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Humans & The Winds of Magic - Lore Question

VegetableVegetable Registered Users Posts: 17
So from what I've read, humans can't wield more than one lore of magic. It's just not going to happen. But the thing I've always wondered is, why? It seems that whenever a human tries, it ends up going horribly wrong some way or another, but every explanation I've seen as to why it goes wrong is vague.

Are humans inherently incapable of wielding multiple lores of magic? Are their short lives simply insufficient to learn to master more than one lore at a time? Does interacting with several winds cause some sort of magic overload that causes the magic to go out of control and blow everything to %@&# or causes the wizard to be overcome by chaos, horribly mutating them into a chaos spawn and/or causing them to explode? What's the deal here?
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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Short answer: Because they don't have the sensitivity to wield multiple winds without clumsily crushing them together and forming Dark Magic. Dark Magic is inherently corrupting if it doesn't outright explode in your face, so any human who tries tends to inevitably go insane. (Humans believe that Druchii are resistant to the effects of Dark Magic. They probably are somewhat, but some of the symptoms of Dark Magic corruption in humans are natural Druchii personality traits, so it's hard to say if they're avoiding the effects entirely or if they just don't notice.)

    The flipside is that humans who do focus in a specific wind seem to grow more attuned to that wind than most elves, allowing them to grow powerful more quickly. Elves typically take timespans longer than a human lifetime to master their studies.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,690
    Humans in the world of Warhammer Fantasy were built as the sort of jack of all trades race. They have a mastery of magic but are not born to it. Like how they have a mastery of technology and craft but aren't as focused in on the craft as a Dwarf.

    I assume when you wonder why Humans are bad at magic you're specifically wondering why Elves are better at it. Because I'm just going to point out that no race outside the Elves, Slann, and Chaos itself, can master the winds.

    Slann were biologically engineered by the Old Ones to be demigods among their people. Given a mastery over more than just the simple winds, theirs is the power to shatter continents with their minds. When they can be bothered to wake up.

    Elves were built by the Old Ones as a sort of fire with fire mechanism. In order to beat the winds of chaos, they needed beings born to those same winds. Unlike humans, all Elves are mages in some capacity. It's in their very blood. Their crafts, Ulthuan itself, all buoyed by the winds of magic. Magic is as natural as breathing. They don't need to try.

    And when it comes to Chaos its important to understand that Chaos is magic. Or more specifically all magic is a tool of Chaos. Tzeentch himself is the god of magic, and the winds of magic stem directly from the influence of Chaos upon the world. So when a Chaos sorceror taps into the winds, thats not the trained and filtered control exhibited by the college of mages. It's not the artistic deciphering that is high magic. Or the weapon that is dark magic. It's just raw magic. They can push that as far their body will allow, though pushed too far and good old mutation will be sure to pay you a visit. A blessing of Tzeentch you could call it.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Registered Users Posts: 1,306
    edited July 2018
    Well, humans can master more than one wind but this tend to make random and dangerous effects (dark magic).
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,883
    Why not both reasons? but 'Humans are Average' is a common trope in Warhammer Setting, a being like Nagash is a big exception, and Nagash is now more like a Greater Daemon than a Human.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Qhaysh

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreAverage
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901

    And when it comes to Chaos its important to understand that Chaos is magic. Or more specifically all magic is a tool of Chaos. Tzeentch himself is the god of magic, and the winds of magic stem directly from the influence of Chaos upon the world. So when a Chaos sorceror taps into the winds, thats not the trained and filtered control exhibited by the college of mages. It's not the artistic deciphering that is high magic. Or the weapon that is dark magic. It's just raw magic. They can push that as far their body will allow, though pushed too far and good old mutation will be sure to pay you a visit. A blessing of Tzeentch you could call it.

    I'd go with the first definition rather than the second one: Demons and the Chaos gods are essentially packets of sapient magic. All magic is from the Realm of Chaos, but not all magic is controlled by the Chaos Gods (no, not even Tzeentch), any more than the animals who live in the sea control the ocean. The wind of Hysh, in particular, represents and empowers concepts that are diametrically opposed to Chaos, even though it does not appear to be sentient.

    The eight winds and Dark Magic are actually closer to being 'raw magic' than the Chaos lores. The use of the Chaos lores by mortals comes about through the god in question, or its demonic servants, granting them a portion of their own power in lieu of the regular Winds of Magic. It's still up to the Chaos Sorcerer to actually control that power, though - the most dangerous Chaos Sorcerers are those who do have a comparable degree of control to College Magisters, either because they are ex-Magisters who defected, or because they were taught by another Sorcerer or by the Chaos God and/or its demons directly.

    (It's worth noting that Dark Magic comes in many varieties. That used by the Dark Elves is its purest form, but many of the other racial lores among the more destructive races also involve Dark Magic at some level. Not Waaagh! magic, though. That's speshul.)
  • MakoTheMakoMakoTheMako Registered Users Posts: 1,246
    Also the first Supreme Patriarch was able to recognize all of the winds of magic, able to discern them and their flows, but knew not to try to control more than one.

    die about it

  • TalosXTalosX Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 151
    edited July 2018
    Draxynnic explained it pretty well. Human's simply lack the mystical precision to call on more then one Wind, and weave it together (aka High Magic). It should be noted, that it takes High Elves several human lifetimes to master High Magic. Teclis noted humans aren't incapable of High Magic, but that they simply don't have the life spans to survive the long training requirements. So he instead focused the human's training on mastering a single Wind. As Draxynnic mentioned, Teclis observed that humans who focused on a single Wind, became so attuned to that Wind, that their power could exceed the High Elves. It was one of the reasons Teclis came to believe humans would eventually surpass the elves.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901

    Also the first Supreme Patriarch was able to recognize all of the winds of magic, able to discern them and their flows, but knew not to try to control more than one.

    From the Liber Chaotica, he was actually even more cautious than that - he learned as much as he could about magic purely from observation, but never tried to do anything with it until Teclis taught him how to do so safely. It was Teclis who decided that he was best suited to Light Magic.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,883

    Humans in the world of Warhammer Fantasy were built as the sort of jack of all trades race. They have a mastery of magic but are not born to it. Like how they have a mastery of technology and craft but aren't as focused in on the craft as a Dwarf.

    I assume when you wonder why Humans are bad at magic you're specifically wondering why Elves are better at it. Because I'm just going to point out that no race outside the Elves, Slann, and Chaos itself, can master the winds.

    Slann were biologically engineered by the Old Ones to be demigods among their people. Given a mastery over more than just the simple winds, theirs is the power to shatter continents with their minds. When they can be bothered to wake up.

    Elves were built by the Old Ones as a sort of fire with fire mechanism. In order to beat the winds of chaos, they needed beings born to those same winds. Unlike humans, all Elves are mages in some capacity. It's in their very blood. Their crafts, Ulthuan itself, all buoyed by the winds of magic. Magic is as natural as breathing. They don't need to try.

    And when it comes to Chaos its important to understand that Chaos is magic. Or more specifically all magic is a tool of Chaos. Tzeentch himself is the god of magic, and the winds of magic stem directly from the influence of Chaos upon the world. So when a Chaos sorceror taps into the winds, that's not the trained and filtered control exhibited by the college of mages. It's not the artistic deciphering that is high magic. Or the weapon that is dark magic. It's just raw magic. They can push that as far their body will allow, though pushed too far and good old mutation will be sure to pay you a visit. A blessing of Tzeentch you could call it.

    Well "Mastery of Magic" is a Relative Term, the Spells that Human Wizards can cast are but a Minor Spells in comparison to High Magic/True Magic/Qhaysh, the Lizardmen and Elves tend to totally outclass Humans lore-wise, but it to be expected from a such Ancient and Powerful Races. Anyway it's true that "Magic" is in fact Chaos Energies, Warhammer is a Grimdark Setting and so Witch Hunters have a point. In fact in the First Chaos Incursion, the "Winds of Magic" who Flow the World from the Realm of Chaos was so great that even Slann start to get overwhelmed by them, while Daemons, who were born from that Unnatural Stuff was Invigorated by the "Winds of Magic".

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Catastrophe

    http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Magic
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,690
    I've seen Volans brought up here multiple times and I kinda think using him is a disservice to how magic works for most humans. Teclis did recognize that humnaity had an aptitude to learn and adapt magnitudes better then Elves, giving them extreme capabilities in singular winds. But that is not why the First Patriarch was named. Rather Volans was the only human Teclis had ever met who was capable of seeing each of the winds of magic at once. Watching the flow as it were. Qyash, or something like that. And Volans was so fond of this skill he choose not to weave it into spells that often. Opting instead to study the winds as literally no other human ever could. This man was a unique exception.

    So in regards to your average human wizard, what they do is the study and control of a single magic. Not mastery over the winds. So far every human who ventured into that realm ends up on the other end of the Chaos Wastes. Like Egrimm.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Volans had a unique ability (among humans) to perceive Qhaysh, but he never attempted to weave it himself - he could see that doing so was beyond his ability.

    Egrimm, from what I understand of his story, made a bargain with Tzeentch while still in his apprenticeship. He didn't go off the deep end because he was attempting to gain mastery over multiple winds (although that might have happened later) - he was corrupted pretty much from the start.

    I think there is a limited amount of experimentation a human can do before the damage to their psyche becomes irreparable, but ultimately, humans who don't restrict themselves to a single Wind (and who aren't killed as a result) usually end up becoming a Chaos Sorcerer, a Necromancer, or a Wraith.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,690
    Or a chaos sorceror who is revived as a necromancer until hes killed again and enslaved as a wraith.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    Tayvar said:

    Why not both reasons? but 'Humans are Average' is a common trope in Warhammer Setting, a being like Nagash is a big exception, and Nagash is now more like a Greater Daemon than a Human.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Qhaysh

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreAverage

    Undead in general seem to be better with magic, but more concentrated on few specific lores.


    @Draxynnic
    I think there is a limited amount of experimentation a human can do before the damage to their psyche becomes irreparable, but ultimately, humans who don't restrict themselves to a single Wind (and who aren't killed as a result) usually end up becoming a Chaos Sorcerer, a Necromancer, or a Wraith.

    Wraiths? Wonder why they can't cast anything in that case.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Wargol5Wargol5 Registered Users Posts: 1,306
    Draxynnic said:

    Volans had a unique ability (among humans) to perceive Qhaysh, but he never attempted to weave it himself - he could see that doing so was beyond his ability.

    Egrimm, from what I understand of his story, made a bargain with Tzeentch while still in his apprenticeship. He didn't go off the deep end because he was attempting to gain mastery over multiple winds (although that might have happened later) - he was corrupted pretty much from the start.

    I think there is a limited amount of experimentation a human can do before the damage to their psyche becomes irreparable, but ultimately, humans who don't restrict themselves to a single Wind (and who aren't killed as a result) usually end up becoming a Chaos Sorcerer, a Necromancer, or a Wraith.

    Or a witch, or a warlock, or a hedge wizard. But this old stuff is old.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,883
    edited July 2018

    Tayvar said:

    Why not both reasons? but 'Humans are Average' is a common trope in Warhammer Setting, a being like Nagash is a big exception, and Nagash is now more like a Greater Daemon than a Human.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Qhaysh

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreAverage

    Undead in general seem to be better with magic, but more concentrated on few specific lores.
    Better than who? there is only one Undead in the Top Tier magic users of Warhammer Setting, and that is Nagash. Mannfred is 'small name, big ego' type of character, and even the Vampires from the Necrarch Bloodline don't seems to have achieved Top Tier magic feats, even though they are the Vampire Bloodline that focus the most on magic. Undead Necromancers clearly tend to be better than Human Necromancers, but it's mostly Lizardmen, Elves and Lords of Change who tend to occupy the Top Tier magic users spots. That said, if Archaon and Mannfred didn't ruined the Warhammer World in the End Times, maybe some Vampires would succeed getting up to the Top Tier magic users list, mostly by experience and by the fact that Elves in Warhammer don't tend to be Immortal, even though Elves can live for thousands of years, and Dark Elves like to extend their Lifespan on top of that, but Teclis is not a Dark Elf, so at the very least other Top Tier magic users could had potentially outlived Teclis.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi
    Post edited by Tayvar on
  • ArdralisArdralis Registered Users Posts: 198
    In TT humans could use more than 1 lore but required a magic item to do it. In 4th/5th ed anyway..later editions maybe not.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901

    Tayvar said:

    Why not both reasons? but 'Humans are Average' is a common trope in Warhammer Setting, a being like Nagash is a big exception, and Nagash is now more like a Greater Daemon than a Human.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Qhaysh

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreAverage

    Undead in general seem to be better with magic, but more concentrated on few specific lores.
    Well, most undead spellcasters were human to begin with, just with longer (un-)lives than living humans.
    @Draxynnic
    I think there is a limited amount of experimentation a human can do before the damage to their psyche becomes irreparable, but ultimately, humans who don't restrict themselves to a single Wind (and who aren't killed as a result) usually end up becoming a Chaos Sorcerer, a Necromancer, or a Wraith.

    Wraiths? Wonder why they can't cast anything in that case.
    Not sure that's ever been explained, but it's been in the fluff since 4E that wraiths and banshees (although possibly not hexwraiths?) were spellcasters that were corrupted by Dark Magic in life. Something in the transformation evidently drains their spellcasting ability.
    Wargol5 said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Volans had a unique ability (among humans) to perceive Qhaysh, but he never attempted to weave it himself - he could see that doing so was beyond his ability.

    Egrimm, from what I understand of his story, made a bargain with Tzeentch while still in his apprenticeship. He didn't go off the deep end because he was attempting to gain mastery over multiple winds (although that might have happened later) - he was corrupted pretty much from the start.

    I think there is a limited amount of experimentation a human can do before the damage to their psyche becomes irreparable, but ultimately, humans who don't restrict themselves to a single Wind (and who aren't killed as a result) usually end up becoming a Chaos Sorcerer, a Necromancer, or a Wraith.

    Or a witch, or a warlock, or a hedge wizard. But this old stuff is old.
    Technically speaking, witches and warlocks are already on the path to Chaos, while a hedge wizard is still uncorrupted (or not so corrupted that they cannot recover), if I recall correctly. Hedge wizards generally don't remain hedge wizards for long if they start deliberately trying to mix winds. (They might get away with casting spells of different winds individually, but it's risky - the reason that Magisters focus on a single wind is that it minimises the risk of accidentally mixing winds through making it harder and harder for a Magister to draw on any wind but the one they've focused on.)
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,883
    Ardralis said:

    In TT humans could use more than 1 lore but required a magic item to do it. In 4th/5th ed anyway..later editions maybe not.

    Well those Editions was much less Grimdark, the changes for Bretonnia are good example for that.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    Draxynnic said:


    Well, most undead spellcasters were human to begin with, just with longer (un-)lives than living humans.

    Not sure that's ever been explained, but it's been in the fluff since 4E that wraiths and banshees (although possibly not hexwraiths?) were spellcasters that were corrupted by Dark Magic in life. Something in the transformation evidently drains their spellcasting ability.

    Indeed.

    Thanks for info. I just always wondered, why there is no spellcasters among Wight Kings and Wraiths/Banshees, which resurrected on their own/not binded to someone else.
    Tayvar said:


    Better than who? there is only one Undead in the Top Tier magic users of Warhammer Setting, and that is Nagash. Mannfred is 'small name, big ego' type of character, and even the Vampires from the Necrarch Bloodline don't seems to have achieved Top Tier magic feats, even though they are the Vampire Bloodline that focus the most on magic. Undead Necromancers clearly tend to be better than Human Necromancers, but it's mostly Lizardmen, Elves and Lords of Change who tend to occupy the Top Tier magic users spots. That said, if Archaon and Mannfred didn't ruined the Warhammer World in the End Times, maybe some Vampires would succeed getting up to the Top Tier magic users list, mostly by experience and by the fact that Elves in Warhammer don't tend to be Immortal, even though Elves can live for thousands of years, and Dark Elves like to extend their Lifespan on top of that, but Teclis is not a Dark Elf, so at the very least other Top Tier magic users could had potentially outlived Teclis.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Morathi

    Compared to their previous form - humans.
    I thought we discuss access to Lores, not who is Top Tier or what type of charecter is.
    Mannfred is Loremaster of 2 Lores, which is solid. Most Necromancer/Vampire Lords have solid level and have access to few lores, plus could expand their magic access with Forbidden Lore ability.
    Plus, Lore of Vampires is quite strong on its own. Don't know, if that strong as High magic in plot, but still seems quite a bit strong, even though more specific.

    But, if we speak about factions, which have overall stronger access to magic (amount of Lores and strength of some Lores or some magic stuff that they were able to do at least according to the plot) - yeah, Lizadmen, Elves (High/Dark, but not sure about Wood) and Chaos probably among Top-tier.
    Meanwhile, as far as I remember there were some other Lords from other races, which have access to few lores of magic, as far as I remember.

    As for "could Necromancers/Vampires become as strong as other Top-Tier one"...well, it depends if they would survive and keep their sanity/won't degrade.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,690
    While undead spellcasters can indeed call upon a lore. Lore of death being the ironic lore of choice for some reason. The lore that vampires use and the lore that nehekarans use are NOT born from the same place that literally every other wind of magic is. When it comes to necromantic arts specifically, those are Nagashs baby. Dude is the grandfather of all magic of undeath, and it's one of many reasons why the Chaos gods legitimately were **** off that Nagash even existed. Guy was a walking **** you to everything Chaos stood for and out right denied their powers over the soul.

    Also to answer the above guys question about welf magic, yes they are still Elves. Still live and breathe magic. In fact unique among the Elven factions they didn't differentiate between the moral highs and lows of magic. Believing that both represent an aspect of who they are. Thus they commonly used not just high magic, but dark magic as well. And literally any other lore they choose to. Hell their wardancers were so good at shadow magic they weaved it into their **** movements. The dances are shadow magic, and the hero version of a wardancer is called a shadowdancer.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    edited July 2018
    Plotwise, the Lore of Vampires, and Nagash's necromancy (which the Lore of Vampires developed from), was a specialised form of Dark Magic, with the power to be about as dangerous as anything the Dark Elves could do. Not every practitioner reaches that level, but Vampires/Necromancers on the whole probably are top-tier, albeit without the versatility of Elves, Slann, and Chaos Sorcerers. Even if they are also insane. Chaos Sorcerers aren't exactly known for their firm grip on sanity either, after all.

    (The skaven could also make an argument for being top-tier, when it doesn't blow up in their faces, anyway.)

    Also to answer the above guys question about welf magic, yes they are still Elves. Still live and breathe magic. In fact unique among the Elven factions they didn't differentiate between the moral highs and lows of magic. Believing that both represent an aspect of who they are. Thus they commonly used not just high magic, but dark magic as well. And literally any other lore they choose to. Hell their wardancers were so good at shadow magic they weaved it into their **** movements. The dances are shadow magic, and the hero version of a wardancer is called a shadowdancer.

    Ehhh. They have both branches of Elven magic - in the 8E reimagining, anyway - but it's fairly clear in the fluff that they don't understand either as well as the specialists at Ghrond or the White Tower. Ariel started using Dark Magic based off being given some basic pointers by Morathi while obviously still not having any real idea of what she was doing or what price she would pay for doing so, and when it comes to High Magic... the most magically-inclined of the glades of Athel Loren holds that position because it retains some of the traditions of Ulthuan. The Wood Elves dabble in advanced magic, but the High and Dark Elves are still the masters.

    On the other hand, if you want an expert on magic that pertains to nature, you go to Athel Loren, and they do have the worldroots as well as possibly having greater exposure to more casual levels of magic.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,205
    Humans cannot dabble in multiple lores without going insane.

    It's not much of a disadvantage though. You can count the number of characters in the setting who can use more than one lore at a time on one hand. Even though the mighty slann know every spell from every lore of battle magic, it's still too dangerous to channel more than one wind at a time without the unique discipline and restrictions of high magic. Doing so would risk creating dark magic, which only the druchii can control without going mad. Necromancers are generally the only mortals foolish enough to try harnessing dark magic and they're pretty much universally insane.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    edited July 2018

    Humans cannot dabble in multiple lores without going insane.

    It's not much of a disadvantage though. You can count the number of characters in the setting who can use more than one lore at a time on one hand. Even though the mighty slann know every spell from every lore of battle magic, it's still too dangerous to channel more than one wind at a time without the unique discipline and restrictions of high magic. Doing so would risk creating dark magic, which only the druchii can control without going mad. Necromancers are generally the only mortals foolish enough to try harnessing dark magic and they're pretty much universally insane.

    That's not really true.

    In principle, any spellcaster capable of using High Magic also has at least some proficiency with some, and likely all, of the eight core lores. In the tabletop, for game balance purposes it was uncommon to be able to draw spells from multiple lores, but strictly speaking, any High Magic user has the potential to bust out spells from the component lores as well.

    Even in the tabletop rules, this is somewhat represented, as races capable of using High Magic tend to have ways of having non-special characters who can use multiple lores. High Elves have the Loremasters, while Slann had multiple ways of managing to have spells from multiple lores over the editions. So while there are not many beings capable of casting spells from multiple lores, it is certainly more than you can count on one hand (it's implied, for instance, that there are about 75 Slann still living, mostly 5th generation).
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,205
    Draxynnic said:

    Humans cannot dabble in multiple lores without going insane.

    It's not much of a disadvantage though. You can count the number of characters in the setting who can use more than one lore at a time on one hand. Even though the mighty slann know every spell from every lore of battle magic, it's still too dangerous to channel more than one wind at a time without the unique discipline and restrictions of high magic. Doing so would risk creating dark magic, which only the druchii can control without going mad. Necromancers are generally the only mortals foolish enough to try harnessing dark magic and they're pretty much universally insane.

    That's not really true.

    In principle, any spellcaster capable of using High Magic also has at least some proficiency with some, and likely all, of the eight core lores. In the tabletop, for game balance purposes it was uncommon to be able to draw spells from multiple lores, but strictly speaking, any High Magic user has the potential to bust out spells from the component lores as well.

    Even in the tabletop rules, this is somewhat represented, as races capable of using High Magic tend to have ways of having non-special characters who can use multiple lores. High Elves have the Loremasters, while Slann had multiple ways of managing to have spells from multiple lores over the editions. So while there are not many beings capable of casting spells from multiple lores, it is certainly more than you can count on one hand (it's implied, for instance, that there are about 75 Slann still living, mostly 5th generation).
    High magic is a special discipline which allows you to safely weave multiple winds together safely. It doesn't matter if they know every spell in the universe, high mages can't simply cast spells from any lore, they have to cast high magic spells. Loremasters of Hoeth are a special case where they are able to safely harness the weakest spell from each lore; anything more would be disaster. They have intentionally limited both their own power and the power of their spells to safely wield a small fraction of multiple lores.

    The slann, even Mazd, can only use one lore at a time.

    The exceptions are few and far between. Teclis, Nagash, Mannfred, Allariele and Morathi are the only mortals (I use the term loosely) I can remember who can safely harness the full power of multiple lores at once.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    edited July 2018

    Draxynnic said:

    Humans cannot dabble in multiple lores without going insane.

    It's not much of a disadvantage though. You can count the number of characters in the setting who can use more than one lore at a time on one hand. Even though the mighty slann know every spell from every lore of battle magic, it's still too dangerous to channel more than one wind at a time without the unique discipline and restrictions of high magic. Doing so would risk creating dark magic, which only the druchii can control without going mad. Necromancers are generally the only mortals foolish enough to try harnessing dark magic and they're pretty much universally insane.

    That's not really true.

    In principle, any spellcaster capable of using High Magic also has at least some proficiency with some, and likely all, of the eight core lores. In the tabletop, for game balance purposes it was uncommon to be able to draw spells from multiple lores, but strictly speaking, any High Magic user has the potential to bust out spells from the component lores as well.

    Even in the tabletop rules, this is somewhat represented, as races capable of using High Magic tend to have ways of having non-special characters who can use multiple lores. High Elves have the Loremasters, while Slann had multiple ways of managing to have spells from multiple lores over the editions. So while there are not many beings capable of casting spells from multiple lores, it is certainly more than you can count on one hand (it's implied, for instance, that there are about 75 Slann still living, mostly 5th generation).
    High magic is a special discipline which allows you to safely weave multiple winds together safely. It doesn't matter if they know every spell in the universe, high mages can't simply cast spells from any lore, they have to cast high magic spells. Loremasters of Hoeth are a special case where they are able to safely harness the weakest spell from each lore; anything more would be disaster. They have intentionally limited both their own power and the power of their spells to safely wield a small fraction of multiple lores.

    The slann, even Mazd, can only use one lore at a time.

    The exceptions are few and far between. Teclis, Nagash, Mannfred, Allariele and Morathi are the only mortals (I use the term loosely) I can remember who can safely harness the full power of multiple lores at once.
    Look at the Contemplations lore attribute for Slann using High Magic (Lizardmen Armies, 8E, p60). In short, it allows Slann using High Magic to trade any High Magic spell they've just cast to roll on the spell list for any lore that the Slann have access to. That lore attribute pretty much exists to represent Slann being able to carry multiple lores.

    And that's just one way that a Slann can end up with spells from multiple lores. If there are two or more on the table, they can swap spells via slann telepathy. One of the special abilities that Slann can buy allows them to start with spells from multiple lores. And so on.

    Regarding the High Elves, as far as I know there's nothing indicating that Loremasters are just taking the easier spells because they're "safe" - that sounds like fanon justifying a gameplay mechanic to me. And everything I've read in the fluff indicates that to a High Magic user, a spell using a single Wind is just a High Magic spell that only draws from a single Wind (High Magic spells don't HAVE to draw from all eight winds, after all, although the most powerful tend to draw from more winds). High Elf mages only having access to a single lore is purely a gameplay mechanic.

    And Slann explicitly had multiple ways to have spells from multiple lores even on the tabletop.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,690
    Claiming Mazdamaundi can only use one lore because it's "too dangerous for him otherwise" is like claiming professional motorcyclists should all switch to childrens bikes with training wheels lest they rely upon knowing what they're doing to see them to safety. It's represented in game that he can willingly string together multiple lores. Morathis arguably strongest spell took multiple sorceresses to cast and was deflected by a single time stasis'd hedge wizard. Even when it was shot back with more force than it shot out with all it managed to do was lay a single region of Ulthuan to somewhat liveable waste. You know that region with Sildra Tor? The mountains around the province literally called Iron Peaks where Morathi starts? Yea those weren't there until Mazdamundi just decided he was tired of dealing with Dark Elves. So he rearranged the Geography on a whim. That was him not even trying. He could **** capsize Ulthuan if he was feeling particularly frisky about the Great Plan one day. Remember the Time of Woes for the dwarfs? That was a group of Slann who thought that the entire world needed a bit of rearrangement for the great plan. Who cares if it cost the lives of 75% of an entire race, those tectonic plates won't move themselves. Did more damage with overnight mental earthquakes than the Elves managed over the course of an entire war when they were at their apex.

    In the power structure of casters Slann sit apart. They're biologically engineered to be better than everyone else at it. There's no associated learning curve. Problem is waking them up to use any of it. It goes:

    Nagash and really any god who decides to directly assert their magical power in the realm. They're gods for **** sake and basically decide how magic even works. Well Nagash is only half way there. He also happens to be the most active.

    The Slann, starting with first generation like Kroak and working their way down. Mazdamundi being the current non-relic Slann to beat. But even a fifth generation Slann can change your astrological sign with his pinky pinger. Do toads have fingers? Are they fingers or just more toes?

    Greater Daemons of Chaos, ebbing depending entirely on Chaos influence in the area. Could be worthless. Could give Slann a run for their money. Most of the time in the Mortal realm their powers aren't so much as kneecapped as they are ripped away. Like if big daddy tzeentch took it home and filled a fairly overzealous restraining order. Catch them in the realm of Chaos and they get to literally write the rules as they go.

    Then the endlessly recycled and impossible to accurately determine debate about the mortal mages. Like Morathi, Teclis, Ariel etc. Mages with clear definied limitations and a measurable learning curve to their potential. Who weren't handed god mode at birth but have all their immortal life to try and play catch up.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    edited July 2018
    Did you just call Caledor Dragontamer a hedge wizard? Note also that, whatever the Vortex campaign texts might have implied, Caledor isn't in there on his own...

    It has been said in the fluff that while the Slann have been around for longer and have a stronger innate affinity for magic, Elves have the ability to match them in potential (although it's rare - Teclis, though, is close to Nagash in power) and exceed them in inventiveness. The Slann wouldn't have thought to make the Vortex if the Elves hadn't - they'd have continued trying to rebuild the original defences that were aimed at keeping Chaos out in the first place rather than devising a ritual that drained magic such that the demons stopped manifesting.

    (It's also worth noting that the skaven had their own earthquake-inducing event which is also blamed for the earthquakes. I tend to think it was the interaction of the two that made it so bad.)
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,883

    Claiming Mazdamaundi can only use one lore because it's "too dangerous for him otherwise" is like claiming professional motorcyclists should all switch to childrens bikes with training wheels lest they rely upon knowing what they're doing to see them to safety. It's represented in game that he can willingly string together multiple lores. Morathis arguably strongest spell took multiple sorceresses to cast and was deflected by a single time stasis'd hedge wizard. Even when it was shot back with more force than it shot out with all it managed to do was lay a single region of Ulthuan to somewhat liveable waste. You know that region with Sildra Tor? The mountains around the province literally called Iron Peaks where Morathi starts? Yea those weren't there until Mazdamundi just decided he was tired of dealing with Dark Elves. So he rearranged the Geography on a whim. That was him not even trying. He could **** capsize Ulthuan if he was feeling particularly frisky about the Great Plan one day. Remember the Time of Woes for the dwarfs? That was a group of Slann who thought that the entire world needed a bit of rearrangement for the great plan. Who cares if it cost the lives of 75% of an entire race, those tectonic plates won't move themselves. Did more damage with overnight mental earthquakes than the Elves managed over the course of an entire war when they were at their apex.

    In the power structure of casters Slann sit apart. They're biologically engineered to be better than everyone else at it. There's no associated learning curve. Problem is waking them up to use any of it. It goes:

    Nagash and really any god who decides to directly assert their magical power in the realm. They're gods for **** sake and basically decide how magic even works. Well Nagash is only half way there. He also happens to be the most active.

    The Slann, starting with first generation like Kroak and working their way down. Mazdamundi being the current non-relic Slann to beat. But even a fifth generation Slann can change your astrological sign with his pinky pinger. Do toads have fingers? Are they fingers or just more toes?

    Greater Daemons of Chaos, ebbing depending entirely on Chaos influence in the area. Could be worthless. Could give Slann a run for their money. Most of the time in the Mortal realm their powers aren't so much as kneecapped as they are ripped away. Like if big daddy tzeentch took it home and filled a fairly overzealous restraining order. Catch them in the realm of Chaos and they get to literally write the rules as they go.

    Then the endlessly recycled and impossible to accurately determine debate about the mortal mages. Like Morathi, Teclis, Ariel etc. Mages with clear definied limitations and a measurable learning curve to their potential. Who weren't handed god mode at birth but have all their immortal life to try and play catch up.

    Yes as you and @Draxynnic already mentioned, it's purely a case of 'Gameplay and Story Segregation', many super powerful characters don't show their full potential in games because "balance".
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Tayvar said:

    Claiming Mazdamaundi can only use one lore because it's "too dangerous for him otherwise" is like claiming professional motorcyclists should all switch to childrens bikes with training wheels lest they rely upon knowing what they're doing to see them to safety. It's represented in game that he can willingly string together multiple lores. Morathis arguably strongest spell took multiple sorceresses to cast and was deflected by a single time stasis'd hedge wizard. Even when it was shot back with more force than it shot out with all it managed to do was lay a single region of Ulthuan to somewhat liveable waste. You know that region with Sildra Tor? The mountains around the province literally called Iron Peaks where Morathi starts? Yea those weren't there until Mazdamundi just decided he was tired of dealing with Dark Elves. So he rearranged the Geography on a whim. That was him not even trying. He could **** capsize Ulthuan if he was feeling particularly frisky about the Great Plan one day. Remember the Time of Woes for the dwarfs? That was a group of Slann who thought that the entire world needed a bit of rearrangement for the great plan. Who cares if it cost the lives of 75% of an entire race, those tectonic plates won't move themselves. Did more damage with overnight mental earthquakes than the Elves managed over the course of an entire war when they were at their apex.

    In the power structure of casters Slann sit apart. They're biologically engineered to be better than everyone else at it. There's no associated learning curve. Problem is waking them up to use any of it. It goes:

    Nagash and really any god who decides to directly assert their magical power in the realm. They're gods for **** sake and basically decide how magic even works. Well Nagash is only half way there. He also happens to be the most active.

    The Slann, starting with first generation like Kroak and working their way down. Mazdamundi being the current non-relic Slann to beat. But even a fifth generation Slann can change your astrological sign with his pinky pinger. Do toads have fingers? Are they fingers or just more toes?

    Greater Daemons of Chaos, ebbing depending entirely on Chaos influence in the area. Could be worthless. Could give Slann a run for their money. Most of the time in the Mortal realm their powers aren't so much as kneecapped as they are ripped away. Like if big daddy tzeentch took it home and filled a fairly overzealous restraining order. Catch them in the realm of Chaos and they get to literally write the rules as they go.

    Then the endlessly recycled and impossible to accurately determine debate about the mortal mages. Like Morathi, Teclis, Ariel etc. Mages with clear definied limitations and a measurable learning curve to their potential. Who weren't handed god mode at birth but have all their immortal life to try and play catch up.

    Yes as you and @Draxynnic already mentioned, it's purely a case of 'Gameplay and Story Segregation', many super powerful characters don't show their full potential in games because "balance".
    In the tabletop, there's probably also a degree of "this is something they can do, but if they try to do it during a battle they'll be spending the entire battle casting that one spell".
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    Draxynnic said:


    In the tabletop, there's probably also a degree of "this is something they can do, but if they try to do it during a battle they'll be spending the entire battle casting that one spell".

    Wonder, if "Rites" is implementation form of this in TW.
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