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[A few more points] The Ancestral update

The_baronThe_baron Registered Users Posts: 645
edited July 2018 in General Discussion
Alright so after seeing Republic of Play (former DarrenTotalWar) review / criticism on the latest update I left him a comment which I feel like I should share over here in continuation of my first post. Below I am gonna cut out the relevant parts and issues (for viewing the full comment , go to linked video)





[Reference to my Thread in the forums : https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/222841/first-impressions-the-ancestral-update ]
The_Baron said:

* Family tree still doesn't provide the emotional connection and story telling it gave in Rome I - In my post I wrote about inheritance of traits however you focused on how the traits are displayed and you did a better work in conveying what I had in mind. Thanks to you it made it clear to me that the issue is indeed lies in the amount of traits , their display and how they are gained ! I think there should be unlimited gain of traits (only restricted by the years a person lives) and that the actions will dictate this gain - this is what I was lacking and this is why characters feel so disconnected and empty of personality.


To emphasize the point here is a picture which can show how to make a personality very visible and understandable for the viewer in a shot that didn't linger more than a couple of seconds !
The_Baron said:

d) Characters lives are indeed shorter and have less impact in Rome II , but there is maybe a small benefit for it now that the new update is out ! I feel like its very logical that if one would want to expand his control without advancing his offspring (which come of age at 16) he will have to take in people of different ages from different political parties ! What CA needs in order to make it better is to add Family Tree for the other political parties(which will add children and connection between them) and maybe add children from time to time to the other nobles tab for adoption(by events or by random chance). This eventually makes the lives of your children especially your Family children more precious !

Darren argued due to short lifespan not enough time is left to create bonds with army leaders, my argument is that maybe not all connections do need to be of greatest bonds and that having short bonds will help the player appreciate the longer bonds (family bonds).
The_Baron said:

e) Man of the Hour - I as well had great joy from this feature from Rome I and Medieval II ! I actually think there is still a simple solution in order to bring it back at least in some manner. At the moment getting characters into the 'Other nobles' can be done with recruitment / events / chance. With overwhelming number of political and military candidates of other houses it might be possible to encourage players to find other ways in order to get candidates ! My suggestion is allowing recruitment of a new candidate to the 'Other nobles' if you win a great battle and get the 'Man of the Hour' event ;) !

A feature that its return is always welcome , this is just a suggestion on how to implement it back :)
The_Baron said:

f) For some reason CA doesn't seem to be trying to incorporate any great mods into their games even if the mods are doing a better job than they did :
* Population : I had been playing with 'People of Rome' mod which gave the missing aspect cities and the army compositions were missing ! it wasn't perfect but if CA would take it and improve on it with the same consistency of work they put into this patch I bet they can make it to function 100% as intended by the mod creators!
* Aging and portraits : 'AAA Generals' this one I just recently been introduced with and my mind was blown ! Different outfits for winter and summer , more portraits , levels impacts how the person will appear in the senate floor , 3 stages of aging , rank impact equipment ! Now I get this is more of a fluff and I rather CA focus on gameplay issues both of us mentioned however I agree with you that at the moment its hard to tell different generals apart, kids don't look like their parents, if you get a general with **** helmet you don't like nothing will change it, but the aging is the probably the most gameplay impactful and CA indeed needs to fix it.

This segment is the one that still bothers me the most. Most people either don't use mods out of lack of knowledge of how to use them or which ones are good and the level impact they have on the game and its balance. That or they just don't want to use mods cause they feel it will harm / restrict the game (can't fight online unless you coordinate with others for the same mods) Now thanks to the Workshop implemented in the Steam adding and removing mods had become a much easier task however due to the facts I just mentioned still most people avoid using them ( I didn't use mods for ages). Now this is unfortunate because clearly some mods are at the level of vanilla game design and the two I mentioned are definitely should be Incorporated ( with permission) as they have managed to out done the original creation ! I can't say enough good words on both mods ! and I am pretty sure there isn't a single person who can come up with a logical system to not incorporate those mods !
The_Baron said:

Just like I knew Family Tree was a possibility for Rome II after it came out (although CA lied and said it wasn't) I know the changes mentioned in the video and in my post and the thread I wrote are not only possible but also achievable in affordable manner and effort ! The only two features which will truly demand a lot of work to fix and I fear we won't see them being done are the Auto resolver (adding flexible results that still depends on stats) and the diplomacy which is still horrible ( and I wrote in my thread that its probably one of the few spots were you can feel the age of Rome II). Other wise with the changes me and you suggested I agree this game can go from 6.5 to 9.5 and even higher ! I think if being implemented Rome II will finally manage to surpass Rome I's legacy !!

Post edited by The_baron on

Comments

  • BoicoteBoicote Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 823
    edited July 2018
    The "man of the hour" was a nice feature but people should keep mind that this feature was nothing more than a random event that only appeared if there were too few member in your family. It was a mechanic to help the player not to lose his game just because there were no more characters in the family tree.
    If you have lots of member in your family, you never get this event, even if your captain commanded your army to an heroic victory.
    Post edited by Boicote on
  • The_baronThe_baron Registered Users Posts: 645
    @Boicote

    It wasn't a as random as you say , it was triggering by great wins , which is a great example of how to reward the player for his actions in battle and campaign at the same time. In my first post I had mentioned on how TW series used to do things right by offering this kind of good reinforcement for the player with features such as :

    * Great battle landmarks.
    * Loot (officially started in Medieval II with the capture prisoners)
    * Added titles for Generals depending on their actions a feature Darren talks about in his video
    * Traits which are connected to the actions of your Leader's actions !
    and so on ...

    Those features were either removed and came back in a lot of the TW games which is a sad fact because everytime they were missing the damage was clearly seen in how people experience the game and the complaints rained on CA. (Think about Warhammer I vs II , in II they added what was already a feature in Rome I - actions leads to traits. Its such a shame people needed to pay another 60$ for this feature that was already introduced to the series back in the 2000's.)

    Now back to the 'Men of the Hour' feature, if you had seen Darren's video he mentions that one of the problems with the current family tree is the lack of connection you have to your characters - which is exactly the reason people asked for this feature from the first place - hence the statement that CA once again missed the mark. Unfortunately since CA doesn't bother to communicate and listen to the fans they keep on missing why we ask for things ;)

    Now what I suggested is a solution, Growing your power over the senate should be a hard task (especially for higher difficulties) which demands skill and will challenge the player (at the moment its not cause other families don't expend and its easy to expand your family). My suggestion is to make the player work harder and feel the reward when it comes in order to expand his family ! so this steps must be taken :

    a) Other political factions get their own families (wives , children , connections) which in turn will make the support each other inside the family as first priority and then outside the family depends on the status they have with other factions.
    b) Other political families expand, by birth or by random chance (which has some factors).
    c) the player will always overwhelmingly be offered candidates of other political factions and the higher the level the less he will be offered of his faction.
    d) if your family dies , you die ;)
    e) Now that all of those in place introduce more events that allow recruitment of 'Other Nobles' (which you still need to adopt in order to have them as part of the family) include in other nobles women and children and also - Men of the Hour ;).


    This way Fighting a hard battle and managing to get this event is paying off for the player as it is really rewarding and at the same time really substantial as it helps the player to get something he really needs !
  • BoicoteBoicote Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 823
    edited July 2018
    Overall, I agree with your statements. I just made a contextualization about how the Man of the Hour works :).
  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739
    edited July 2018
    Boicote said:

    The "man of the hour" was a nice feature but people should keep mind that this feature was nothing more than a random event that only appeared if there were too few member in your family. It was a mechanic to help the player not to lose his game just because there were no more characters in the family tree.
    If you have lots of member in your family, you never get this event, even if your captain commanded your army to an heroic victory

    Boicote said:

    The "man of the hour" was a nice feature but people should keep mind that this feature was nothing more than a random event that only appeared if there were too few member in your family. It was a mechanic to help the player not to lose his game just because there were no more characters in the family tree.
    If you have lots of member in your family, you never get this event, even if your captain commanded your army to an heroic victory.

    This. I got the man of the hour event quite often, as i didn't cared about Family Member because of the too often bad random traits. The Event didn't required a big victory.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 31,274
    edited July 2018
    O boy...what a mess.

    "* Great battle landmarks.
    * Loot (officially started in Medieval II with the capture prisoners)
    * Added titles for Generals depending on their actions a feature Darren talks about in his video
    * Traits which are connected to the actions of your Leader's actions !
    and so on ..."


    The only thing that's gone are the titles for your generals, and those did not come from your actions but from the traits you picked up. Come WH1 and you can name and title your characters yourself which is superior.

    Everything else, battle landmarks and loot, are also in Rome2 (enslaving and ransoming was there since launch BTW), including the traits and R2 was the first title to actually include hints as to how traits are acquired.

    (Think about Warhammer I vs II , in II they added what was already a feature in Rome I - actions leads to traits. Its such a shame people needed to pay another 60$ for this feature that was already introduced to the series back in the 2000's.)

    Completely, utterly and irredeemably false. They were in WH1 as well, the only thing they added in WH2 are more detailed explanations of what actions lead to what traits you get (you had to get a mod for this in WH1). It's good when criticism is actually backed by research.

    Now back to the 'Men of the Hour' feature, if you had seen Darren's video he mentions that one of the problems with the current family tree is the lack of connection you have to your characters - which is exactly the reason people asked for this feature from the first place - hence the statement that CA once again missed the mark. Unfortunately since CA doesn't bother to communicate and listen to the fans they keep on missing why we ask for things ;)

    Have you seen the feedback board for the Ancestral Update? The team's communicating a LOT and the give quite detailed explanations as to how suggestions from fans will or won't be implemented. Please do some research before criticising people because ignoring this makes you look either sloppy or flat out dishonest.

    As for being unable to grow connected to characters because they are with you for a shorter while, completely disagree. I grow more attached to characters I know won't be around forever. I found the R1/M2 family system absolutely horrible because it gave the impression that practically the whole Empire was run by one single family and because you could achieve your objectives within 1-2 generations it greatly reduced the sense of scale and epicness. Even worse, in M2 you had two years going by per turn, but your characters aged slower, which means you could have characters which could regularly live up to 100 in game years and more which broke immersion hard.

    Not to speak that because your Empire was run by one family and all addtional characters were added to it, the tree became invariably cluttered and made me care even less about my family because it had a bazillion members.

  • The_baronThe_baron Registered Users Posts: 645
    @Ephraim_Dalton
    Wow indeed what a mess !

    "the only thing that's gone are the titles for your generals..."
    when you criticize someones post , follow up on what he is writing about - context is important !

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    The list of features you quoted were features which provided the player with a rewarding feedback system for his gameplay. Getting a Great battle landmark doesn't change gameplay but it changes player experience , the reason people cried out for it was because it was a visible rewarding system which gave the play a feedback on his progress and gameplay.

    I mentioned those features were MISSING from some of the games and the better games were the ones who had as many of those features included ! (as been seen from player feedback) I didn't say they were completely missing for all games.

    Now as for the titles, you picked up traits from your actions and therefore your titles were connected to actions as well. Personally naming your newly fresh general "The butcher of the world" when he didn't do anything to earn it and he just been releasing prisoners and occupying half of the game - might be fine for you - but its definitely not superior to the former system in my eyes !

    Back to the context issue : I brought the chat about the features I mentioned as explanation on players receive rewarding feedback for their ingame actions. Loot is an example of part of a visible rewarding system the player gets which indicates his success, In Warhammer it was done in a very well manner, but there is nothing in context between what I talk about and the enslavement system in Rome II ....

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    Rome II trait system was very limited and often unrelated to actions , some actions did lead to traits other traits just gained randomly without clear reasoning , it was more clear how to get traits in Rome I and Medieval II then in Rome II.
    I will give you that both in Rome II and Warhammer I the traits weren't all random but surely they were more random and not action driven than in Rome I, Medieval II.

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    a) I didn't claim the system in Rome I or Medieval II was perfect , in fact I made the point that the new additions such as the intrigue system are steps forward. However if you some how find better connections to characters that look all about the same, don't age up , have limited traits (cause personalities are known to be not complex and very flat) and those traits are shown by image cards who look also almost all the same that without pointing on them you won't be able to tell anything about the person ... well than you have some very unique way of bonding , I wish you good luck with it but I think like many others that this is a horrible system that doesn't create bonding and the many posts and complaints about the lack of bonding with Rome II generals is a clear sign that this wasn't just my problem.
    b) Running an entire empire underneath one family is exactly what kinds and emperors did .... so I have no clue what is your immersion problems.
  • noggmoritznoggmoritz Registered Users Posts: 5
    Video in OP should be a required viewing for every CA dev working on Rome II. The Family tree part is so spot on.

    Thanks
  • The_baronThe_baron Registered Users Posts: 645
    @Ephraim_Dalton

    "Have you seen the feedback board for the Ancestral Update? The team's communicating a LOT and the give quite detailed explanations as to how suggestions from fans will or won't be implemented. Please do some research before criticising people because ignoring this makes you look either sloppy or flat out dishonest. "

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/223148/ancestral-update-feedback-and-suggestions-part-1

    so much responses by CA I got ... Its so amazing ... its so good that it is invisible ! cause CA invented stealth comments to show forum members how much they appreciate them ;).

    made a test the results are here and I am write don't tell me I am sloppy or flat out dishonest ever again.
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