a bit skeptical when I read it from him, but I double checked all the sources in my possession and yes, he's simply "defeated" during the siege of El Haikk. So, who knows now what CA might/would want to with him.

Godefroy_de_Bouillon

i don't think it's gonna be Araby to be honest. Bretonnia has tech to confederate errantry factions on the coast of Araby.

uriak

TorriderKnave said:

uriak said:

As for characters, CA will delve in lore for inspiration as they have done for units so far. Jaffar may be dead for instance but the archetype is still present.

To my incredible surprise, I found out from @Some_Scribe that Jaffar's death is not only never described nor depicted, but not even mentioned once. I was a bit skeptical when I read it from him, but I double checked all the sources in my possession and yes, he's simply "defeated" during the siege of El Haikk. So, who knows now what CA might/would want to with him.

Well technically a lot of character deaths are not explicit ... Grom the paunch, Gorfang... With Jaffar there would be the excuse of dark magic keeping him alive though, a (surprisingly) common objective of all these villain characters pacts with dark powers.
The big advantage with Jaffar is that he brings both a sorcerer leader, and an opposition to more good neutral factions.

DerpyRoxas

uriak said:

TorriderKnave said:

uriak said:

As for characters, CA will delve in lore for inspiration as they have done for units so far. Jaffar may be dead for instance but the archetype is still present.

To my incredible surprise, I found out from @Some_Scribe that Jaffar's death is not only never described nor depicted, but not even mentioned once. I was a bit skeptical when I read it from him, but I double checked all the sources in my possession and yes, he's simply "defeated" during the siege of El Haikk. So, who knows now what CA might/would want to with him.

Well technically a lot of character deaths are not explicit ... Grom the paunch, Gorfang... With Jaffar there would be the excuse of dark magic keeping him alive though, a (surpringling) common objective of all these villain characters pacts with dark powers.
The big advantage with Jaffar is that he brings both a sorcerer leader, and an opposition to more good neutral factions.

And even if dead, CA with GW permission can create a lot of things: for example there's a subplot regarding N'kari in the game. Only the Lizards and Arkhan campaigns have shown him, but I can guess it is pulling a lot of strings in the Vortex. I'm quite certain than one of the DoW will have to do with him unwillingly in the epilogue. Jaffar can be part of the subplot too, especially with the whole Skaven shenaningans to make people immortal...

TorriderKnave

uriak said:

Well technically a lot of character deaths are not explicit ... Grom the paunch, Gorfang... With Jaffar there would be the excuse of dark magic keeping him alive though, a (surpringling) common objective of all these villain characters pacts with dark powers.
The big advantage with Jaffar is that he brings both a sorcerer leader, and an opposition to more good neutral factions.

Well, yes, but usually, when it happens, it's more something like "And then Grom the Paunch fled the field, and despite his forces were chased and slaughtered, he never was found and some say he's still around *cough... so you could use him in your armies... cough cough*". Same for Alith Anar, Gorgad etc...
With Jaffar, he's not even mentioned in the battle, nor are in-universe details of theories given. His forces are defeated at El Haikk and that's it, not even a mention to the guy, not even once.
So yes, he could be brought back a very old caster lord, with a plethora of possible explanations, ranging from mere dark magic to a secret pact with the Skaven.
He could also serve as an opposing figure to other LLs for Araby, like the current and rightful Grand Sultan, whom I hope CA will have the freedom to expand upon.

davedave1124#4773

Jaffar's death? He just got trapped in the magic lamp..

takilung31

People need to stop saying CA will only do 4 LL for one faction. It's good the fact that they are focusing on 4 LL per Campaign pack. However, that doesn't mean they won't do a faction just because it has less than 4 Lords. That kind of thinking is idiotic no matter how you look at it. Nothing is stopping CA from doing whatever they want, and they are the ones who come up with 4 LL's idea anyway

baronblack said:

And even if dead, CA with GW permission can create a lot of things: for example there's a subplot regarding N'kari in the game. .

They already explained in an interview they can choose to do whatever they want from this point. They have already gotten permission to make whatever they want!

uriak

Yeah I meant, many characters are not explicitely killed, that doesn't mean they are still around of course.
I don't mind them fielding new lords. I even if there quite a bit of lore attached to important characters in warhammer, things are pretty variable. People like Malus or Gotrek (I haven't read any WH book) have certainly a lot more written about them than guys like Grimgor. Not to say about Alberic or Ghorst...

And that's fine. For a lot of characters, they haven't lore until they have, because something is done about them. I feel there is enough space to create something interesting and especially with Araby and Southern Realm, there is the opportunity to do TW game design around things, instead of just fishing for appropriate stuff. The reason Kemmler and Ghorst are in is likely because they didn't want to make us play 5 differents vampires, with some a bit more magic or more melee oriented. It's the same reason why they moved the 4 TK LL in such different locations, plus they had the opportunity to bring 4 "styles", the big commander, the serpent themed support, the high priest and the mixed vampire themed caster.

Ultimately there is a chance this will orient their decision when picking characters. In the case of Araby they will certainly consider a commander , a brawler, a caster or two (one more nice, one evil) Same for the Southern Realms.

But it's possible they will settle for only a pair of LL and focus on the roster in a future pack instead. In any case, be it Araby and Southern realm the release of one culture will give a lot of legitimacy to the arrival of the other and raise the expectations.

DerpyRoxas

TorriderKnave said:

uriak said:

Well technically a lot of character deaths are not explicit ... Grom the paunch, Gorfang... With Jaffar there would be the excuse of dark magic keeping him alive though, a (surpringling) common objective of all these villain characters pacts with dark powers.
The big advantage with Jaffar is that he brings both a sorcerer leader, and an opposition to more good neutral factions.

Well, yes, but usually, when it happens, it's more something like "And then Grom the Paunch fled the field, and despite his forces were chased and slaughtered, he never was found and some say he's still around *cough... so you could use him in your armies... cough cough*". Same for Alith Anar, Gorgad etc...
With Jaffar, he's not even mentioned in the battle, nor are in-universe details of theories given. His forces are defeated at El Haikk and that's it, not even a mention to the guy, not even once.
So yes, he could be brought back a very old caster lord, with a plethora of possible explanations, ranging from mere dark magic to a secret pact with the Skaven.
He could also serve as an opposing figure to other LLs for Araby, like the current and rightful Grand Sultan, whom I hope CA will have the freedom to expand upon.

It was stated that he was brought down by a bretonnian lance or an Imperial knight, after his disappearance, the Arabyans revuilt their civilization. Jaffar stands literally on the Grom line, as "brought down" does not mean he was killed, just like Grom

TorriderKnave

baronblack said:

TorriderKnave said:

uriak said:

Well technically a lot of character deaths are not explicit ... Grom the paunch, Gorfang... With Jaffar there would be the excuse of dark magic keeping him alive though, a (surpringling) common objective of all these villain characters pacts with dark powers.
The big advantage with Jaffar is that he brings both a sorcerer leader, and an opposition to more good neutral factions.

Well, yes, but usually, when it happens, it's more something like "And then Grom the Paunch fled the field, and despite his forces were chased and slaughtered, he never was found and some say he's still around *cough... so you could use him in your armies... cough cough*". Same for Alith Anar, Gorgad etc...
With Jaffar, he's not even mentioned in the battle, nor are in-universe details of theories given. His forces are defeated at El Haikk and that's it, not even a mention to the guy, not even once.
So yes, he could be brought back a very old caster lord, with a plethora of possible explanations, ranging from mere dark magic to a secret pact with the Skaven.
He could also serve as an opposing figure to other LLs for Araby, like the current and rightful Grand Sultan, whom I hope CA will have the freedom to expand upon.

It was stated that he was brought down by a bretonnian lance or an Imperial knight, after his disappearance, the Arabyans revuilt their civilization. Jaffar stands literally on the Grom line, as "brought down" does not mean he was killed, just like Grom

I think you're confusing Jaffar with Emir the Cruel, the self-styled ruler of Magritta after he disobeyed Jaffar's order to retire all forces from Estalia. He was indeed killed by the bretonnians during the siege of Magritta, which is the battle that also saw the birth of the Order of the Blazing Sun. As for Jaffar, nothing is known. Unless you have a source on that, of course.

DerpyRoxas

TorriderKnave said:

baronblack said:

TorriderKnave said:

uriak said:

Well technically a lot of character deaths are not explicit ... Grom the paunch, Gorfang... With Jaffar there would be the excuse of dark magic keeping him alive though, a (surpringling) common objective of all these villain characters pacts with dark powers.
The big advantage with Jaffar is that he brings both a sorcerer leader, and an opposition to more good neutral factions.

Well, yes, but usually, when it happens, it's more something like "And then Grom the Paunch fled the field, and despite his forces were chased and slaughtered, he never was found and some say he's still around *cough... so you could use him in your armies... cough cough*". Same for Alith Anar, Gorgad etc...
With Jaffar, he's not even mentioned in the battle, nor are in-universe details of theories given. His forces are defeated at El Haikk and that's it, not even a mention to the guy, not even once.
So yes, he could be brought back a very old caster lord, with a plethora of possible explanations, ranging from mere dark magic to a secret pact with the Skaven.
He could also serve as an opposing figure to other LLs for Araby, like the current and rightful Grand Sultan, whom I hope CA will have the freedom to expand upon.

It was stated that he was brought down by a bretonnian lance or an Imperial knight, after his disappearance, the Arabyans revuilt their civilization. Jaffar stands literally on the Grom line, as "brought down" does not mean he was killed, just like Grom

I think you're confusing Jaffar with Emir the Cruel, the self-styled ruler of Magritta after he disobeyed Jaffar's order to retire all forces from Estalia. He was indeed killed by the bretonnians during the siege of Magritta, which is the battle that also saw the birth of the Order of the Blazing Sun. As for Jaffar, nothing is known. Unless you have a source on that, of course.

He was killed by the statue of Myrmidia. As I can say, 5th edition Bretonnia mentions that he was put down by a lance. The Bretonnia armybook obv say it was a bretonnian one. But it's never mentioned he died that day, as the survivors of his army scattered in the desert.

Ol_Nessie#9894

takilung31 said:

People need to stop saying CA will only do 4 LL for one faction. It's good the fact that they are focusing on 4 LL per Campaign pack. However, that doesn't mean they won't do a faction just because it has less than 4 Lords. That kind of thinking is idiotic no matter how you look at it. Nothing is stopping CA from doing whatever they want, and they are the ones who come up with 4 LL's idea anyway

baronblack said:

And even if dead, CA with GW permission can create a lot of things: for example there's a subplot regarding N'kari in the game. .

They already explained in an interview they can choose to do whatever they want from this point. They have already gotten permission to make whatever they want!

I don't think anyone is saying that. We all remember Norsca so we know that 2 LL race packs are certainly on the table. We are saying that Araby is going to have trouble filling out 4 LL slots so we don't think it's likely that the recently announced campaign pack is going to be them.

DerpyRoxas

ben8vtedu said:

takilung31 said:

People need to stop saying CA will only do 4 LL for one faction. It's good the fact that they are focusing on 4 LL per Campaign pack. However, that doesn't mean they won't do a faction just because it has less than 4 Lords. That kind of thinking is idiotic no matter how you look at it. Nothing is stopping CA from doing whatever they want, and they are the ones who come up with 4 LL's idea anyway

baronblack said:

And even if dead, CA with GW permission can create a lot of things: for example there's a subplot regarding N'kari in the game. .

They already explained in an interview they can choose to do whatever they want from this point. They have already gotten permission to make whatever they want!

I don't think anyone is saying that. We all remember Norsca so we know that 2 LL race packs are certainly on the table. We are saying that Araby is going to have trouble filling out 4 LL slots so we don't think it's likely that the recently announced campaign pack is going to be them.

Araby can be considered "the Race pack in denial".
CA clarified that for now there will be a Campaign Pack next and a Lord Pack, but told that the Norsca model is not out of rule. So I'm sure now: they will come.

takilung31

ben8vtedu said:

I don't think anyone is saying that. We all remember Norsca so we know that 2 LL race packs are certainly on the table. We are saying that Araby is going to have trouble filling out 4 LL slots so we don't think it's likely that the recently announced campaign pack is going to be them.

Personally, I am fine with them adding DoW, Tilea, Sartosa and the rest. Would be a pity indeed if Araby was left out even though the map for them is complete and currently all occupied by Brets which made no sense. Until the days when they've finally added the dream of Bret's Crusade will never come true