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Family members and heirs starting new political parties.

JeanLucPicardJeanLucPicard Registered Users Posts: 19
edited August 2018 in Ancestral Update Support
So Ptolemy XV, son of Cleopatra and Caesar, direct heir to Rome and Egypt, suddenly decided he doesn't want any of that and also wants to be Parthian for some reason.


This really feels awful on so many levels.

Your own generals leaving to form new political parties was ok before the family tree when they were all generic "thugs for hire" but it doesn't work anymore imo, at the very least not for heirs. Even the non-heir "blood of your blood" family members suddenly leaving feels bad but is not unthinkable I guess.

Ideally it'd be nice if new parties generated their own new characters but if the upstart party leaders must come from your own party please have the game prioritize non-family party members (the ones in the right column) or at the very least exclude the heirs.

Overall great update and I love that Cleo and Anthony can now actually marry each other even if they're not producing any children (but maybe that's because they already had 4 between them at the time of marriage).

Comments

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,795
    I actually don't mind that at all. Shows that familial ties are no insulation against a hunger for power.

  • happycompyhappycompy Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 355

    I actually don't mind that at all. Shows that familial ties are no insulation against a hunger for power.

    Agreed.
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  • JeanLucPicardJeanLucPicard Registered Users Posts: 19
    edited August 2018
    So why would an heir trade their power for much less power? Especially one like Caesarion? Having an angry ambitious disinherited ex-heir join another faction would make sense, this is just arbitrary.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,795

    So why would an heir trade their power for much less power? Especially one like Caesarion? Having an angry ambitious disinherited ex-heir join another faction would make sense, this is just arbitrary.

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739
    Look at the conflicts between Czar Peter the Great and his son or between King Friedrich the Great of Prussia and his father.

    Or Heinrich IV of HRE and his son Heinrich V. The latter one rebelled successfully against his father.

    Parthian Family means Parthian Nobles. Your heir is seeking a new power base.
  • JeanLucPicardJeanLucPicard Registered Users Posts: 19

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Caesarion was a Ptolemy with the blood of Caesar in him guaranteed to inherit Egypt. Now he's a nobody who'll get nothing and will get murdered if he tries anything. An actual power hungry person would've stayed the course (you know, to get the power) unless something changes.

    Yes, royal families fight and rebel against each other. If there's a good reason. There's no reason here.
  • RafSwi7RafSwi7 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,971
    I agree with you, that heirs should not form their own parties. Other family members shoud be allowed to do so.

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  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,795

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Caesarion was a Ptolemy with the blood of Caesar in him guaranteed to inherit Egypt. Now he's a nobody who'll get nothing and will get murdered if he tries anything. An actual power hungry person would've stayed the course (you know, to get the power) unless something changes.

    Yes, royal families fight and rebel against each other. If there's a good reason. There's no reason here.
    I guess you haven't read much about how the Ptolemeians handled family business (as in, at the tip of a knife). That's literally the last dynasty were you could clamor for blood over power.

  • slapnut1207slapnut1207 Registered Users Posts: 678

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Caesarion was a Ptolemy with the blood of Caesar in him guaranteed to inherit Egypt. Now he's a nobody who'll get nothing and will get murdered if he tries anything. An actual power hungry person would've stayed the course (you know, to get the power) unless something changes.

    Yes, royal families fight and rebel against each other. If there's a good reason. There's no reason here.
    I guess you haven't read much about how the Ptolemeians handled family business (as in, at the tip of a knife). That's literally the last dynasty were you could clamor for blood over power.
    But why would he start a new political party? It would be more likely if he simply waited to become the head of his family.
    In Hoc Signo Vinces

  • the_real_weedthe_real_weed Member Registered Users Posts: 243

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Caesarion was a Ptolemy with the blood of Caesar in him guaranteed to inherit Egypt. Now he's a nobody who'll get nothing and will get murdered if he tries anything. An actual power hungry person would've stayed the course (you know, to get the power) unless something changes.

    Yes, royal families fight and rebel against each other. If there's a good reason. There's no reason here.
    I guess you haven't read much about how the Ptolemeians handled family business (as in, at the tip of a knife). That's literally the last dynasty were you could clamor for blood over power.
    But why would he start a new political party? It would be more likely if he simply waited to become the head of his family.
    Or maybe just create a intrigue where he tries to kill his father / uncle (faction leader)
  • slapnut1207slapnut1207 Registered Users Posts: 678
    edited August 2018

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Caesarion was a Ptolemy with the blood of Caesar in him guaranteed to inherit Egypt. Now he's a nobody who'll get nothing and will get murdered if he tries anything. An actual power hungry person would've stayed the course (you know, to get the power) unless something changes.

    Yes, royal families fight and rebel against each other. If there's a good reason. There's no reason here.
    I guess you haven't read much about how the Ptolemeians handled family business (as in, at the tip of a knife). That's literally the last dynasty were you could clamor for blood over power.
    But why would he start a new political party? It would be more likely if he simply waited to become the head of his family.
    Or maybe just create a intrigue where he tries to kill his father / uncle (faction leader)
    I don't think his uncle was alive when he was old enough, right? I will check....
    In Hoc Signo Vinces

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,795

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Caesarion was a Ptolemy with the blood of Caesar in him guaranteed to inherit Egypt. Now he's a nobody who'll get nothing and will get murdered if he tries anything. An actual power hungry person would've stayed the course (you know, to get the power) unless something changes.

    Yes, royal families fight and rebel against each other. If there's a good reason. There's no reason here.
    I guess you haven't read much about how the Ptolemeians handled family business (as in, at the tip of a knife). That's literally the last dynasty were you could clamor for blood over power.
    But why would he start a new political party? It would be more likely if he simply waited to become the head of his family.
    Why not? The head of the family could at any moment disinherit him or send him off somewhere to die.

  • VeniVediWikiVeniVediWiki Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 34
    edited August 2018



    Why not? The head of the family could at any moment disinherit him or send him off somewhere to die.



    Absolutely. This is for once a deep and realistic mechanism. I also don't mind it and I prefer this kind of event to remote dilemnas which are just randomly put on top of the politic system to create an illusion of depth. Beside Heirs have often been manipulated by factions and used as instruments against the throne.

  • JeanLucPicardJeanLucPicard Registered Users Posts: 19
    edited August 2018



    Why not? The head of the family could at any moment disinherit him or send him off somewhere to die.

    By this logic everyone should always betray their family. Anything *could* happen but unless it does or there's a strong indication that it will abandoning a strong position for a much weaker one and making yourself a target makes no sense.

    If he got disinherited sure, I'd buy it.

  • slapnut1207slapnut1207 Registered Users Posts: 678

    How's it less power when you suddenly have a new faction that could secede and fight against you? Again, familial ties have almost never overwritten a lust for power.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Caesarion was a Ptolemy with the blood of Caesar in him guaranteed to inherit Egypt. Now he's a nobody who'll get nothing and will get murdered if he tries anything. An actual power hungry person would've stayed the course (you know, to get the power) unless something changes.

    Yes, royal families fight and rebel against each other. If there's a good reason. There's no reason here.
    I guess you haven't read much about how the Ptolemeians handled family business (as in, at the tip of a knife). That's literally the last dynasty were you could clamor for blood over power.
    But why would he start a new political party? It would be more likely if he simply waited to become the head of his family.
    Why not? The head of the family could at any moment disinherit him or send him off somewhere to die.
    But it's not realistic if the head of the family doesn't disinherit him. The other option which is to murder the son would not allow the son to of course start a political party. The disinherit son would probably start secretly plotting against him if he really was furious, it would be unrealistic for him to start a party known to the public unless if he wanted a warrant for his death.

    In Hoc Signo Vinces

  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739
    edited August 2018
    Its not unrealistic. Look at the Seleucids after Antiochus IV Epihanes. They all fight against each other with their own party supporters. Blood didn´t mattered in this time. And Caesarion must fear to be replaced by a son of Marc Anton and Cleo.
  • JeanLucPicardJeanLucPicard Registered Users Posts: 19
    edited August 2018


    And Caesarion must fear to be replaced by a son of Marc Anton and Cleo.

    There is no another son. Other children are all Anthony's from before the marriage. Caesarion is Cleo's only child and she went through great lengths to keep him alive and place him in power.

    And it'd still make no sense, there has to be a reason for conflict. Otherwise every country would be in a constant state of civil war. From his position as heir Caesarion rebels against his mother who dedicated her life to making him the leader of Egypt and Rome because he'd rather be Indian/Carthaginian/Parthian/Jewish depending on the dice roll. Screw you mom indeed.

    Not to mention I can have him assassinated immediately so Caesarion's new party lasts less than a turn. Also the spouse traits get rerolled. Did I mention how stupid this whole situation is?

    If nothing else I'd really like to know if devs intended this.
  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739
    Ptolemaics were in a constant state of civil war since Ptolemaios VI.

    Cleo fighted with her sister and her brothers about the ptolemaic throne.

    "Indian/Carthaginian/Parthian/Jewish" means Indian/Carthaginian/Parthian/Jewish supported Party. At least in my historical based understanding.
  • HeinzuHeinzu Registered Users Posts: 927
    Heirs should not be allowed to form new parties without having good reason for it. Losing everything to gain nothing doesn't make sence. Heirs should be able to form new political party only under certain circumstances ( losing wars, food shortage, negative income....).
  • slapnut1207slapnut1207 Registered Users Posts: 678
    edited August 2018

    Its not unrealistic. Look at the Seleucids after Antiochus IV Epihanes. They all fight against each other with their own party supporters. Blood didn´t mattered in this time. And Caesarion must fear to be replaced by a son of Marc Anton and Cleo.

    Did Caesarian even have supporters that would be willing to revolt or assassinate Cleopatra and Marcus Antonius? Antonius had the support of Roman Legions.

    In Hoc Signo Vinces

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,795
    Please no dumbing the game down by giving the player a 100% loyal family.

  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739

    Please no dumbing the game down by giving the player a 100% loyal family.

    I second this.
  • slapnut1207slapnut1207 Registered Users Posts: 678

    Please no dumbing the game down by giving the player a 100% loyal family.

    But it needs to be realistic and unlikely to happen unless you make some really bad mistake.
    In Hoc Signo Vinces

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,795
    edited August 2018

    Please no dumbing the game down by giving the player a 100% loyal family.

    But it needs to be realistic and unlikely to happen unless you make some really bad mistake.
    Nope, it should not be 100% predictable. That just invites extreme cheese to avoid it. Politics in RL have never been exactly rational and predictable and so they should carry a smidgen of randomness here too. Politics should not be a boring game of "just do this to avoid that".

    Alexander had his father killed despite being the heir because he was afraid he could be disinherited, so it fits.

  • slapnut1207slapnut1207 Registered Users Posts: 678
    edited August 2018

    Please no dumbing the game down by giving the player a 100% loyal family.

    But it needs to be realistic and unlikely to happen unless you make some really bad mistake.
    Nope, it should not be 100% predictable. That just invites extreme cheese to avoid it. Politics in RL have never been exactly rational and predictable and so they should carry a smidgen of randomness here too. Politics should not be a boring game of "just do this to avoid that".

    Alexander had his father killed despite being the heir because he was afraid he could be disinherited, so it fits.
    Did I say it should be one hundred percent predictable? Politics usually is a game of doing the correct things or at least doing something you thing would work. For example, giving your sons governorships, other positions and etc. Or starting a purge of your own dynasty because you are paranoid. I don’t think we know for sure if Alexander got his father assassinated.

    In Hoc Signo Vinces

  • BoicoteBoicote Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 806
    edited August 2018

    Please no dumbing the game down by giving the player a 100% loyal family.

    But it needs to be realistic and unlikely to happen unless you make some really bad mistake.
    Nope, it should not be 100% predictable.
    That's exactly the problem. The system IS predictable. When you increase your imperium level, the game needs to create a new party and it ALWAYS chooses the heir to the throne to lead that party. It would make more sense if the system chooses another character from the family who is vying for power.


    Post edited by Boicote on
  • HeinzuHeinzu Registered Users Posts: 927

    Please no dumbing the game down by giving the player a 100% loyal family.

    But it needs to be realistic and unlikely to happen unless you make some really bad mistake.
    Nope, it should not be 100% predictable. That just invites extreme cheese to avoid it. Politics in RL have never been exactly rational and predictable and so they should carry a smidgen of randomness here too. Politics should not be a boring game of "just do this to avoid that".

    Alexander had his father killed despite being the heir because he was afraid he could be disinherited, so it fits.
    Right now it is 100% predictable. Faction heir with high gravitas will "always" create his own party until there are maximum political parties. It's very easy to predict who will betray you. There is almost zero randomness.
  • MarcusIuniusBrutusMarcusIuniusBrutus Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 1,739
    edited August 2018
    Pre-Ancestral it was a random character from any existing party with high gravitas.

    I think, if you only promote your family/heir the system will automatically chose your heir because he is the only one with high gravitas.

    Perhaps you can avoid it by simple pushing other parties.

    Its surely not intended that they only have 2 members and no one is even general in the screenshots.
  • HeinzuHeinzu Registered Users Posts: 927
    Family tree and political parties will not work reastically without personal loyalty system. High loyalty should prevent adoptions and betrayals meanwhile low loyalty should do opposite. Loyalty should be randomly generated for each character and heirs should recieve bonus. Assasinations of own family members should give massive penalties to prevent extermination of disloyal family members. This would add some randomness because current family tree and politics are almost 100% predictable and adoptions are overpowered.
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