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Total Brohammer's Greenskins Review and Discussion!

JonTaunJonTaun Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 36
It's WAAAAGHHH TIME! This week was a lot of fun so I hope you guys enjoy and leave your opinions!



Remember this just Sekarma and I's opinion after playing regular ladder players with the faction for a week straight. If you disagree with our points please tell us why and offer alternative suggestions. Remember, this in the hopes of helping game balance and making the game more fun and every faction fairly "even" in strength. It's an assymetrical game so remember that "even" is used loosely.
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Comments

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,105
    edited July 2018
    I think Grimgor needs more melee defense, mass, hp and a bonus vs infantry. Allarielle has a value of 55 MD as a support lord even while mounted.

    I think Big Uns should get a bonus vs infantry instead of large while the savage variant stays the same.
  • JedifortnerJedifortner Registered Users Posts: 229
    I think biguns are good with antilarge. They need +10 armor. Maybe if they got orc spear boys but greenskins have a hard time killing multiple big monsters
    Boar biguns need a buff to MA
    Gobbo shaman needs a wolf mount in and great gonna shaman needs a arachnarok spider mount.

    Grimgor is basically useless. Needs mass, BvL, MD, and give him his items the blood forged armor and morks all seeing eye.
    Armor could be augment for physical resistance.
    Morks eye should grant magic resistance. This way you could make enemies have to melee fight him.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 458
    edited July 2018


    Grimgor is basically useless. Needs mass, BvL, MD, and give him his items the blood forged armor and morks all seeing eye.
    Armor could be augment for physical resistance.
    Morks eye should grant magic resistance. This way you could make enemies have to melee fight him.

    Grimgor low melee defense seems to be a TWW1 thing where stats tried to reflect weapons specialization rather than raw skill at arms, but that paradigm is rather gone now. Grimgor is a brawler, not a frail dedicated assassin. He's not against parrying an attack, if he survives he can kill more stuff, which means more fun, he hasn't sworn a death oath or something.

    And yes it would be simple to review, at least, the most known and less used lords and see what they miss from TT, Grimgor should have his items by now (and Archaon his high ward save). And if it makes them more expensive it's fine, it leaves room for their generic counterparts that you never see.

  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    They need heroes... borc, savage orc and big un variety.

    Big un hero should get wyvern Mount

    The cost involved would be very low and would add so many different options in terms of playability in SP and MP
  • JedifortnerJedifortner Registered Users Posts: 229
    Would really like to see orc hero's with different mount options.

    Grimgor could also get an ability that give freenzy to nearby units.

    Throgg and Arielle both have an item that does immune to psyc. Would he better themed to grimgor and greenskins not running if he's fighting nearby.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,641
    Grimgor doesn't need much, he's simply not durable enough. Magic resistance, missile resistance, more health. Anything that allows him to excel in melee and encourages an opponent to engage him in close combat. On foot melee lords in general I think need a balance pass.

    All lords that can be taken on foot really shouldn't be. Mounts are always better, no matter the mount's cost, which in some cases is only a few hundred gold for double speed and extra health and armor.

    Super magic users have been all over the place in Warhammer 2, and while those unupdated from Warhammer 1 aren't great, there's a lot of super powerful wizards with special abilities that justify their inclusion.

    Foot lords like Sigvald and Grimgor kind of just don't do anything. They have no meaningful special abilities and don't have the splash damage or speed of monsters/mounts to justify taking them.

    Even though Kroq'gar's mount costs the same as a unit of saurus infantry or cold one cavalry, bringing him on foot is just a poor decision because he has so little impact. That's a problem in general and any fix to Grimgor would be a great excuse to take a harder look at that problem.
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  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,182
    Foot lords do need to be buffed but their not useless. I like bringing them in some matchups both for cutting costs and increased protection from focus fire. Grimgor does need help though, more mass, hp, and maybe armor.

    As for greenskins monster problem, i would love to see the goblin spear chukka added to the roster, would help them a lot.

    More lords and heroes too, greenskins are missing most of them.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    The conclusion left me a little bamboozled. They go through the greenskin match up with other factions and all of the are bad. Literally all of them.

    They said empire are even... if they go infantry heavy it favours the GS and kite heavy favours empire. So basically, if the opponent doesn’t know what they’re doing it’s ok but otherwise you’re gonna be kited/ lord sniped into oblivion. Then they conclude that the GS are in a very good place and no changes are needed.

    Clearly they need to cheap spear units and some shielded units. Also some heroes with better Mount options.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,105
    edited July 2018
    Theo91 said:

    The conclusion left me a little bamboozled. They go through the greenskin match up with other factions and all of the are bad. Literally all of them.

    They said empire are even... if they go infantry heavy it favours the GS and kite heavy favours empire. So basically, if the opponent doesn’t know what they’re doing it’s ok but otherwise you’re gonna be kited/ lord sniped into oblivion. Then they conclude that the GS are in a very good place and no changes are needed.

    Clearly they need to cheap spear units and some shielded units. Also some heroes with better Mount options.

    The weaknesses greenskins have is heavy cavalry and armored single entities. I wouldn't mind goblins getting a bonus vs large.

    Greenskins are overall T2 so they are pretty competitive right now.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,626
    edited July 2018

    The weaknesses greenskins have is heavy cavalry and armored single entities. I wouldn't mind goblins getting a bonus vs large.

    Surely no problem with that with big bacon riders. Its never cost effective to fight orks on cav, as they pretty much guarantees to rule cav section. Theres nothing they cant trade well, u really dont want to waste ur grails, chaos knights or whatver shags u got vs them. Net+waagh and that units gone. If orcs r denied their lords, it will be an easy fight. Then again ull be eating all sort of lord sniping stuffs the moment u click play as orks lol
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  • JedifortnerJedifortner Registered Users Posts: 229
    yst said:

    The weaknesses greenskins have is heavy cavalry and armored single entities. I wouldn't mind goblins getting a bonus vs large.

    Surely no problem with that with big bacon riders. Its never cost effective to fight orks on cav, as they pretty much guarantees to rule cav section. Theres nothing they cant trade well, u really dont want to waste ur grails, chaos knights or whatver shags u got vs them. Net+waagh and that units gone.
    Boar biguns have MA and MD in low 20s now.without buffs they get shreddeded and you can't deal with multiples all game long.
    My favorite faction just needs a little help. Grimgor with mass and BvL fix's it
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    I would prefer if grimgor was given a huge anti infantry bonus and a huge buff to splash damage. Him melting infantry would be amazing
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,626
    edited July 2018

    Boar biguns have MA and MD in low 20s now.without buffs they get shreddeded and you can't deal with multiples all game long.

    Doesnt matter, anti large ap, bythe time charge bonus ends, any cav ure fighting wouldve lost 50% hp already. Prolly wiped out if u waagh it lol.

    U only need to worry about multiples if they go beyond 4. Eitherway u can always bring 7 if u want to dominate cav, ull melt 4 grails with them when used correctly.
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  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,105
    yst said:

    The weaknesses greenskins have is heavy cavalry and armored single entities. I wouldn't mind goblins getting a bonus vs large.

    Surely no problem with that with big bacon riders. Its never cost effective to fight orks on cav, as they pretty much guarantees to rule cav section. Theres nothing they cant trade well, u really dont want to waste ur grails, chaos knights or whatver shags u got vs them. Net+waagh and that units gone. If orcs r denied their lords, it will be an easy fight. Then again ull be eating all sort of lord sniping stuffs the moment u click play as orks lol
    yst said:

    The weaknesses greenskins have is heavy cavalry and armored single entities. I wouldn't mind goblins getting a bonus vs large.

    Surely no problem with that with big bacon riders. Its never cost effective to fight orks on cav, as they pretty much guarantees to rule cav section. Theres nothing they cant trade well, u really dont want to waste ur grails, chaos knights or whatver shags u got vs them. Net+waagh and that units gone. If orcs r denied their lords, it will be an easy fight. Then again ull be eating all sort of lord sniping stuffs the moment u click play as orks lol
    More so elite heavy cavalry (dragon princes, blood knights, grail knights) can be an issue especially when healing is introduced. Boar Boy Big Un's are the only boar cavalry I use currently. I think the savage variant is too expensive and I like the goblin light cavalry options more than the boar boyz variants.

    Overall I like the greenskins right now. I do think they could still use some minor tweaks just like every other roster.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    For me the only faction that the GS do ok against is empire and even then if the empire player is decent, that’s a tough match up.

    Turin (YouTuber) posted a video where he wrecks the greenskins using two steam tanks for terror and gelt and witch hunters to lord snipe

    I’ve seen people destroy the GS with double doomwheel builds and lots of skirmishes.

    Single large entities that cause terror combined with some clever lord sniping is almost impossible to deal with for the GS. They desperately need an answer to this which for me is the addition of orc heroes
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,626

    More so elite heavy cavalry (dragon princes, blood knights, grail knights) can be an issue especially when healing is introduced. Boar Boy Big Un's are the only boar cavalry I use currently. I think the savage variant is too expensive and I like the goblin light cavalry options more than the boar boyz variants.

    Overall I like the greenskins right now. I do think they could still use some minor tweaks just like every other roster.

    Fist gork'ed it, ive surprised many, many grails with those. Then again they r still elite cavs, if u cant be bothered, really just go broodmother on the flanks.

    Also they r the only bacon riders that r viable of all the 4 variants, the rest r simply garbage, i mean check out questing knights vs sav-orks bacon riders. The dif is insaneeeeee.

    But yea, orks not an easy race, of the entire factions we have now, I`d say they r one of the hardest to use properly.
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  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,105
    yst said:

    More so elite heavy cavalry (dragon princes, blood knights, grail knights) can be an issue especially when healing is introduced. Boar Boy Big Un's are the only boar cavalry I use currently. I think the savage variant is too expensive and I like the goblin light cavalry options more than the boar boyz variants.

    Overall I like the greenskins right now. I do think they could still use some minor tweaks just like every other roster.

    Fist gork'ed it, ive surprised many, many grails with those. Then again they r still elite cavs, if u cant be bothered, really just go broodmother on the flanks.

    Also they r the only bacon riders that r viable of all the 4 variants, the rest r simply garbage, i mean check out questing knights vs sav-orks bacon riders. The dif is insaneeeeee.

    But yea, orks not an easy race, of the entire factions we have now, I`d say they r one of the hardest to use properly.
    Yeah you can definitely buff your way to victory during those uneven engagements.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,182
    I dont think the cav fight is so bad for greenskins if you make good use of their many buffs/debuffs.

    However, regular boar boyz ans both savage variants are crap.

    Savage bbbu have only 14 melee defense, and dont even have anti large. Why would i ever in a million years bring an 1100 cav unit with 14 md?
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,105

    I dont think the cav fight is so bad for greenskins if you make good use of their many buffs/debuffs.

    However, regular boar boyz ans both savage variants are crap.

    Savage bbbu have only 14 melee defense, and dont even have anti large. Why would i ever in a million years bring an 1100 cav unit with 14 md?

    Yeah I am inclined to agree with you. The savage variant is just an avoidable unit right now. I have tried using them and I just regret it.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116

    I dont think the cav fight is so bad for greenskins if you make good use of their many buffs/debuffs.

    However, regular boar boyz ans both savage variants are crap.

    Savage bbbu have only 14 melee defense, and dont even have anti large. Why would i ever in a million years bring an 1100 cav unit with 14 md?

    I case you are brave...and in case you are stupid. In theory it is compensated by their huge health and their phys.resist., but in practise it is still bad trade. I cant say that they are complete trash - they can hit like a truck. But Bbbu still better for price.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,641
    I think savage orc boar boys and bigguns should probably have anti-infantry. I get that it goes against the bigger and 'arder motif that they've given bigguns, but orcs lack a cavalry to fight infantry and also those units are aweful. The other option would be to drastically decrease the price, but I'd rather keep the roster and it's prices varied.

    If savage orc boar riders are going to have sub 20 defense, they should at least absolutely murder something if they get in combat with it.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,626
    Just buff those other bacons.

    Savork bacons biguns r absolute trash, just have a look how much the same cost questing knights are.

    Questing knights $1100
    80 armor
    75 ld
    75 speed
    40 att
    36 def
    12 dmg 36 ap
    41 charge

    Savork bacons $1100
    15% more hp
    25 armor 25% phy resists(equates 35 armor or so)
    68 ld
    66 speed
    28 att
    14 def (LOLLLLLLLL)
    12 dmg 24 ap
    60 charge
    Frenzy

    Quests has 22 more def and 50% more ap. U dont even need to look at the rest lol

    While i dont like units getting free antis, bacon may seriously need it, afterall they dual wield
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  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    yst said:

    Just buff those other bacons.

    Savork bacons biguns r absolute trash, just have a look how much the same cost questing knights are.

    Questing knights $1100
    80 armor
    75 ld
    75 speed
    40 att
    36 def
    12 dmg 36 ap
    41 charge

    Savork bacons $1100
    15% more hp
    25 armor 25% phy resists(equates 35 armor or so)
    68 ld
    66 speed
    28 att
    14 def (LOLLLLLLLL)
    12 dmg 24 ap
    60 charge
    Frenzy

    Quests has 22 more def and 50% more ap. U dont even need to look at the rest lol

    While i dont like units getting free antis, bacon may seriously need it, afterall they dual wield

    Yea his illustrates it well. There is literally no reason to take them. You’re so much better off with any of their other cav
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Registered Users Posts: 122
    They would be balanced if factions were locked in before being paired with an opponent. Right now it's
    1) pick gs
    2) opponent picks VC
    3) lose
    4) repeat

    My last MP session saw 4 opponents switch from whatever faction they were going to play to VC as soon as I picked GS. One guy took manfred, two terrogeists, 2 mortis engine things and a bunch of zombies. I got ganked immediately and the engines just kited my biguns while I got terror bombed from the sky. Maybe you guys don't have balance wishes but having such an unbalanced matchup makes gs bad since your opponent can pick that matchup 100% of the time. GS needs spear chukas. They could put pressure on flyers and things like mortis engines.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    The problem for the GS is they are the only faction that don’t have an answer to all possible strategies.

    If you go heavy on large terror units, they just don’t have an answer. Their only anti large unit gets terror routed and dosnt have ap

    All the other factions have cheap anti large chaff that can be backed up with melee heroes and/ or have anti large elite units
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,105
    Theo91 said:

    The problem for the GS is they are the only faction that don’t have an answer to all possible strategies.

    If you go heavy on large terror units, they just don’t have an answer. Their only anti large unit gets terror routed and dosnt have ap

    All the other factions have cheap anti large chaff that can be backed up with melee heroes and/ or have anti large elite units

    Boar Boy Big Un's are anti large that provide AP. As for the VC orc arrer boyz are good when combined with rusty arrerz and azhag (soulblight and spirit leech) you can burn monsters down pretty quickly. I have used it on various single entity builds and it worked very well.

    There are however some cheese builds people will bring that can grief quick battle. Other than that the greenskins are a good MP faction.

  • JedifortnerJedifortner Registered Users Posts: 229

    Theo91 said:

    The problem for the GS is they are the only faction that don’t have an answer to all possible strategies.

    If you go heavy on large terror units, they just don’t have an answer. Their only anti large unit gets terror routed and dosnt have ap

    All the other factions have cheap anti large chaff that can be backed up with melee heroes and/ or have anti large elite units

    Boar Boy Big Un's are anti large that provide AP. As for the VC orc arrer boyz are good when combined with rusty arrerz and azhag (soulblight and spirit leech) you can burn monsters down pretty quickly. I have used it on various single entity builds and it worked very well.

    There are however some cheese builds people will bring that can grief quick battle. Other than that the greenskins are a good MP faction.

    Agreed for the most part but if you lose any of those key units(arrerz) your chances go down dramatically. Especially since zombie summons can come from multiple angles. And if VC bring two terrorgeist and a mortis engine you won't have DPS to put them all. down fast enough.
    It's one of the toughest MU in the game.
    Orc hero's with BvL would add some nice counters.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,134
    Also, most VC players will bring death magic against the GS. Combine fob with a couple of zombie summons and you can annihilate boar boy biguns or a arrers or both very quickly.

    Not many people are gonna bring several boar boy big un units and it’s easy to use the summons to shut down back line support
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,626
    edited July 2018
    Theo91 said:

    Not many people are gonna bring several boar boy big un units and it’s easy to use the summons to shut down back line support

    Then bring more, all 7 of them and see if uve monster problem. U still got 5k to play with, plenty baby orks and gobbis to play with.

    2 terror + lord on terror itself is $7k, match it with ur own $7k bacons
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  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    edited July 2018
    Theo91 said:

    Also, most VC players will bring death magic against the GS. Combine fob with a couple of zombie summons and you can annihilate boar boy biguns or a arrers or both very quickly.

    Not many people are gonna bring several boar boy big un units and it’s easy to use the summons to shut down back line support

    22 WoM for BBBU, that has low MA/Armor is waste, in fact it is trade that favors Greenskins. Current Blood Knights are Chosen analog among elite schock cav, they put every other non-monstrous cav in trash can. Coupled with wolves/bats and with superior speed, they can dictate time and place of engagement, and they literaly rape BBBU on charge. Even double funds per engagement ( 2xBBBUvs1xBlood Knights ) is unfavorable against expirienced VC player, because standart zombie summon allows easy way of blocking charge/save retreat, because zombie have " heavy " weight attribute in hidden stats ( most part of fodder has " light " ), they are unusualy good at blocking/swarming targets. Combine it with healing and cheap screen - and Blood Knights will crush your cav and then they will beat large part of your infantry with help of cheap fodder. Problem is that VC are natural counter of Greenskins - durable due healing and can take punishment, very mobile, easily deny your mobility aspect, army wide fear/terror, unchallenged in air and on top of that - Curse of Years, wich is really dedicated anti-Orc spell with it cooldown trait wich screws your Waagh. This MU can be helped, but it will be hard until you nerf Vampires to the ground, wich is unfair and not fun.
    Buff BBBU slightly either with stats or with price drop, decrease cost of Giants by 100 for Greenies, -100 $ for regular BigUns - should help.
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