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Allegiance Update Beta 2

CA_EllaCA_Ella Posts: 320Registered Users, Moderators, Administrators, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff, Community Team
edited August 2018 in General Discussion


We've updated the Allegiance Update Beta!

Take a look at what we've added and tweaked, including Decrees and some mechanics changes.

If you haven't already opted in to the Allegiance Update Beta, now's the time!

For the full breakdown, head over to the blog: https://www.totalwar.com/blog/allegiance-update-beta-2
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Comments

  • Total_War_VeteranTotal_War_Veteran Posts: 446Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    FIRST !
    and..
    I love you CA !

    NB : War fervour removed..?
    Full support for CA and CA_Ella
  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Posts: 2,501Registered Users
    Liking the look of these changes.
  • ArgonArgon Senior Member ItalyPosts: 1,489Registered Users
    edited August 2018

    FIRST !
    and..
    I love you CA !

    NB : War fervour removed..?

    yes, I like these changes, it worked in a really bad way, I hated it.

    Very good notes, I will surely jump back in this game when the update is live with the blood pack
    My favorite factions in TW titles:
    Rome 1 - House of Julii
    Medieval 2 - Milan
    Empire - England
    Napoleon - France
    Shogun 2 - Tokugawa
    Rome 2 - Macedon
    Attila - Western Roman Empire
    Warhammer - Empire (Karl Franz)
  • Total_War_VeteranTotal_War_Veteran Posts: 446Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Argon said:

    FIRST !
    and..
    I love you CA !

    NB : War fervour removed..?

    yes, I like these changes, it worked in a really bad way, I hated it.

    Very good notes, I will surely jump back in this game when the update is live with the blood pack
    I hope war weariness not be removed as well

    @CA_Ella : since the second beta is here, is it possible for the full release of this large patch (including allegiance) before late August ?
    Full support for CA and CA_Ella
  • BenjinBenjin Junior Member Posts: 256Registered Users
    Thanks for the new 3DS Max exporter for 2018!

    Currently working on a whole lot more, stay tuned.
  • MrMecHMrMecH Posts: 2,142Registered Users
    Everything seem to be better and better. Now annoying War Fervour has gone and we have cool rite system at last (feel sorry to warhammer1 races in ME).

    Thank for great patches.
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • LESAMALESAMA Member Posts: 1,164Registered Users
    CA, many thanks and great work. A complement to the whole team. This is getting better and better!
  • slapnut1207slapnut1207 Posts: 674Registered Users
    Nice changes for TOB.
    In Hoc Signo Vinces

  • tak22tak22 Senior Member Posts: 2,386Registered Users
    Is this the last/only update to the beta, or are there more planned?
  • AstraeusAstraeus Member BrittonisPosts: 360Registered Users
    I like the finer details and nuances, it is what has kept me engaged with TW for 15 years. Alas over-complexity does not always equal more fun - so many positive changes in alleg beta2 (+beta1) for sure! :) Good effort, very fitting for this saga concept. :star:

    War Fervour has been removed. We felt it did not have the desired impact, and when it was impacting campaigns it was often in opposition to mechanics like Heroism, Legitimacy etc


    I like the concept. However, having played a Gwinned fame victory I concur. The heroism-conquering bandwagon simply had to be put on hold for many years to counter the negative war fervour which made for a boring period of many, many turns. I hope a few surprise war-fervour-esque event messages pop-up for certain factions though?

    New bonuses added to the Saint building chains to make each one unique


    I like this change especially! Gives an interesting slant to long term strategic goals. :persevere:
  • PileOBonesPileOBones Posts: 25Registered Users
    I've spent today trying to get a game going as Miede.

    While the changes are interesting and make for a much more complex campaign, I do feel that they need some tweaking.

    Simply put, today has ended up being rather frustrating. First of all, the possible earning potential as Miede makes any possible use of the decrees system impossible (it is impossible to amass 5000 gold whilst desperately trying to improve food supply)..

    Secondly, since it now costs legitimacy to hold the fair (for example) rather than increasing legitimacy, it (and the other decrees) are useless until much later in the game since legitimacy drops off one point per turn, you are already nearing zero within ten turns...… By which time, it is impossible to raise a large enough army for anything other than defence (meaning that since warfare is now the only route to increase legitimacy, you're almost forced to attack irresponsibly and become embroiled in multiple wars to even keep legitimacy stable).


    The net result is having to try and field two smaller armies that are easily beaten by the AI, or have one large army and run from one side of your territory to the other playing "whack - a - mole" with invading armies. Admittedly this is extremely challenging, but is neither satisfying nor fun.


    I'm sure there may be a strategy with Miede to succeed, but I certainly haven't found it yet (though I'm going to try again this evening (yes..... I am a masochist..... and a stubborn one at that!! :) )

    I haven't tried any of the other factions yet, so the same may not apply to them and their unique campaign features.

    Regarding Miede specifically, I would suggest that slowing the rate legitimacy drops off could help while perhaps looking again at the costs involved in holding the fair and its effects possibly tweaked slightly.


    Anyway, sorry for the long ramble. Needless to say, all of the above is only my own observations and opinion. There could well be something I've been over-looking today.
  • PileOBonesPileOBones Posts: 25Registered Users
    In follow up to my previous post above:

    1. I thought the patch notes said that single unit whack a mole had been stopped? It hasn't.

    2. A single unit from Dyflin sails in, takes a port right under the nose of quarter stack of mine...…. And then proceeds to magic TWELVE half strength units out of thin air. (The province of Dyflin was under my control. Allegence was 100% Miede. Where did those units appear from?). This is a horrible mechanic. I'd suggest adding something into the game so that units can't be recruited in a village in the first turn after capturing it. This would stop both the AI and the player pulling what can only be described as a blatant exploit out of the game system.

    3. Legitimacy is absolutely impossible to keep positive. Either far more actions need to give legitimacy or the natural decay needs to be drastically slowed down or even removed completely.

    4. It seems that the game likes to throw a cascade of negative events at the player as soon as you even get close to getting your faction on an even keel. This has happened to me in twice this evening, and in all honesty it feels like either a loop in the RNG code or an absolutely horrible artificial block mechanic.
  • Jack_Lusted_CAJack_Lusted_CA Creative Assembly Brighton, UKPosts: 1,346Registered Users, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff

    FIRST !
    and..
    I love you CA !

    NB : War fervour removed..?

    Yes, we felt it too often went against mechanics like Heroism or Tribute, where once encouraged fighting battles and wars and the other didn't, which constrained the uniqueness of some factions.
    tak22 said:

    Is this the last/only update to the beta, or are there more planned?

    These are the last major changes to happen, but whether we do another update to the beta will depend on any major issues being found.

    In follow up to my previous post above:

    1. I thought the patch notes said that single unit whack a mole had been stopped? It hasn't.

    2. A single unit from Dyflin sails in, takes a port right under the nose of quarter stack of mine...…. And then proceeds to magic TWELVE half strength units out of thin air. (The province of Dyflin was under my control. Allegence was 100% Miede. Where did those units appear from?). This is a horrible mechanic. I'd suggest adding something into the game so that units can't be recruited in a village in the first turn after capturing it. This would stop both the AI and the player pulling what can only be described as a blatant exploit out of the game system.

    3. Legitimacy is absolutely impossible to keep positive. Either far more actions need to give legitimacy or the natural decay needs to be drastically slowed down or even removed completely.

    4. It seems that the game likes to throw a cascade of negative events at the player as soon as you even get close to getting your faction on an even keel. This has happened to me in twice this evening, and in all honesty it feels like either a loop in the RNG code or an absolutely horrible artificial block mechanic.

    If you had an issue of a single general attacking a settlement on a new save game please post in the feedback session and attach the save game in a zip to the post from the turn before they take the settlement.

    Both the player and AI can recruit lots of units the moment they take a settlement if they have lots of units in their recruitment pool, that is by design.

    For Legitimacy we're going to add Raiding as a way of increasing it which will tie in with the imporved raiding stance the gaelic kingdoms now get.

    One negative event can lead to others because of traits gained, but they're not given to try and block the player. Again please post in the feedback forum with a save game and a list of events you feel have happened too soon, or why you feel they've all happened at once.
    Game Director - Thrones of Britannia

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • sCorsCor Posts: 151Registered Users
    I'm not the biggest fan of the war fervor removal.

    Would it at least be possible to have some events relating to it that trigger when you are at war for too long?
  • riadachriadach Posts: 161Registered Users
    Are there any plans to link allegiance to income, recruitment pools or even recruitment cost?
  • PileOBonesPileOBones Posts: 25Registered Users
    Hi Jack_Lusted_CA


    Thanks for taking the time to read all of my ramblings! :)


    Not sure if I have a save from that game, if I do, I'll post as you suggest. Otherwise I'll keep an eye open for it happening again.


    Sorry if I came across as being negative...…. my second post was written while still very frustrated by a quick combination of points 2 and 4 in my follow up post...… I should have waited to cool down before writing. To reiterate a point from my first post, I do generally like the changes introduced by this beta.


    [quote]Both the player and AI can recruit lots of units the moment they take a settlement if they have lots of units in their recruitment pool, that is by design. [/quote]


    Thanks for the info. I'll admit I don't like it, but if by design then I 'll have to find a way to work with it. :)

    Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
  • billybob1billybob1 Posts: 44Registered Users
    Save games and load games are not showing for me at all. I have no mods installed. It's sorta unplayable, you can tell this is a beta.
    There are still references to War Fervor popping up in events, and when wife's get traits, e.g. "Chuffed to bits" when you click on the character, their husbands come up as their wife's on a main page for the wife not visible anywhere else.
    Estates are now just a random annoyance with little to tell how or why loyalty is changed by them. 3 loyalty now isn't good? Why?
    Someone upset for a random reason that you had to guess the developers added in? .. OK?
  • Jack_Lusted_CAJack_Lusted_CA Creative Assembly Brighton, UKPosts: 1,346Registered Users, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff
    If you're having problems loading save games please post the same game in the Allegiance update forum so that we can take a look at it. We've tested the current beta with saves from both the first beta, patch one, and from the release version of the game so definitely keen to see any examples of when saves don't load so we can ensure they still work.

    Same for references to War Fervour in events, please let us know where you're seeing the reference to it pop-up.

    Characters can now gain traits giving them desires for certain types or amounts of Estates, these traits are visible on their details page, and should show up as a separate factor on the loyalty breakdown.
    Game Director - Thrones of Britannia

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • OwlcoholicGamingOwlcoholicGaming Senior Member Posts: 394Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    @Jack_Lusted_CA , just wondering if we have any news on what's going on with the Assembly Kit?

    Restarted steam after the announcement and there was a patch with the full release of it. I was playing around with it for an hour or so, quit to test the pack and there was another patch which got rid of it all again. I noticed there had been a quick edit to the blog post stating you need to enter into beta for the Assembly Kit too, so I did that and it downloaded once again. Spent about 8 hours using it, went to sleep, woke up and it had reverted back to not being available. The beta branch is no longer available and the blog had been edited yet again to take out any mention of the Assembly Kit.

    I had noticed that BoB wasn't able to detect the game process so I couldn't build startpos, also the battle and campaign map editors crashed as well as the variant editor, with reports of missing files, so I assume you've taken it down to fix stuff? It would be welcoming just to know what's happening with it as myself and several other modders are eagerly awaiting the tools to start work on more ambitious mods.

    Thanks!
    He that fights and runs away, May turn and fight another Day; But he that is in Battle slain, Will never rise to fight again.
  • Jack_Lusted_CAJack_Lusted_CA Creative Assembly Brighton, UKPosts: 1,346Registered Users, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff
    With people experiencing more issues with the tools that we expected we pulled the AK beta for now until we can make sure those problems are resolved.
    Game Director - Thrones of Britannia

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • OwlcoholicGamingOwlcoholicGaming Senior Member Posts: 394Registered Users
    Okay thanks so much for the quick reply, just wanted to make sure it wasn't just a steam bug or anything like that. Hope to see it back up and running shortly! Keep up the great work
    He that fights and runs away, May turn and fight another Day; But he that is in Battle slain, Will never rise to fight again.
  • tak22tak22 Senior Member Posts: 2,386Registered Users

    In follow up to my previous post above:

    2. A single unit from Dyflin sails in, takes a port right under the nose of quarter stack of mine...…. And then proceeds to magic TWELVE half strength units out of thin air. (The province of Dyflin was under my control. Allegence was 100% Miede. Where did those units appear from?). This is a horrible mechanic. I'd suggest adding something into the game so that units can't be recruited in a village in the first turn after capturing it. This would stop both the AI and the player pulling what can only be described as a blatant exploit out of the game system.

    It is a bit immersion-breaking. It's ok, maybe, when they attack across a land border - you can imagine that the mustering soldiers are just coming from back home and catching up with the army. But especially when they sail a long distance and take what could only be called an isolated beachhead, it doesn't make sense.

    I wonder if, not for this update but maybe a future one, recruitment/replenishment could be scaled to allegiance? (a) because in a province with divided (or still hostile) loyalties, a less supportive population would be enlisting/supplying at slower rates (and could maybe hinder recruits coming from other parts of your kingdom), but also (b) as a convenient way of reflecting how easy it might be to get the necessary logistics in place. This wouldn't have to go all the way up with allegiance, but maybe if it were 100% replenishment at 25% allegiance and 100% recruitment at 50% allegiance (linear or hyperbolic scales).

    I'm just thinking about cases like Henry V's campaign in France, where they captured Harfleur but had to retreat to Calais to recover/resupply as that was an established English base. Several centuries later, so one would think that if anything logistics would have improved by then ...

    tak22 said:

    Is this the last/only update to the beta, or are there more planned?

    These are the last major changes to happen, but whether we do another update to the beta will depend on any major issues being found.

    Yes that's what I was asking. Thanks!
  • billybob1billybob1 Posts: 44Registered Users
    Thanks for the reply. Regarding the saves, the thing is I can't see any of the saves since I opted in to the beta. Only "auto_save" is visible. If I try to save twice with the same name (saves that will disappear) it says the file already exists, so something is being saved, I just can't even see to read any save back, other than ones before the beta. I will try to find the files though and upload them in the Allegiance update forum.

    Regarding Estates and their related traits, this is what I make of them (they may need more information so they can be understood) -

    "Estates Shmestates" (no loyalty penalty for estates - you can remove any and all estates for no penalty) - can't find the exact wording now but this is easy enough to understand. But why did this trait get assigned?

    "Less than king" - easy enough to understand, for some reason they want less estates than the king. But why did this trait get assigned?

    "Somewhat influential" - wants to have +2 Estates, easy enough to understand, I assume it means exactly 2. But why did this trait get assigned?

    "Annoyed, Ownership of property should come with age - the young no nothing of tenants and stipends" - Which character being younger triggered this trait? How can it be mitigated? Can it be mitigated?

    "Jealous - Does he want to sit on this throne?!" - invites the player to have the king... sit .. on his throne. Does this really mean the character will have a loyalty penalty when the king is not stationed in his royal throne town.. sitting on the throne?? Why did this even happen, what made them "Jealous"? Why does he care if the king is "sitting on his throne"?

    "Disloyal - This man has been passed over so many times it has caused deep resentment - gained from lower than 3 loyalty". Is this just a random assignment that can happen to any character lower than 3 loyalty? is it referring to being passed over in the handing out of estates? Can this trait be removed, and how?

    "Hurt pride - this man feels that less worthy individuals have stolen the match from under him" - does this mean less worthy in age, in influence, in character rank, in number of estates.. and have been given more influence, more character rank, or more estates?

    "Free spirit, -1 Loyalty from having estates" - simple enough, he loses 1 loyalty if he has any estates.


    I forgot where I saw the War Fervour mention in an event, but it was when playing West Seaxe.
  • Total_War_VeteranTotal_War_Veteran Posts: 446Registered Users
    @Jack_Lusted_CA : But War Weariness is still there right ?
    Full support for CA and CA_Ella
  • dbmal27dbmal27 Posts: 2Registered Users
    These changes sound like great improvements to the game; however, does the removal of war fervour mean that the two achievements related to it ( "A taste for war" and "Balance of power" ) will become impossible to obtain?
  • CJYXGCJYXG Posts: 23Registered Users
    edited August 2018

    In follow up to my previous post above:
    3. Legitimacy is absolutely impossible to keep positive. Either far more actions need to give legitimacy or the natural decay needs to be drastically slowed down or even removed completely.

    I would agree. We need to more accesses of gaining legitimacy.

    Fair of Tailtiu should increase legitimacy instead of decreasing it, just like it used to be.


    For Legitimacy we're going to add Raiding as a way of increasing it which will tie in with the imporved raiding stance the gaelic kingdoms now get.

    @Jack_Lusted_CA : Raiding increases legitimacy? It sounds not reasonable. Legitimacy should be gained in a more legitimately way, isn't?

  • AxelradAxelrad Senior Member Posts: 632Registered Users
    CJYXG said:

    In follow up to my previous post above:
    3. Legitimacy is absolutely impossible to keep positive. Either far more actions need to give legitimacy or the natural decay needs to be drastically slowed down or even removed completely.

    I would agree. We need to more accesses of gaining legitimacy.

    Fair of Tailtiu should increase legitimacy instead of decreasing it, just like it used to be.


    For Legitimacy we're going to add Raiding as a way of increasing it which will tie in with the imporved raiding stance the gaelic kingdoms now get.

    @Jack_Lusted_CA : Raiding increases legitimacy? It sounds not reasonable. Legitimacy should be gained in a more legitimately way, isn't?

    The raiding thing actually makes a lot of sense to me - raiding was central to the Gaelic way of war, and raiding your common enemies would increase your standing among your countrymen, ie raising legitimacy.
  • CJYXGCJYXG Posts: 23Registered Users
    Axelrad said:


    The raiding thing actually makes a lot of sense to me - raiding was central to the Gaelic way of war, and raiding your common enemies would increase your standing among your countrymen, ie raising legitimacy.

    Thanks for explaining, now i understand more about it. To be more specific, raiding English or Viking factions will help with the legitimacy a lot, while raiding other Gaelic counties might be not so helpful, i think.
  • Jack_Lusted_CAJack_Lusted_CA Creative Assembly Brighton, UKPosts: 1,346Registered Users, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff
    billybob1 said:

    Thanks for the reply. Regarding the saves, the thing is I can't see any of the saves since I opted in to the beta. Only "auto_save" is visible. If I try to save twice with the same name (saves that will disappear) it says the file already exists, so something is being saved, I just can't even see to read any save back, other than ones before the beta. I will try to find the files though and upload them in the Allegiance update forum.

    Regarding Estates and their related traits, this is what I make of them (they may need more information so they can be understood) -

    "Estates Shmestates" (no loyalty penalty for estates - you can remove any and all estates for no penalty) - can't find the exact wording now but this is easy enough to understand. But why did this trait get assigned?

    "Less than king" - easy enough to understand, for some reason they want less estates than the king. But why did this trait get assigned?

    "Somewhat influential" - wants to have +2 Estates, easy enough to understand, I assume it means exactly 2. But why did this trait get assigned?

    "Annoyed, Ownership of property should come with age - the young no nothing of tenants and stipends" - Which character being younger triggered this trait? How can it be mitigated? Can it be mitigated?

    "Jealous - Does he want to sit on this throne?!" - invites the player to have the king... sit .. on his throne. Does this really mean the character will have a loyalty penalty when the king is not stationed in his royal throne town.. sitting on the throne?? Why did this even happen, what made them "Jealous"? Why does he care if the king is "sitting on his throne"?

    "Disloyal - This man has been passed over so many times it has caused deep resentment - gained from lower than 3 loyalty". Is this just a random assignment that can happen to any character lower than 3 loyalty? is it referring to being passed over in the handing out of estates? Can this trait be removed, and how?

    "Hurt pride - this man feels that less worthy individuals have stolen the match from under him" - does this mean less worthy in age, in influence, in character rank, in number of estates.. and have been given more influence, more character rank, or more estates?

    "Free spirit, -1 Loyalty from having estates" - simple enough, he loses 1 loyalty if he has any estates.


    I forgot where I saw the War Fervour mention in an event, but it was when playing West Seaxe.

    The Estates traits for characters can simply be gained by them. It represents a desire the character has and most will not change once they have them. So most can only be mitigated by how you hand out Estates.

    Disloyal explains exactly why it was gained. If a trait doesn't say why it was gained it is simply a trait that a character can just gain by chance.

    @Jack_Lusted_CA : But War Weariness is still there right ?

    There's nothing called War Weariness in Thrones.
    CJYXG said:

    Axelrad said:


    The raiding thing actually makes a lot of sense to me - raiding was central to the Gaelic way of war, and raiding your common enemies would increase your standing among your countrymen, ie raising legitimacy.

    Thanks for explaining, now i understand more about it. To be more specific, raiding English or Viking factions will help with the legitimacy a lot, while raiding other Gaelic counties might be not so helpful, i think.
    Oh the Gaelic kingdoms raided each other a lot, it was a key part in how wars between their kingdoms worked so it definitely fits in with their Legitimacy.

    Just to let you all know I won't be in the office next week, your feedback will still be read and bug reports looked into but there may be less direct responses from developers.
    Game Director - Thrones of Britannia

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • riadachriadach Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    CJYXG said:

    In follow up to my previous post above:
    3. Legitimacy is absolutely impossible to keep positive. Either far more actions need to give legitimacy or the natural decay needs to be drastically slowed down or even removed completely.

    I would agree. We need to more accesses of gaining legitimacy.

    Fair of Tailtiu should increase legitimacy instead of decreasing it, just like it used to be.


    For Legitimacy we're going to add Raiding as a way of increasing it which will tie in with the imporved raiding stance the gaelic kingdoms now get.

    @Jack_Lusted_CA : Raiding increases legitimacy? It sounds not reasonable. Legitimacy should be gained in a more legitimately way, isn't?

    In irish society, a successful raid would indeed mean that someone had more legitimacy. Military success was an important part of the prince's "truth" i.e. the signs that identified a ruler as legitimate. Indeed, there was such a thing as a crech ríg or inaugural raid which a king was expected to make after being ordained.

    I'd agree though that the Fair of Tailtiu should gain legitimacy, not cost it.
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