Horrors of Tzeentch (Suggestions for CA)

ptavangar

So in the lore the pink horrors of tzeentch (when killed) divide into 2 blue horrors and then each of those (when killed) turns into 2 brimstone horrors. For Tzeentch's roster, do you think it would be lore-friendly to have the blue and brimstone horrors as separate units in the roster? Or should they only come from the pink horrors?

I think it would be super cool and loreful if CA had them actually divide on the battlefield into blue and further brimstone horrors. Each having its own statline/attacks based on the lore. But in addition to these transformations it would probably be okay for the two smaller horrors to have their own unit to be brought into battle as well.

Thoughts and suggestions for CA?

Helhound#7332

You could technically take units of Blue Horrors. So I could see them putting both in, pink as an upgrade to Blue Horrors. Tier 2 to Tier 3 kind of thing. But Horrors are defined by their ability to split themselves apart. If we have Horrors of any variety (which I couldn't imagine a way we wouldn't), CA needs to find a way to incorporate their subdivision on wounds.

ptavangar

Agreed. So you would have them give us pink and blue horrors as separate units but not brimstone horrors. And at the same time have the transformation from pink to 2 blue and 2 blue to 4 brimstone. I like it.

Ninjipples#4797

Iirc the 8th edition versions of pink horrors had 1 wound and died if they lost it. Did not spawn any other models.

They may have blue horros as another unit.

Horus38#7265

Ninjipples said:

Iirc the 8th edition versions of pink horrors had 1 wound and died if they lost it. Did not spawn any other models.

They may have blue horros as another unit.

^ This is also what I'm remembering.

ptavangar

Ninjipples said:

Iirc the 8th edition versions of pink horrors had 1 wound and died if they lost it. Did not spawn any other models.

They may have blue horros as another unit.

I'm not saying the TT isn't important when it comes to TWW. Certainly the army books are good to use as a basis to form rosters. But I feel like with this type of thing we should look at the lore. Probably there aren't any brimstone horror models anyway for TT right? It was probably just simpler not having any blue horrors split from pink horrors, etc.

It would be not only more loreful but also more interesting in general to have pink split to 2 blue and then to 4 brimstone. But I'm fine with them having blue or even brimstone as separate units as well.

Helhound#7332

Hows that poem go again?

Horrors are Pink. Horrors are Blue. Where once there was one. Now there are two.

Something like that.

Michael4537

Horrors are pink! Horrors are blue!
Where once there was one, now there are two!

Seswatha#7633

I would make pink horrors die automatically at 20% hp (like that Morghur's aura) and get replaced by a healthy unit of blue horrors. If you want to incorporate them "splitting" make blue horror unit have more models. E.g. pink horror unit 60 models, blue horror unit 120 models.

Both should be purchasable separately.

I would not bother with brimstone horrors, that would be annoying. Maybe make blue horrors explode and deal some damage on death to represent it.

Wyvax#7456

MadDemiurg said:

I would make pink horrors die automatically at 20% hp (like that Morghur's aura) and get replaced by a healthy unit of blue horrors. If you want to incorporate them "splitting" make blue horror unit have more models. E.g. pink horror unit 60 models, blue horror unit 120 models.

Both should be purchasable separately.

I would not bother with brimstone horrors, that would be annoying. Maybe make blue horrors explode and deal some damage on death to represent it.

^This. All that needs to be done is implement a rule similar to the HP Abominations Skavenslave spawn.

Harkovast#1792

Brimstone horrors are from age of sigmar, not proper warhammer.

ptavangar

MadDemiurg said:

I would make pink horrors die automatically at 20% hp (like that Morghur's aura) and get replaced by a healthy unit of blue horrors. If you want to incorporate them "splitting" make blue horror unit have more models. E.g. pink horror unit 60 models, blue horror unit 120 models.

Both should be purchasable separately.

I would not bother with brimstone horrors, that would be annoying. Maybe make blue horrors explode and deal some damage on death to represent it.

Great idea. I think that is probably the best way to do it. And I agree that the blue horrors should have double the unit size. Although, I would prefer that the HP threshold be closer to 0 percent. No reason why they can't make it proc when the unit actually dies completely.

Harkovast said:

Brimstone horrors are from age of sigmar, not proper warhammer.

I don't know if that is correct but tbh I don't care if it is. Even is AoS and ET were a little disappointing, why should we exclude cool units that just happened to be added during them? Like stormfiends or putrid blightkings for example.

Harkovast#1792

Age of sigmar is a different setting. There is plenty of stuff in warhammer without bringing in things from another setting.

If they are desperate for content they could start doign Cathy or Ind.

Putting in age of sigmar stuff would be like putting in space marines and eldar.

Harkovast#1792

I would do horrors as a unit.
So they all die normally then whe nteh last pink horrors dies BAM a blue horror unit with double the size of the starting pink horror unit appears.

To do it a bit at a time would be unworkable in a game like this.

Draxynnic#3149

One possible approach could be to make it a graphical thing that indicates the health of the model: when an individual Horror's health drops below a threshold, it turns blue. Not as satisfying as having them actually split, but it would be a nod to that behaviour.

PLHenry#4565

It would be a deep shame if the Horror's didn't work as they did in the TT (for almost all editions) and in the lore. It is unique and would function as a good selling point for CA.

Harkovast#1792

I dont think having tow different types of creature in the same unit would be workable. That's why I think the horror spawning should happen when the unit is destroyed.
Since daemons won't route but will crumble more like undead I imagine, they wont just run away before their power triggers.

Also it needs to be one unit of double the model count rather than two units spawned as otehrwise it may mess up army composition after the battle.

uriak

Yeah that rule seems quite a bother to implement in the current engine, it would require both handling mixed units and spawning in continuous chunks... what with the end battle results then? Do we end up with a blue horror units?

Something akin to spawning that units from the other is a good idea.

Harkovast#1792

To be honest, Pink horros splitting in to was a fun idea but always very awkward to make work on the table top.
It might actualy work better in age of sigmar, where the troops are more like groups of individuals rather than a unit.

cat59#8009

I'm more interested by the idea that ranged Daemons, like the Horrors, will either have ammunition, like normal mortals or Hellcannons. Or are they going to revamp certain ranged units to have new mechanics for ammo, possibly even giving certain wizards a weird form of ranged, weak, spell attack?

Another issue is if they use similar mechanics that the Hellpit uses, then the unit of Blue Horrors that spawn in will take damage over time constantly, because the game will consider them a summoned unit. Army composition wouldn't matter in Campaign, as the Pink Horrors the blues spawned from got killed off, and summoned units rarely, if ever, stick around after the battle, to be used in Campaign.

Seswatha#7633

Whether the replacement blue horror unit will degenerate on not is entirely up to implementation. Personally I think it should, because otherwise pink horrors would effectively have to pay for themselves + blue horror unit, which basically means they'll have to underperform for cost unless they get killed. A temporary summon should come by much cheaper.

Speaking of horror attacks, I think they need to be a hybrid ranged unit with magical missile attacks and decent melee. The other option would be a melee unit with some bound spells, but i like it much less because I think daemon roster will have much more use for a ranged unit.

Harkovast#1792

There are a few ways to come at it, to be sure.

I think ranged demons will have ammunition, if for no other reason than game balance.
A unit that can sit back and fire forever is open to abuse.
Just like they gave undead mechannics for getting tired , they will just hand wave that the daemons evil energy is running out or whatever.

Draxynnic#3149

Strictly speaking, in fact, Horrors used the Units of Spellcasters rule. We're just assuming they'll convert that into a ranged attack because it'd be easier to deal with. Considering that pretty much every other usage of magic that doesn't draw from the Winds of Magic pool has a finite limit, I daresay that whatever the Pink Horrors have will also be limited.

Seswatha#7633

Horrors had different rules across different editions and 40k/fantasy/AoS. Lore wise it's said that they prefer to fight at range with magic but can melee if forced too.

I think missiles with limited ammo and magic damage would be the most fitting TWW implementation. I would also give them the blue horror summon on death as described above and make each pink horror unit give a small bonus to WoM regen.

Setrus#7519

ptavangar said:

Thoughts and suggestions for CA?

It's a cool idea, and not impossible.

If they're a bit like the undead and evaporate rather than rout, if a unit of pink horrors gets destroyed, much like the beefcake rat hit by a chariot unit (whatever it's named) spawns some clanrats when killed, a unit of blue horrors appear.

Having them do it as each individual daemon is killed might be too hard though.

ptavangar

Harkovast said:

Age of sigmar is a different setting. There is plenty of stuff in warhammer without bringing in things from another setting.

If they are desperate for content they could start doign Cathy or Ind.

Putting in age of sigmar stuff would be like putting in space marines and eldar.

Well I would argue that it depends on the unit... Brimstone horrors are hardly inappropriate and I think your analogy doesn't hold water. Many of the endtimes AoS units fit perfectly well into the fantasy world.


Yes I think it would be better if the blue horrors didn't appear until after the entire unit of pink horrors died. Also, the blue horrors should degenerate and not be included as a unit after the battle. The reason I say this is because I doubt CA would take the time to make it so. Would be easier for them to simply have them degenerate and disappear.

Yes I think it is lore-friendly to give them magical ranged attacks like in the lore. Either they could be ranged attacks with ammunition or they could be melee attacks such as those made for the doomfire warlocks.

Also, I hope they differentiate between teh pink and blue horrors. Pink horrors are a bit larger and are gleeful and elated. Blue horrors are a bit smaller and are sad and sullen. I hope their movements and expressions make this very clear. I would also add brimstone horrors because why not. They would either throw fireballs of warpfire or simply run into enemies and explode to catch them on fire.

stankgangsta

Shudders and thinks of late 7th early 8th 40k....

Helhound#7332

stankgangsta said:

Shudders and thinks of late 7th early 8th 40k....

8th edition is the best thing to ever happen to 40k....now that its had some time to develop. Boy that early implementation was quite a mess right!!!! But hey we got god specific legions which kick ass. The Nurgle Death Guard, the Thousand Sons of Tzeentch. Speaking of which, summon horror Tzeentch was the Chaos list to beat for a while there. Not just in 40k either. AoS and 40k, Tzeentch summon spam was a....horrific......nightmare. All because of our good friends the Horrors.

Someone mentioned the summon degredation and I think that's a pretty neat point. Probably the simplest implementation, if somewhat inaccurate, would be that when the whole unit of Pink Horrors dies, two units of Blue Horrors are spawned but suffer summon degradation. We could still keep Blue Horrors are a separate cheaper unit, but without the split rule to differentiate the cost. Also Brimstone Horrors are probably not necessary. While they are comical and fun due to their huge numbers, they also don't do anything. At all. Kinda just more bullet sponges. If CA did bring in Brimstone Horrors, big if, they'd be weaker than zombies and serve the same relative purpose. Just with summon degredation.

dodge33cymru#1936

I think something like the Morghur ability where the unit of pinks gets below a certain strength and replaced with a unit of blues will be the easiest way. We've seen that actual model transformation isn't possible in this engine, so this would be the best way to present this rule IMO?

Ninjipples said:

Iirc the 8th edition versions of pink horrors had 1 wound and died if they lost it. Did not spawn any other models.

They may have blue horros as another unit.

Further evidence, if it were needed, that 8th edition should be retconned completely. Horrors' dividing thing is their thing. I certainly hope it's represented when they are included in game.

Draxynnic#3149

dodge33cymru said:

Further evidence, if it were needed, that 8th edition should be retconned completely. Horrors' dividing thing is their thing. I certainly hope it's represented when they are included in game.

They didn't split in 7th or 6th, either. You need to go back to 5th to get splitting Horrors. I think the assumption was basically that if you managed to 'wound' them and they failed their ward save, that you managed to hit them hard enough that they exploded rather than splitting (which was also a thing), you were finishing off a pair of Blue Horrors that had been split by a previous non-wounding hit, or something of that nature.

Commissar_G#7535

Fear_The_Wolf said:

Hows that poem go again?

Horrors are Pink. Horrors are Blue. Where once there was one. Now there are two.

Something like that.

Michael4537 said:

Horrors are pink! Horrors are blue!
Where once there was one, now there are two!

We found where CA got their inspiration for multiple teams.

Shame people don't multiply in the same manner.