Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Bone Giants vs Bretonnia

Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
First of all it's not omg pls nerf thread, but i do think these guys are super broken against Bretonnia, as they can delete cav in seconds with almost no counetrplay.

Sadly Bretonnia has as for now no options to deal with this (If someone found a good working counter - share it!)

Possible solutions:

1. Rework trébuchet maybe, as nobody takes it over their blessed counterpart anyway. More accuracy, maybe a BsvL, remove or reduce splash dmg, reduce range. This would make a regular trébuchet actually good and pickable and would mirror HE counterplay.

2. RHK BvsL not sure if it would help thou, probably not

3. Reduce Accuracy and splash dmg of Bone Giant.

feel free to disscuss and for ze lady!
«1

Comments

  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 127
    I'm ok for an eventual nerf to the splash damage however its accuracy and missile speed could see some buffs if its done well the bone giant will be less effective vs cav and more effective vs big monsters (he is useless vs them actually which is kinda weird).

    But for this patch I think replacing all your elite knights by a lot of knights of the realm might be a key as the TK will have less valuable units to shoot at while Bretonnia still have plenty of anti large.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    I think he is toos trong and easy to use against cav. I support the idea, that he should be better against single models and far less effective against cav.

    Trébuchet rework could be also possibly viable asnd would help Bretonnia not only in this MU.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 59
    edited June 13
    I personally think that he is meant to be effective against cav due to BvL and splash dmg, if the splash dmg is removed or lowered then there would not be many situations to pick him over bowshabti. Moreover single models can dodge easily his arrows so shooting at cav makes more sense.
    For me, he performs as he should.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    edited June 13
    The thing is Bretonnia has almost no counterplay. I don't think this is balanced at all. Clicking on a cav unit and deleting it in few shots from 350+ range is a bit too much. HE have at least some counterplay.

    That is why i proposed the trébuchet rework
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 2,947
    Is it worse than Hammer of witches ir terms of damage?. It is just a question, I haven't had change to play mucho Bret vs TK.

  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Registered Users Posts: 54
    He is meant to kill cavalry...dwarf cannon and organ gun are the same basically...for me there is Maybe a problem in his performance against infantry because he is also very good against infantry units and not only against cav (non ad good obviously but still good) and still being a massive big monster in melee...i think that right now,for the same cost,is better than beastmen Cygor that cost the same and have no other options so Maybe could see a little rework but nothing big.you can counter it the same way you could counter a dwarf organ gun or an empire cannon. Maybe get a dedicated super cheap vanguard deploy light cavalry only to shut him preventing from shoot as you avance with other cavalry...using it much like a warhounds unit.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 59
    He is worse than Cygor at killing infantry
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    edited June 13
    Theres no dif from them with ush bow. 3 x ush bow is far more dangerous than 2 bone giant despite the range difference. I also dont see the reason in any of this, all a sudden bret cant deal with 1 bone giant but good to be hit by 2 cannon batteries or shot by ush bow?

    Not everything is about counter play, I mean vamps get shot all the time. I dont see why a perfectly fine and newly introuduce unit has to be faced with this kind of suggestions about nerfs. Bone giant itself is barely cost effective, they have 5 less ammo than cygor of the same price, without the 25% magic resist and map wide miscast debuff.

    $1600 for a ush bow $1100 kind of damage, apart from the range and survival its pretty hard to justify paying $500 for just those traits. Tombs pretty much done without arkhan already, be thankful we r still seeing players with them in game lol

    Also the word counterplay is being thrown around too much, bone giant r suppose to counter large as per design and clearly stated in the missile power. It would be crazy to see a unit that counter large NOT being able to do their job at that price range. Clearly no one is expecting a $300 spearman to beat a $1700 blood knights. But surely a $1600 bone giant is suppose to shoot anything under or within his price range with ease.

    Maybe use more realms and questing instead of grails and guards.

    With all these recent updates, its time ca consider a rework of blseeed trebs into something that actually help brets. Perhaps being a “blessed” projectile they should be homing like hellcannon and aimed and killing things like bone giant. Obviously with aoe, dmg and anti large properties adjusted accordingly within their price range.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    Dude everything is about counterplay. I didn't stated they need to be nerfed. But some counterplay should be allowed.

    That is way i sugested the Trébuchet rework.

    and Bone Giant deletes cav much faster than ush with bows.

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    edited June 13

    Dude everything is about counterplay. I didn't stated they need to be nerfed. But some counterplay should be allowed.

    That is way i sugested the Trébuchet rework.

    and Bone Giant deletes cav much faster than ush with bows.

    Thats incorrect, given the price difference, they kill cavs way slower than ush bow. Right now they r exactly on oar with each other, ure paying $500 aka 44% price increase for that 40% range. I mesn u can easily test that out urself.

    Not everything is counterplay, if thats the case they might as well remove vamps since they dont have missile lol. And nos uch counter exists.

    I dont know what counterplay ure using prior to this when getting shot by cannon. They will wipe out trebs easy. If ure not using trebs to fight giants uve $1600 funds to be used on something else. Thats ur “counterplay” right there.

    Ure not gonna get counterplay vs luminark, basti cannon, hellcannon, cygors etc either. In which bonegiant should outperform each and single one of them being specifically designed to be anti large
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    edited June 13
    Yeah so cannons are so much more squishy than BG, and you can't dump it down on a unit of halberds like BG. So it is possible to breake through lines with lance formation and get to the cannons and quickly rout them. There is your counter play right there.

    Try it vs BG best of luck.

    And comparing VC to Bretonnia in that regard is not fair, as they have other tools than cav, which is not the case for Bretonnia.

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    How do u even deal with steam tank in the past?
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    edited June 13
    I don't remeber steam tank having that much splash dmg, but let's not get sidetracked. You are making an offtopic here.

    BG clear cav so quickly i would love to hear a suggestion of possible changes to allow Bretonnia for counterplay.

    And if you are so pro i would love to hear possible counterstrategy, that actually worked in a battle :)
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    edited June 13
    No idea where u get that fact from.

    Its clearly been proven and tested ush bow does the same with shorter range and -$500 in which 3 ush will always perform better than 2 bone giant.

    Ush bow been hunting cav since release, bonw giant is nothing new at +$500 price tag.

    Why do u even need a specific counter when brets been getting slammed by hellcannon ror, ush bow and shtload of other stuffs for 2 yrs+. How they magically outperform 2 batteries of 6 cannons all a sudden is the question ppl should be asking here
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    So what? and not gonna argue with you on your terms. I want to change it and not to have deal with point and click to delete a unit in few shots. Stick to the topic.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,165
    There's far too much exaggeration here. A few shots? Like 2-3? Really?

    How many actual direct hits doe sit take to kill a unit of knights of the realm?
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    edited June 13
    Kayosiv said:

    There's far too much exaggeration here. A few shots? Like 2-3? Really?

    How many actual direct hits doe sit take to kill a unit of knights of the realm?

    Roughly 3+ kills per shot, exactly on par with cheaper ush bow albiet longer range. Waywatchers and sisters do dmg differently, higher dmg but spread out among the knights. Cannons generally would kill more depending on the situation and costs even cheaper.

    Anyway extreme exaggeration here, ror hellcannon r much more fun hunting knights lol. All these can easily be tested, hes likely to be roaming around with guardians and getting focused fired.

    We need to look at the other alternatives to see if they r truly overperforming or not, no evidence suggests that atm.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    You are still missing the point. Bret have no counterplay. They can bring knights and watch them die or just take heavy inf build but we all know how good bret inf is on their own.

    Giving Bret some sort of counterplay would be fair, don't you think? Or you gonna still troll around, that no counterplay in a strategy game is needed? :D
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    edited June 13
    Oh right, counter play. Sorry lol i didnt know that doesnt apply to tomb kings. Apparently they r not allowed to counter bret cav.

    Balance wise they r an overpriced ush bow. No data or tests currently suggests otherwise. Id love to see tombs player give a detail reason as to why they would omit ush bow completely in favor for bone giant. None of th emissile power, nor survival or stats indicates they r at godmode.

    Bret have to find their own cure as they do vs hellcannon and other myraids of insane arts from cannons to organ gun, to lazor basti, steam tank
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 162
    edited June 13
    Bretonnia just misses the monster-killing potential that's supposed to be its forte. If that was the case, Bone Giant would just be a high-risk high-reward choice vs bretonnia.

    The most consensual Bret suggestions should really be grouped at some point.

    Again :)

    - One Paladin variant with BvL AP. I think more and more people plainly agree. No one mentioned yet any balance concern about that. Bretonnia on TT were monster-killers much like how Norsca is currently implemented.

    - One more hero slot than other factions

    - The center point of the trebuchet damage should hit like a cannon.

    - RHP with same total hp but 3 models. More maneuverable and healable. Just that will make them offensively better vs single entities as less models means less chances to randomly wander past the target and enter yo-yo mode.

    - Ideally revert all flying charge patterns to TWW1 but set a maximum number of hits a single entity can take per second.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    ^ Pretty much that

    - I do think blessed treb should have something like homing missile to separate them from the generic trebs to signify their "blessed" shots. We got anti large cannons, but have yet to have an anti large catapult. This is a chance to make them into something special. Obviously dmg, aoe width etc to be adjusted.

    - Paladin needs better item selection and abilities. Selection of vows, grail traits, relevant items would be amazing.

    - Hippo knights a bit tricky, normally when u land they r done for, any disengagement ull likely to lose 1/3 of the models easily as they r so spread out and easily surrounded and killed. Some tweaks would be nice considering they r hell expensive.

    - Green knight, expensive as hell this guy, magic dmg is everywhere in game, no place for a super overpriced unit like him
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Registered Users Posts: 2,947
    edited June 13
    Reducing the Royal Hippo Knights models count to 3 is indeed a pretty interesting suggestion to help Bretonnia against Monsters. The current RHK anti-infantry design is not something which Bretonnia really needs for this unit. Plus Pegasus performance is still meh. I wouldn't like to see this unit getting stronger against other cav/infantry units but monstrous infantry and single entity monsters.I'm not asking for the Pegasus bomb meta we had in WH1 :D but maybe reducing a bit more this unit spacing could help.

    On the other hand, making Kholek and friends less crazy could help a lot too.

  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143

    Bretonnia just misses the monster-killing potential that's supposed to be its forte. If that was the case, Bone Giant would just be a high-risk high-reward choice vs bretonnia.

    The most consensual Bret suggestions should really be grouped at some point.

    Again :)

    - One Paladin variant with BvL AP. I think more and more people plainly agree. No one mentioned yet any balance concern about that. Bretonnia on TT were monster-killers much like how Norsca is currently implemented.

    - One more hero slot than other factions

    - The center point of the trebuchet damage should hit like a cannon.

    - RHP with same total hp but 3 models. More maneuverable and healable. Just that will make them offensively better vs single entities as less models means less chances to randomly wander past the target and enter yo-yo mode.

    - Ideally revert all flying charge patterns to TWW1 but set a maximum number of hits a single entity can take per second.

    I strongly support your idea :)

    RHP need changes, they suck big time for their price tag :)

  • random_peasantrandom_peasant Registered Users Posts: 11
    Trebuchet are fundamentally anti infantry and should stay like that, reworking them like cannon wouldn't make sense at all.

    Also, i really feel like the bone giant isn't that good against bretonnia. try to take knights errant against TK: they will occupy bone giants for a very cheap cost since its melee stats are so terrible, and even if there arent bone giants they are also great at dealling with all the fodder infantry TK can field.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 2,157
    edited June 14

    Trebuchet are fundamentally anti infantry and should stay like that, reworking them like cannon wouldn't make sense at all.

    No, the other magical one. Since its a blessed Treb, perhaps it can magically home the projectile. Much like a mini hell cannon due to blessed shots, give it some anti large. Obviously dmg, splash, ap, etc wouldnt be strong, just right for the $900 price tag without going nuts.

    Right now that entire unit is purely redundant, no one ever brings it as its almost 30% more expensive and pretty much does the same job.

    Ive ask for the stats ages ago, when ato is still working here. What he gave was that blessed has less splash area but higher ap. We dont really need that for 30% xtra costs now is it.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,274
    There's no logical chain from "blessed" to "homing missile", none whatsoever. The Hellcannon's shots homing makes sense as they're semi-aware masses of tortured souls, but a bucket of holy water? No dice.

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,600
    Paladins are already super cheap I'm not sure they should get a free ap and BvL buff without a price increase is crazy. As for buffing bretonnian artillery because of a single unit-- what? Since when did we buff a unit because a unit does what it's supposed to do?
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 162
    Seldkam said:

    Paladins are already super cheap I'm not sure they should get a free ap and BvL buff without a price increase is crazy. As for buffing bretonnian artillery because of a single unit-- what? Since when did we buff a unit because a unit does what it's supposed to do?

    sorry if I missed it but I don't think anyone asks that for free :) the discussion now is how much should cost the Virtue of Heroism as purchasable item and how much BvL/ap does it bring.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,600

    Seldkam said:

    Paladins are already super cheap I'm not sure they should get a free ap and BvL buff without a price increase is crazy. As for buffing bretonnian artillery because of a single unit-- what? Since when did we buff a unit because a unit does what it's supposed to do?

    sorry if I missed it but I don't think anyone asks that for free :) the discussion now is how much should cost the Virtue of Heroism as purchasable item and how much BvL/ap does it bring.
    You're right I didn't read that it was a variant! Myfault
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 143
    Yes it is about options, Bretonnia has pretty limited roster, more options are always good, since we struggle with monsters.

    This can not be like that, by the sacred Lady, heed our call!
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.