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To all those asking for more Empire content

adjung#7086adjung#7086 Registered Users Posts: 386
Bretonnia and Dwarf overhauls give me some hope. I could imagine some Empire overhauls if TEB comes, ideally (from my point at least) in the form of the new "campaign pack" (which would explain why it is not called "race pack" (as TK), as Reikland and Tilea/Estalia/Border Princes still are the same race, just different factions. Neither would I consider DoW a new "race", even if it means a roster made up of units from different races). For the most part, however, TWW2 felt like this to me so far:








Forward onto Slaughter.

Comments

  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,664
    'Race' has a particular meaning in TWW terms, meaning a grouping that shares an army list and which is able to confederate, more or less. Bretonnia is therefore considered a different 'race' to the Empire, even if they're both human. If the Southern Realms got their own list, they would definitely be a different 'race'.
  • Pr4vda#6038Pr4vda#6038 Registered Users Posts: 2,746
    There has been an overhaul for the Dwarfs, but it could have been far better :

    No skill trees update for LLs, lords and heroes
    No "immortality" skill
    No "after battles" update
    No tech tree update
    No rites
    No unique garrisons for Karak Kadrin (and some other factions, who could have deserve it like Har Ganeth, Avelorn, etc.)
    Not a real rework on Grudges (some tweaks, that's true, but it could have also been better).

    So, for me, it's a good point, but it clearly shows that a true balance is not CA main's job here. They prefer to have new races better with each one coming (either in terms of content or gameplay), rather than upgrading the formers.

    I'm a bit concerned when will have WH3 races, compared to WH1 races ... all those shiny gameplay elements, funny skill trees, interesting unique and buildings, the former races will look very ... empty ?
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • adjung#7086adjung#7086 Registered Users Posts: 386
    Draxynnic said:

    'Race' has a particular meaning in TWW terms, meaning a grouping that shares an army list and which is able to confederate, more or less. Bretonnia is therefore considered a different 'race' to the Empire, even if they're both human. If the Southern Realms got their own list, they would definitely be a different 'race'.

    Not necessarily: It could also mean an expanded roster as for Arkhan (who is listed in the TK race in the select screen) or Alarielle (same but with HE).


    Forward onto Slaughter.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,664
    adjung said:

    Draxynnic said:

    'Race' has a particular meaning in TWW terms, meaning a grouping that shares an army list and which is able to confederate, more or less. Bretonnia is therefore considered a different 'race' to the Empire, even if they're both human. If the Southern Realms got their own list, they would definitely be a different 'race'.

    Not necessarily: It could also mean an expanded roster as for Arkhan (who is listed in the TK race in the select screen) or Alarielle (same but with HE).
    Not impossible, I guess, but unlikely. A Southern Realms list is likely to be based on the Dogs of War list (which is largely representative of the militaries of Tilea and Estalia, whether they are mercenaries or standing armies). That difference is a lot deeper than just a handful of added units, especially since there are a lot of Empire units that the Southern Realms really SHOULDN'T have access to.

    Additionally, diplomatically speaking the Southern Realms are already treated as a different race. They just continue to use the Empire units as a placeholder.
  • Thursdaythe12thThursdaythe12th Registered Users Posts: 145
    Mods can fix a lot of the issues with the old races to be honest. Zarkis and Cataph in particular have done some very impressive work.

    I'd prefer CA to do things that modders can't do, like expanding the map and inventing new races with new models/animations.
  • TheGuardianOfMetal#3661TheGuardianOfMetal#3661 Registered Users Posts: 14,704
    edited June 2018

    Mods can fix a lot of the issues with the old races to be honest. Zarkis and Cataph in particular have done some very impressive work.

    I'd prefer CA to do things that modders can't do, like expanding the map and inventing new races with new models/animations.

    Mods being around is not an excuse for laziness, otherwise CA could just utterly ignore everything from game 1... Ungrim moved? Mods did that. Forging? Mods did that.30 years anniversary ROR? Mods did that!

    the Empire deserves it's spotlight... and anyone who disagrees goes into the Dammaz Kron...


    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Player#902441Player#902441 Registered Users Posts: 7,756
    It wouldn't be difficult to make The Empire a good deal more fun to play.

    Revamp their technology tree so it's less cumbersome and slow, Red Duke-style reskins of the Elector Counts with a few unique abilities so you have some motivation to save them/confederate rather than just wipe them out/let them be wiped out and colonise the ruins, some kind of mechanic to show the relationship between the Emperor and the Elector Counts.

    Mods have done it, wouldn't be too difficult for CA, I think.
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    I still prefer their core focus on the new races, because right now the Skaven and Lizardmen have less content then the Empire. Keep in mind that not everything is interested in the old world.

    For game 3 they should make sure that all factions are virtually the same.
  • TheGuardianOfMetal#3661TheGuardianOfMetal#3661 Registered Users Posts: 14,704
    edited June 2018

    I still prefer their core focus on the new races, because right now the Skaven and Lizardmen have less content then the Empire. Keep in mind that not everything is interested in the old world.

    For game 3 they should make sure that all factions are virtually the same.

    They also didn't have their DLC yet... so that's not a particulary good argument.

    Also, unlike hte Empire, they have 2 different starting positions (3 for Skaven)....
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • HisShadowBG#8316HisShadowBG#8316 Registered Users Posts: 3,456

    I still prefer their core focus on the new races, because right now the Skaven and Lizardmen have less content then the Empire. Keep in mind that not everything is interested in the old world.

    For game 3 they should make sure that all factions are virtually the same.

    They also didn't have their DLC yet... so that's not a particulary good argument.

    Also, unlike hte Empire, they have 2 different starting positions (3 for Skaven)....
    Too many different start positions isn't a good thing either imo

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • Beast_of_Guanyin#8747Beast_of_Guanyin#8747 Registered Users Posts: 44,846
    Tomb Kings was a campaign pack. The difference is a race pack has 2 LL's a campaign pack 4.

    In the context of this game a race is a collection of factions grouped together by their shared rosters and mechanics. So for example Wood Elves, Dark Elves and High Elves are 3 separate races even though all are obviously Elves.

    Old stuff wasn't unfinished either, it was, and is finished. It's simply not as good as the newer stuff.

    We'll need to wait till the next DLC to see if the Dwarves were the start of a trend, or a one off. I think they're the start of a trend. Can't say when they'll get it as they're competing with Orcs for most needy, and there's no logical order to put the DLC / updates in.
    I am The Beast of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • InsorInsor Registered Users Posts: 25
    The problem is, SEGA can't monetize an Empire re-work. Do you really expect them to fix this game for free?
    Just buy more DLC and shut yer traps.
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,400
    Insor said:

    The problem is, SEGA can't monetize an Empire re-work. Do you really expect them to fix this game for free?
    Just buy more DLC and shut yer traps.

    Well, I would bet that a lot of people would buy a 2nd empire DLC, but I doubt we will ever see it's color...
  • Freden#5415Freden#5415 Registered Users Posts: 761
    edited June 2018
    So basically i see it as:

    The Empires northern electors fight Chaos and Norscans, TWW3 is about Chaos, If an overhaul will come it will be in TWW3 together with a DLC pack with some new units and stuff to finance the overhaul. Knights Panthers & Ulric units comes to mind.

    Not TWW2, it does not make sense to me. Too much new world stuff still needs doing. Malus, The Unclean, Teheuthan, Skaven & LM RoR pack and the list goes on.



    Tomb Kings was a campaign pack. The difference is a race pack has 2 LL's a campaign pack 4.

    In the context of this game a race is a collection of factions grouped together by their shared rosters and mechanics. So for example Wood Elves, Dark Elves and High Elves are 3 separate races even though all are obviously Elves.

    Old stuff wasn't unfinished either, it was, and is finished. It's simply not as good as the newer stuff.

    We'll need to wait till the next DLC to see if the Dwarves were the start of a trend, or a one off. I think they're the start of a trend. Can't say when they'll get it as they're competing with Orcs for most needy, and there's no logical order to put the DLC / updates in.

    Hasn't CA_Grace said over and over again that there is no such thing as a race pack? there are campaign packs, and there are lord packs.
    Post edited by Freden#5415 on
  • Sultschiem#8734Sultschiem#8734 Registered Users Posts: 3,719
    Insor said:

    The problem is, SEGA can't monetize an Empire re-work. Do you really expect them to fix this game for free?
    Just buy more DLC and shut yer traps.

    Ahem....

    increasing the replayability and the quality of the races of previous games, will encourage players who bought the later games first and not the previous ones, to buy those too and brings back players for the new stuff so they buy more stuff.
  • InsorInsor Registered Users Posts: 25

    Insor said:

    The problem is, SEGA can't monetize an Empire re-work. Do you really expect them to fix this game for free?
    Just buy more DLC and shut yer traps.

    Ahem....

    increasing the replayability and the quality of the races of previous games, will encourage players who bought the later games first and not the previous ones, to buy those too and brings back players for the new stuff so they buy more stuff.
    How much is SEGA paying you?
  • ZerglesZergles Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    Lots of internal salt level increases detected ITT.

    Someone's gonna blow a gasket if the Empire isn't made into the best, most OP faction...and soon.
  • Sultschiem#8734Sultschiem#8734 Registered Users Posts: 3,719
    edited June 2018
    Insor said:

    Insor said:

    The problem is, SEGA can't monetize an Empire re-work. Do you really expect them to fix this game for free?
    Just buy more DLC and shut yer traps.

    Ahem....

    increasing the replayability and the quality of the races of previous games, will encourage players who bought the later games first and not the previous ones, to buy those too and brings back players for the new stuff so they buy more stuff.
    How much is SEGA paying you?
    I work in games too ^^

    When we released a game on a new plattform, the rate at which the players bought a new content purchase was much higher than on the old plattform, meaning that the closer the content-option is there to the moment of "i want more", the bigger the chances that its getting bought.

    In case of game 2 and 3, thats the previous games as well and all of their dlc.

    So if a faction of a content they do not own yet that interests them is bad compared to the new ones, the interest is much lower than if it is competitive or gets updates. Just like there is an incentive for game 1 players to buy game 2 because their factions get new updates as well such as the dwarves now and bretonnia with the tomb king update.

    As well as ofc. getting players who are mainly only interested in said faction to get back into the game and then maybe buy 1 or 2 more dlc ^^

    In case of Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos, I guess they will get more major update stuff in game 3, since it will feature more chaos stuff.... also......well, the issue with the Beastmen stuff that is missing in terms of units is that they cannot be recycled....

    If daemons of chaos are in, using the bloodcrusher and making them skullcrushers for woc is easy...but the ghorgon and the jabber both cannot be used anywhere else, just like the cygor.

    Or it could also just be that there aren`t that many people interested in playing Beastmen to begin with, not sure. I only played their mini-campaign which I liked and then Morghur.

    OR that already enough % of people are buying it nonetheless.
  • Mogwai_Man#4978Mogwai_Man#4978 Registered Users Posts: 6,406
    The old factions arent ever going to match the new content. CA will improve the original factions using existing resources but they'll always be behind.
  • Razmirth#5806Razmirth#5806 Registered Users Posts: 2,286
    I think that they will eventually change empire, greenskins etc a bit. Maybe not s ton of more units, but balance in general. Make some new start positions and what not.

    Something was said to me recently (I think it was @Itharus ) who said to remember that empire isn’t supposed to really be OP or further along than other races in a particular area. They are the middle ground faction. They do everything fairly decently, whether it be armour saves, weapon strength, toughness, war machines, list goes on. But they will not beat a dwarf army at shooting, or maybe even an elf army either at it. Which I agreed with.

    I also agreed that the main thing empire needs is some new starting positions. I personally think they may need some balance fixes and perhaps some legendary lord skill fixes (maybe some research....thier research tree is extremely basic) but that’s mostly it.
  • Nihil515Nihil515 Registered Users Posts: 222
    Sega Can Monetize if they add a Combined DLC:

    buying it would mean:
    1. Add Middenhein with some units (knights of the white wolf, ulfric priest, teutonic guard)
    2. Add Gorgorn, and Jabberslythe and one legendary lord like Taurox.
    3. Add Ariel, and Drycha. And some missing units, like different weapons variant units.
    4. Add Mousillon, with the Red DuKe, with undead units with bretonian cloths, and add a special units of knights of the black grial.


    It could be named: Forgotten heroes of the Old World.
    And it could incentivate to buy with other dlc together.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,664
    edited June 2018
    Razmirth said:

    I think that they will eventually change empire, greenskins etc a bit. Maybe not s ton of more units, but balance in general. Make some new start positions and what not.

    Something was said to me recently (I think it was @Itharus ) who said to remember that empire isn’t supposed to really be OP or further along than other races in a particular area. They are the middle ground faction. They do everything fairly decently, whether it be armour saves, weapon strength, toughness, war machines, list goes on. But they will not beat a dwarf army at shooting, or maybe even an elf army either at it. Which I agreed with.

    I also agreed that the main thing empire needs is some new starting positions. I personally think they may need some balance fixes and perhaps some legendary lord skill fixes (maybe some research....thier research tree is extremely basic) but that’s mostly it.

    Outshooting a high or dark elf army, through having better artillery, would be fitting. Those two sets of elves are also fairly middle-ground factions.

    Being middle ground also doesn't mean that a faction can't have strengths and weaknesses, they're just less exaggerated than more specialised factions. Empire, for instance, has good artillery but few flyers. High Elves have the opposite.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    This is not just about the empire. There is currently not will to sunk money in done content, even when it cracks at the seams. One one hand it makes sense, since the aim is to bring out a large and comprehensive game, the largest they ever did. On the other hand this could be a catastrophe and end up a very uneven product.
    Just imagine what will happen once they game 3 faction start rolling out. Will they keep a single dev to fix all the remaining stuff in the meantime?

    I mean the Ghorgon/Middenland requests are funny/logical/annoying take your side, but the truth is they don't even pick low hanging fruits, about stuff that is broken/outdated. Bugged quests? Outdated skills? Outdated scripts?

  • Mogwai_Man#4978Mogwai_Man#4978 Registered Users Posts: 6,406
    The Empire suffers from being one of the guinea pig factions. Maybe someday we'll get a playable Middenland and an interesting campaign mechanic.
  • IxalmarisIxalmaris Registered Users Posts: 851

    The Empire suffers from being one of the guinea pig factions. Maybe someday we'll get a playable Middenland and an interesting campaign mechanic.

    Dont count on it. CA tries to milk its customers for as much as possible with as little work as possible. And as they cant sell an Empire rework they wont spend effort on it.

    The best you can hope for is a overpriced Middenland campaign pack with minimal changes to the Empire like adding Immortality and other small stuff.
  • LangolierLangolier Registered Users Posts: 374
    Can I have Marius please?
    "Furthermore i believe that Carthage must be destroyed" - Cato the Elder
    "Furthermore I also believe that Chaos Dwarfs should have really big hats" - Langolier the middle aged
  • AmericanViking22AmericanViking22 Registered Users Posts: 151
    adjung said:

    (which would explain why it is not called "race pack" (as TK),

    One problem there, Tomb Kings WAS a campaign pack. The name comes from TWW1 where we had Campaign packs like Beastmen and Wood Elves which came with a mini campaign along with the race packs Chaos and Norsca, which didn't. In TWW2, due to player feedback, they did away with the mini campaigns in favor of addition LLs (and possibly units) but kept calling them campaign packs. They seem to have done away with race packs entirely, with Grace saying there are no race packs for TWW2.

  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    adjung said:

    (which would explain why it is not called "race pack" (as TK),

    One problem there, Tomb Kings WAS a campaign pack. The name comes from TWW1 where we had Campaign packs like Beastmen and Wood Elves which came with a mini campaign along with the race packs Chaos and Norsca, which didn't. In TWW2, due to player feedback, they did away with the mini campaigns in favor of addition LLs (and possibly units) but kept calling them campaign packs. They seem to have done away with race packs entirely, with Grace saying there are no race packs for TWW2.

    It was cleared up that what Grace was saying was that there are no race packs for WH2 currently released. She was simply listing off the types of DLCs that had already come for WH2.
  • AmericanViking22AmericanViking22 Registered Users Posts: 151
    ben8vtedu said:

    adjung said:

    (which would explain why it is not called "race pack" (as TK),

    One problem there, Tomb Kings WAS a campaign pack. The name comes from TWW1 where we had Campaign packs like Beastmen and Wood Elves which came with a mini campaign along with the race packs Chaos and Norsca, which didn't. In TWW2, due to player feedback, they did away with the mini campaigns in favor of addition LLs (and possibly units) but kept calling them campaign packs. They seem to have done away with race packs entirely, with Grace saying there are no race packs for TWW2.

    It was cleared up that what Grace was saying was that there are no race packs for WH2 currently released. She was simply listing off the types of DLCs that had already come for WH2.
    Ah, I didn't see that, good to know. Still, my point stands that a 'Campaign Pack' is going to be a new race and likely has nothing to do with revamping old races, as OP seems to hope.
  • ZercaZerca Registered Users Posts: 89
    Well, I think, we should also take another Warhammer III into our consideration. When even more races appear, maybe completely new mechanics and gameplay elements. again then the boosted empire might look old again. Maybe, in the most euphemistic perspective, they just wait until they added enough content so they only need to update the Empire one time.

    about monetizing:
    They claimed that they might release DLC for the Old game after the sequel, so the DLC might be a Warhammer I DLC, but with Mortal Empires you get to use it aswell. So, there might be new Legendary Lords. A secound "Grim and the Grave"-like DLC for the first game, would give also new units for Mortal Empires.

    Also after the release of Warhammer 3 I could imagine, that some people might play the old races, but they wouldn't buy a full price game again. So in the end new players might buy the "Empire faction pack" for the Mortal Empires 2.0 in Warhammer 3. For this they might add new textures and new mechanics to this faction. Owners of Warhammer I could profit fromt it aswell, by releasing this update for the owners of the first game for free. Still they might earn a bit money from the revamped faction.

    actually, I don't like that CA used numbers in the Names of the games. If Total Warhammer 2 just would be called " Warhammer: The Great Vortex", the first game wouldn't look that "old". The first game has slightly less good graphics, but the mechanics are more or less the same with different factions. The first game is just different to the secound not worse or technically antiqued. CA should encourage players, to play the older game aswell.

    If CA is smart, the Mortal Empires campagne in Warhammer 3 is free accessable for every owner of any game, but they are just limited to the factions they own. Locking the other factions behind paywalls, might reduce the "inhibition threshold" to intially buy the game. But anyone who likes to spend more into the game , could buy older or newer factions aswell. This would imply , that they make every faction as cool and balanced as possible, so the players want to buy them. So in the end, everyone is profiting. Empire is great again, CA earns money and Total War Warhammer is the most diverse total war game ever created by CA.

    And no I'm not working for CA. :D
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