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Total Brohammer's Greenskins Review and Discussion!

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  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 361Registered Users
    I'm surprised that the effigy of the git+foot of gork and nasty skulkers counters that greenskins use against other elite cav wouldn't work against blood knights.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,192Registered Users

    I'm surprised that the effigy of the git+foot of gork and nasty skulkers counters that greenskins use against other elite cav wouldn't work against blood knights.

    They have high def for a cav. Orks already have low att.
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  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 361Registered Users
    yst said:

    I'm surprised that the effigy of the git+foot of gork and nasty skulkers counters that greenskins use against other elite cav wouldn't work against blood knights.

    They have high def for a cav. Orks already have low att.
    No higher than dragon princes with martial mastery active and blood knights don't have physical resistance on them to mitigate AP either. Between ere we go/fist of gork, bonewood staff, and waaagh etc, it certainly doesn't seem like greenskins have trouble hitting other elite cav. So it's a bit odd that blood knights are uniquely a problem.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,083Registered Users

    yst said:

    I'm surprised that the effigy of the git+foot of gork and nasty skulkers counters that greenskins use against other elite cav wouldn't work against blood knights.

    They have high def for a cav. Orks already have low att.
    No higher than dragon princes with martial mastery active and blood knights don't have physical resistance on them to mitigate AP either. Between ere we go/fist of gork, bonewood staff, and waaagh etc, it certainly doesn't seem like greenskins have trouble hitting other elite cav. So it's a bit odd that blood knights are uniquely a problem.
    I didnt said that BK are unbeatable and greenskins have no chance. They are just part of whole VC roster, wich has some trump cards that are especialy good vs Orcs.
    * you want net ? Than you have only one option - Wuurzag. And he is prone to sniping
    * Curse of years is great at blocking spells and, specificly, Waagh. So your Stomping plan can be countered, and if you brought Wuurzag, than he is forced to engage in melee, wich is dangerous.Cooldown forcing, remember ?
    * BK are perfectly balanced in total, but in this specific MU they are shine due some holes in GS roster. No AP missiles, no AP/AL infantry, no specific AL monsters, hard to win cav engagemengs, infantry centered armies while BK are both capeable in beating monsters and infantry on charge. Theynare like DE Warlocks vs WE stuff.
    Other things I mentioned in previous post. VC vs GS is like Dawi vs TK or Bret vs HE. I really worry because I think that current VC are mostly well balanced, and I hope that greenskins can recive some help without nerfing VC, because Vampires can beat any faction without being autowin option.
    To be honest, I cant claim that my thoughts are perfect. It will be good if Slade X or glosskilos will post their ideas/feedback.
  • JedifortnerJedifortner Posts: 229Registered Users

    I'm surprised that the effigy of the git+foot of gork and nasty skulkers counters that greenskins use against other elite cav wouldn't work against blood knights.

    It's not BK alone. It's healing, wolves, bats,zombie summons, and terror routing.

    The fear and terror favoring VC is nice for the asymmetry aspect, but GS needing to dedicate so much to have even a chance in this cav fight is a little much.
    If they buffed Savage orc boar biguns with MD and AL maybe they could fill a hole in this match up. They still have freenzy correct? Immune to psyc would help with terror routs.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 441Registered Users
    melee cooldown forcing seems a real issue for GS, I don't think delay spells were thought to work that way
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,083Registered Users

    melee cooldown forcing seems a real issue for GS, I don't think delay spells were thought to work that way

    Nope It works like intended. Problem is that until now it was specific issue with some special units and it wasnt critical for entire general balance. But now Waagh is literaly GS special battle mechanic, Like Realm of Souls or Murderous Prowess. It is like if you have ability to turn off Martial prowess for entire HE army. You can negate major part of GS dmg potential in line clash and you easily dictate your will to your opponent by forcing his lord into melee. Maybe, waagh can recieve regular cooldown.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Posts: 931Registered Users


    * you want net ? Than you have only one option - Wuurzag. And he is prone to sniping

    Tormentor sword on night goblin warboss
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,083Registered Users


    * you want net ? Than you have only one option - Wuurzag. And he is prone to sniping

    Tormentor sword on night goblin warboss
    Ha, really ! Remembered right after the post. Problem is that I use only bunch of lords and I play MP occasonaly, so I cant name every item option for many Lords I skip. Thanks for reminding ! It is shame, because it was in game since relise of ME.
    Still, if we consider this fact, you still need Lord+Big Waagh caster for insta killing cav, and you must engage your lord in melee.
    Also, isnt this item recharged in melee ? Curse of years problem still here in this case ?
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    In the last patch i would have said that lizardmen or tomb kings would be greenskins hardest matchup, but now its once again vampire counts. This matchup is a nightmare for greenskins; ive managed some wins in it, but my opponents didnt seem to know what they were doing in those games. Against an experienced VC player it feels like an auto loss.

    The cav battle is prettymuch impossible, unless you can get a foot of gork when your opponent isnt paying attention. Wurzhag can use effigy and foot, but odds are a good player is not going to blob his cav enough for it to kill the unit, and then they can just heal with invocation. Blood knights are tanky enough to weather out the waaagh also, and VC can just tie down the bbbu with zombies and then pull out and charge again with the blood knights.

    Another issue an manfred on a hellsteed spamming spirit leech. Its prettymuch impossible to defend against it. You can net hin with effigy, but unless you brought a crapload of missiles youre not going to be able to put a significant dent in him, and bringing a crapload of missiles is a bad idea for other reasons.

    ...which leads me to missiles. Trying to win with firepower is nearly impossible as well, because vampires excel at shutting down missile units, in my experience. Yet you need them to deal with the mortis engine, among other things. Missile cav doesnt work well either, as the ME can regenerate through their lower damage output, and vampires can easily zone them out with a variety of units.

    So really im looking for help with this matchup like most people. All the other matchups ive had no issue with since the new patch, only this one.

    As for the cooldown block issue, ill say what i said when i posted about how arcane unforging can do this. I think waaagh should still charge in melee, but any extra cooldown from a spell or ability should be able to recharge when not in melee. However, i dont think this would really change much in regards to the VC matchup.
  • JedifortnerJedifortner Posts: 229Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    Maybe add +3-4 AP to Savage orc arrer boys. They pretty useless at the moment. It would be nice to have some dedicated AP missiles. A price increase would justify this or maybe range decrease.
    Post edited by Jedifortner on
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    In WH1 Migsaa and I had some success vs VC with GS against some of the very best players - and it was considered 'unwinnable' back then too.

    The build that worked for me (his was more missile heavy with no giant iirc) was something like Azhag on wyvern with leech, 2 bosses on foot, 3 BO, 2 big'uns, 1 giant, 2 orc arrers, morgrubs and 4 spider rider archers.

    I don't really play GS much in WH2, as I have too much fun with Skaven, BM and Chaos, but that build should still work. Wurrzag - like pretty much all GS lords except Azhag - shouldn't ever be taken vs a faction capable of aerial spirit leeching like VC. Azhag is fast and you can bait VC flyers into your missiles. Yeah, your missiles can be shut down by direwolves but most VC will only bring the one RoR unit as its amazing vs BBBU and regular wolves are pants.

    It isn't ever a good idea to contest cav with VC, BK will just wreck you. BO and giant smash BKs just fine though (don't let giant get surrounded). Giants and big'uns aren't quite as good in WH2, but BO, orc arrers and spider archers are slightly better imo. Put your foot bosses on crypt horrors and they should still kill one every 2nd swing, they are also very cost effective vs banshees. If you mount them BKs will shrek them, which is why I would keep on foot, so cheap at 300 ea.

    Biggest problem is Mannfred on dragon having nearly 2k more HP in WH2 so he can easily win a leech war vs Azhag (plus breaths!). There again, that setup also costs like 1k more than in WH1 (if he's bringing Curse as well) and your missiles can really put some hurt on him, especially if he lands.

    I think if VC expects this build they can beat it, but otherwise it would still pose a threat I think.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,083Registered Users
    Riggsen said:

    In WH1 Migsaa and I had some success vs VC with GS against some of the very best players - and it was considered 'unwinnable' back then too.

    The build that worked for me (his was more missile heavy with no giant iirc) was something like Azhag on wyvern with leech, 2 bosses on foot, 3 BO, 2 big'uns, 1 giant, 2 orc arrers, morgrubs and 4 spider rider archers.

    I don't really play GS much in WH2, as I have too much fun with Skaven, BM and Chaos, but that build should still work. Wurrzag - like pretty much all GS lords except Azhag - shouldn't ever be taken vs a faction capable of aerial spirit leeching like VC. Azhag is fast and you can bait VC flyers into your missiles. Yeah, your missiles can be shut down by direwolves but most VC will only bring the one RoR unit as its amazing vs BBBU and regular wolves are pants.

    It isn't ever a good idea to contest cav with VC, BK will just wreck you. BO and giant smash BKs just fine though (don't let giant get surrounded). Giants and big'uns aren't quite as good in WH2, but BO, orc arrers and spider archers are slightly better imo. Put your foot bosses on crypt horrors and they should still kill one every 2nd swing, they are also very cost effective vs banshees. If you mount them BKs will shrek them, which is why I would keep on foot, so cheap at 300 ea.

    Biggest problem is Mannfred on dragon having nearly 2k more HP in WH2 so he can easily win a leech war vs Azhag (plus breaths!). There again, that setup also costs like 1k more than in WH1 (if he's bringing Curse as well) and your missiles can really put some hurt on him, especially if he lands.

    I think if VC expects this build they can beat it, but otherwise it would still pose a threat I think.

    I still think that GS can recieve - 50$ for BBBU ( or slight buff to their stats ), -50 or - 75 $ for regular BigUns, - 100 for Giants. It should work well. What do you think.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 1,011Registered Users
    Its a tough one. Savage orc bbu are so trash that they need a huge buff to make them viable. They should be priced at 900 or maybe even less in their current state
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    @ViktorTWWforum yeah I think +2-4 MA/MD for pretty much all boar boyz is needed. And -50 for big'uns and -100 for giants is also reasonable.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,083Registered Users
    Riggsen said:

    @ViktorTWWforum yeah I think +2-4 MA/MD for pretty much all boar boyz is needed. And -50 for big'uns and -100 for giants is also reasonable.

    Thanks for support. I am afraid of nerfs for VC in next patch because of this MU. It will be bad, because in other cases VC reasonably strong, but arent OP. I hope that this needed nerf for ME and those sweet buffs to other units will help Vampires hold their place in middle ground. I heard that some players think that Blood Knights are overbuffed, but I disagree. I feel like they perfome accordinglynto the price now. Maybe, slight nerfs for healing, if neede. Units are in sweet spot now.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users

    Riggsen said:

    @ViktorTWWforum yeah I think +2-4 MA/MD for pretty much all boar boyz is needed. And -50 for big'uns and -100 for giants is also reasonable.

    Thanks for support. I am afraid of nerfs for VC in next patch because of this MU. It will be bad, because in other cases VC reasonably strong, but arent OP. I hope that this needed nerf for ME and those sweet buffs to other units will help Vampires hold their place in middle ground. I heard that some players think that Blood Knights are overbuffed, but I disagree. I feel like they perfome accordinglynto the price now. Maybe, slight nerfs for healing, if neede. Units are in sweet spot now.
    I doubt it, i dont think its fair to nerf a faction because of one matchup, better to buff greenskins in ways that help them in the matchup.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    Last game i played in this matchup i got wrecked by a build that goes something like this;

    Mannfred on dragon
    Terrorgheist
    Devils of swarzhafen+1vargheist
    2 or 3 fellbats
    2 blood knights
    A bunch of cheap skeletons for infantry

    I dont remember the rest of the build but that should give an idea. It may have had direwolves too.

    How would you deal with a build like this as greenskins?
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,083Registered Users

    Last game i played in this matchup i got wrecked by a build that goes something like this;

    Mannfred on dragon
    Terrorgheist
    Devils of swarzhafen+1vargheist
    2 or 3 fellbats
    2 blood knights
    A bunch of cheap skeletons for infantry

    I dont remember the rest of the build but that should give an idea. It may have had direwolves too.

    How would you deal with a build like this as greenskins?

    What units did you used ? Was your army outpicked badly or you could win with it ?
    And if you ask about VC army... First of all, it has strong Terror combination, and I think that Manny had Doom&Darkness spell, right ? Combine it with spirit leech spam against general and you have classic Terror-bombing.Also, it has very heavy antilarge squad - so it is risky to go with monster mash.Did your opponent tried Fate of Bjuna ? Personally I think it is meh spell in this MU because BO for 1150 and ROR BBBUnfor 1350(?) are most expencive unit that can be Bjuna-trashed, and 22 WoM is to expencive for this. Also, this army has such mobility that it is hard to protect your range. There is no Mortis Engine, so vamps cant play attrition game, this composition is more suited for sniping/rush.
    I think Wurzaag with heavy squad of BBBUs and frontline of savage orcs/skulkerz can work. Range will be hardly useable againt such amount of mobile units. Skellies will crumble in seconds so you dont need to go heavy on BO hammer line. Wurzaag's net will be useful against expencive units to pin them down.Regular Big Uns also can be useful. Main problem that Manny can just spam spirit leech->you need range to cause preassure on him, but with all this bats/vargheists/tg/cav it is easily shuted down.
    Orcs are excellent in rush, but unlike Dawi they cant turtle around cannons.
    Wurzaag or Night Goblin Warboss with tormentor sword + skulkerz bombs + BBBUs and usual Big Uns... I dont know, it is better to hear someone with better knowledge of GS.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,083Registered Users
    Wait, I just tried to emulate this army, and it has less than 2000 for infantry line without bats( even less with chaff ). You can go full with BO/sculkerz and hammer of gork to shoot at manny. BO can chop all this to pieces with bomb debuff.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,985Registered Users
    edited July 2018

    Last game i played in this matchup i got wrecked by a build that goes something like this;

    Mannfred on dragon
    Terrorgheist
    Devils of swarzhafen+1vargheist
    2 or 3 fellbats
    2 blood knights
    A bunch of cheap skeletons for infantry

    I dont remember the rest of the build but that should give an idea. It may have had direwolves too.

    How would you deal with a build like this as greenskins?

    I prefer azhag on foot for spirit leech and soulblight.

    4 BBBU for anti large (won the cavalry fight)

    4 missile infantry. One needs to be rusty arrerz. I can't remember if I used orcs or goblins for the other three.

    Two night goblins and two skulkers. These guard your missile infantry. Cant remember for sure if i had more.

    Infantry line was big uns but i think i could have won just by using orc boyz or even night goblins. Greenskin infantry is solid.

    And I won.

  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    edited July 2018

    Last game i played in this matchup i got wrecked by a build that goes something like this;

    Mannfred on dragon
    Terrorgheist
    Devils of swarzhafen+1vargheist
    2 or 3 fellbats
    2 blood knights
    A bunch of cheap skeletons for infantry

    I dont remember the rest of the build but that should give an idea. It may have had direwolves too.

    How would you deal with a build like this as greenskins?

    I prefer azhag on foot for spirit leech and soulblight.

    4 BBBU for anti large (won the cavalry fight)

    4 missile infantry. One needs to be rusty arrerz. I can't remember if I used orcs or goblins for the other three.

    Two night goblins and two skulkers. These guard your missile infantry. Cant remember for sure if i had more.

    Infantry line was big uns but i think i could have won just by using orc boyz or even night goblins. Greenskin infantry is solid.

    And I won.

    Yeah, if i knew that kind of VC build was coming id bring something like this, maybe wurzhag instead not sure though. Expecting a more conventional VC build however i invested a lot more in my infantry line than i needed to with black orcs a savage big uns, brought rusty arrers and 2 orc arrer boyz, i think 2 nasty skulkers for the backline, and broken tusk mob. i forget what the rest of the build was as i made it up during army selection.

    In hindsight i didnt need a strong infantry line and should have invested more in anti large and backline protection.

    I dont think manfred used fate of bjuna, it mainly looked like he used spirit leech, invocation, and raise dead.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 1,011Registered Users
    .

    I doubt it, i dont think its fair to nerf a faction because of one matchup, better to buff greenskins in ways that help them in the matchup.

    Yea for sure. VC are fine, the GS just not to deal with terror builds and single large units better
  • saellsaell Posts: 471Registered Users
    Yeah thta way they will get some new heroes maybe
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 1,011Registered Users
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