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Possible fix for the excessive monetary gains (Steamrolling)

wolphyxwolphyx Registered Users Posts: 43
edited July 2018 in Ancestral Update Support
I have played the ancestry patch with Macedon for a while and really like the new changes. Marrying off your divorced wife to the other party for some loyalty only to marry the pirate queen Teuta of the Ardiaei afterwards is hilarious and engaging.

One significant old problem persists, though: The steamrolling of the player, mainly connected to having an abundance of money to spend.

As it has been mentioned in this thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/222778/criticism-and-feedback it is way too easy to get rich quick.

I for my part, think this is mainly due to the extensive amount of upkeep reducing abilities, traits, skills and other effects in the campaign, diminishing an already too low upkeep (which ranges mostly from 50 to 200 gold per unit; although the units might be 8 times as effective on the battlefield, this does not show in their upkeep) to a nearly nonexistant one (about 100 gold for a Tier IV unit), when it actually should increase with a growing empire (reflecting the increasing management overhead).

Possible solutions for this matter without needing to rebalance the entire economy or trait system:

1. Increase the overall army upkeep with imperium level: I tested this in one of my mods to great effect. Unlike the sometimes arbitrary corruption increase ("oh you have surpassed this magic number of conquered regions? 10% percent of your entire populace just got corrupt!") it would be tied to the number and quality of your armies, which is something you can control even after surpassing the threshold. I'm not talking about excessive percentages, but just a little progressive increase to counteract some of the positive effects from research and characters. An example from the aforementioned test mod:

2. Increase the higher tier land unit upkeep by using something like this formula on the current unit upkeeps: upkeep = upkeep * (1+upkeep/360) OR recalculate them somehow based on the sum of certain stats etc. Tier I and II are adequately priced in early game, but Tier III and IV units are way too cheap, and by the time you can build them, you can replace all of your armies with only elite units without any problem or monetary concerns, while still swimming in gold afterwards. I think Tier IV units upkeep should per default be around 300-400 at least instead of 200 like it is now, because while your economic output multiplies, your upkeep generally reduces, making recruiting supreme elite units all the time a no brainer. For illustration, here an example of the test formula above, increasing the high tier unit upkeep while keeping the low tier moderately priced:

I also sometimes think the game's economy was balanced without much regard to what trade between factions can do for you - It's insanely powerful. I managed to reach +26000 income from trade as Saba by trading with only 13 factions, each of them eventually giving me around +2000 income per turn - which is the upkeep of an entire army in vanilla. The best part: As far as I can tell, trade income seems not to be affected by corruption, which lead to me having the trade income surpass the income (after corruption) from provinces eventually. This effect would also at least somehow be adressed with the changes mentioned above, because the trade income will need to be used in the army upkeep.

I hope you consider these changes or ideas for one of the next updates. In any case, thank you for this newest update because the family tree with its intrigues is wonderful and increases the immersion tenfold. :)
Post edited by wolphyx on

Comments

  • happycompyhappycompy Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 355
    edited July 2018
    I'm with wolphyx on this one. It's something I've heavily remedied in my community patch mod.

    1. I implemented the progressive upkeep increase per imperium from Age of Charlemagne into the game (similar to wolphyx)

    2. I've made all resource buildings give their bonuses to ADJACENT REGiONS, instead of factionwide. This makes a huge difference.

    3. I reworked the political influence effects to largely mirror Attila's grand campaign. These changes also help reduce the ludicrous amount of free public order there is in ROME 2.


    Upkeep is definitely too low for higher tier units as mentioned.
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  • CA_GrimfeldCA_Grimfeld Registered Users, Moderators, CA Staff Posts: 291
    Thanks guys for this impressive list of suggestions. The upkeep increase per imperium level does sound a very valid option that I myself have considered. Also @happycompy 's suggestion of making resource buildings affect adjacent regions seems reasonable, it's what we did for ED when we balanced the food producing minor settlements.

    It's a bit late today to do anything, but I'll be sure to discuss this with the rest of the team tomorrow.
    Cheers!

  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739
    Sorry, but i would have a problem, if you would make iron resource only region wide. Its unhistorical, that legion would march to Noricum to get better armour. Noricum ferrum was traded in all parts of the empire and equipped the troups in the destination region, not vice versa. I would simple ignore the iron resource, if it was only regionwide. Also wine should stay global, but its public order effects should perhaps decreased moderately.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,627
    edited July 2018
    The mod actually fixes the income issue (although I think it overshoots completely when it comes to AI aggression as you will basically fight everyone there is come turn 5), but it seems there are a few bugs, like removing the hoplite wall from hoplite units.

  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739
    Increased unit costs tied to imperium level seems to be a good way, as the hellenistic empires and the roman empire have had a permanent high inflation.
  • BoicoteBoicote Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 801
    The plagues and sanitation system from ED is also an indirect way to decrease income. It forces the player to occupy more building slots with sanitation buildings and less money-making buildings.
  • BoicoteBoicote Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 801
    If this suggestion of increasing unit costs according to imperium level is implemented (and I hope it will) don't forget to review the economic victory conditions. Some of those conditions require the player to have an income of at least 90000 talents.
  • CA_GrimfeldCA_Grimfeld Registered Users, Moderators, CA Staff Posts: 291
    edited July 2018
    @MarcusIuniusBrutus I assumed that happycompy was referring to the various factionwide bonuses such as + public order from lead mines. Resource effects, such as what Iron or Horses give will always be factionwide.
  • wolphyxwolphyx Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited July 2018
    @Boicote: at least in my test mod, I actually achieved an economic victory even with the upkeep increase on late game units AND imperium level. The trading is just that good, and oftentimes you can fulfill all other economic victory conditions and then just disband all your armies for one turn to achieve the income per turn one.

    @CA_Grimfeld: But I'm glad the team will have a look at these suggestions, that makes me happy :) Keep up the good work!
  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739

    @MarcusIuniusBrutus I assumed that happycompy was referring to the various factionwide bonuses such as + public order from lead mines. Resource effects, such as what Iron or Horses give will always be factionwide.

    Good, PO resources are indeed a little to effective.
  • epic_1597336088109yK0jpFepic_1597336088109yK0jpF Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 855
    I'd love to try the mod, link please?
    Over the Alps perhaps!
    Team Athens
  • wolphyxwolphyx Registered Users Posts: 43
    @Monkeeyo If you mean my test mod, it's called Steamroll Prevention Mechanics and can be found here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1351128648 (It's not up to date for the ancestry update, though)
  • MeteoR174MeteoR174 Registered Users Posts: 21
    edited July 2018

    @MarcusIuniusBrutus I assumed that happycompy was referring to the various factionwide bonuses such as + public order from lead mines. Resource effects, such as what Iron or Horses give will always be factionwide.

    But it's not right. In the first versions of the game there were special buildings that gave bonuses in armor, ammunition and equipment.
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