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High elves vs greenskins

Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 278Registered Users
I'm finding it nearly impossible to beat any decent greenskin player with high elves.

I've tried variations of princess on star dragon+4 shadow warriors+high mage (on a chariot) with arcane unforging, apotheosis, and soul quench+2 dragon princes+ellyrian reavers archers or stuff, but the best I can manage is getting them on the ropes and losing a really close match. After losing last night to a player who stayed in the trees I think I might eke out a kitey win on an open map but any large forests make it a non-starter.

I tried mass swordmaster plus Allarielle to arcane unforgettable the waaagh. Even with a delayed waaagh, that didn't work out.

I've tried Phoenix guard resistance stacking with Allarielle but I found that any artillery wrecks the elf box and it's hard to force an engagement with limited mobile forces and the ranged units you can actually protect within the resistance auras is not enough to force engagement either.

So, how do you win as high elves? Or if you've been playing greenskins, what actually beats you rather than giving you a nail biter of a win?

Comments

  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 734Registered Users
    I dont have much trouble with high elves as greenskins. I have to admit the the melee attack buff on waaagh probably needs a nerf, maybe down to +16 which would still be very strong.

    Last time i lost was a while ago to the phoenix guard death star stacking physical resist with scions of mathlann and i forget what the other thing is, with allarielle casting arcane unforging.

    Kiting builds could also win if the greenskin player is unprepared.

    You could also go heavy on cav, it can be really hard for greenskins to deal with a well microed cav force. The time before last that i lost to high elves was to jontaun, whose micro of his cav was so on point that there wasnt much i could do to stop it with the build i brought.
  • DerpmaidenDerpmaiden Posts: 48Registered Users
    NO! I dont think the bonus attack need a nerf, greenskin is pretty strong this patch and they should remain that way. GS have a rather apparent disadvantage against single large entity monster, namely dragons. I usually bring 2 Sun Dragons supported by Allariele on horse, 2 nobles, and a fireborn. The rest bring whatever you want as I tend to bring line of spearmen so the opponent wont accuse me of playing unfair. Allariele goon can be used to deal with GS anti-large options like boar boys, arach, or wurzhag, while the dragon can deal a lot of damage to the frontline. The fireborn can fulfil any role in between, but due to the fact that it is susceptible to death spells u might want to save it for last. Bring down the enemy's leadership and u likely win the game, GS will have a lot of trouble bringing down 5 core units supported by heal+avelorn+pha's protection+aura stack. GL! You can switch the frontline with more cav and shadow warriors if you want, now greenskin have 0 target they can fight with.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,421Registered Users
    Yeah, you need to stay mobile. DPs, SWs, nobles, a few speedbump spears, sun dragon is enough for cheap terror, ellyrian reavers are not bad either, or even tiranocs.
  • havy09havy09 Posts: 180Registered Users
    Fear & Terror, Mobility, Arcane Unforging, Spearmen, Lord Sniping, GG :)
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 734Registered Users

    NO! I dont think the bonus attack need a nerf, greenskin is pretty strong this patch and they should remain that way. GS have a rather apparent disadvantage against single large entity monster, namely dragons. I usually bring 2 Sun Dragons supported by Allariele on horse, 2 nobles, and a fireborn. The rest bring whatever you want as I tend to bring line of spearmen so the opponent wont accuse me of playing unfair. Allariele goon can be used to deal with GS anti-large options like boar boys, arach, or wurzhag, while the dragon can deal a lot of damage to the frontline. The fireborn can fulfil any role in between, but due to the fact that it is susceptible to death spells u might want to save it for last. Bring down the enemy's leadership and u likely win the game, GS will have a lot of trouble bringing down 5 core units supported by heal+avelorn+pha's protection+aura stack. GL! You can switch the frontline with more cav and shadow warriors if you want, now greenskin have 0 target they can fight with.

    Believe im not going to suggest a nerf of my main faction lightly. I want greenskins to be strong, but i honestly feel after playing them a lot since the last update that waaagh is a bit over the top. Its too easy to just roll over the front line of prettymuch every faction. Only chaos and dark elves can compete in the infantry fight, and thats just barely. Right now its easier to win with greenskins than it is to learn how to win against them.

    Maybe -10 is too much of a nerf, but even with a nerf waaagh will still be strong.

    As for large monsters, which can be tough but is by no means impossible for greenskins to deal with, i think the addition of missing units will help. Especially the goblin spear chukka, which will give greenskins an anti large artillery. A hero with anti large wouldnt hurt either.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 1,980Registered Users
    Well, against a good player, I don't think kite is the answer. Greenskins can bring 20 units, and slowly coral you until the right moment when they'll turn Waaagh! on and use the speed and charge bonus to get you. And they have plethora of cheap, fast units, with and without stalk, mounted archers, foot archers, poison...

    And with that bonus, even chaff becomes a threat.

  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 278Registered Users
    I had a bit of success today in custom multiplayer using allarielle with arcane unforging, mass swordmasters plus one archer (sometimes LSG) and a sun or moon dragon depending upon how many points I had left. For the rest, sometimes I used a chariot Noble and sometimes I used a treeman and sometimes both.

    With waaagh arcane unforging to start with, the swordmasters pulled out the win most of the time though it did come down to just a 20% health treeman once.

    Has anyone else had success with that style army?
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Posts: 70Registered Users
    As GS I played 6 games vs HE yesterday and won each one. I think the guy closest to winning had 3 dragon princes but he ran one into Skulkers early and couldn't recover. He also somehow isolated his lord between my army and his so was taken out quickly. However the other dragon princes did a lot of damage and were really hard to take down. In fact he conceded before I could and I think he called it to early because of his lord death. Also had some seaguard guarded by spears to halt wolves and spiders pretty effectively.

    Try heavy Calvary and maybe a dragon for the terror routes. Lots of archers and spearmen who have high MD so they can hold off the waaagh longer. Of course I'm not a HE expert but I do main GS and seems like this would hit most their weaknesses.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 278Registered Users
    @UniverseBear How close was that match?

    So far, I see three lines that are somewhat promising:

    A. Mass swordmasters with Allarielle and one or 2 chariot nobles and a cheap dragon. Arcane unforge the waaagh and count on a wide, non-elite greenskin build that can't deal with swordmasters without an early waaagh. Also has the option to goon a squishy Lord with Allarielle plus dragon and terror route enemy units.

    Results: fairly good success in multi-player lobby. I'm not sure it will work on ladder, much less a tournament setting though.

    B. Kite. 4 shadow warriors. 2+ dragon princes, Allarielle plus dragon or princess on dragon plus high mage on chariot for unforging. I think a chariot Noble is important to making this work since he should smash pursuing infantry very well.

    So far, this is this is the build that almost works. I keep coming within a hair's breadth of winning but I still lose. It will only work on an open map--if the enemy can hide in the forest, I discovered they can just take all the arrows and in a forest you can't smash pursuit with dragon princes nearly as effectively. I am also considering using 4 tir anoc chariots rather than shadow warriors. They should be harder to catch, can charge through pursuing infantry and actually have pretty good AP on their missiles if there are black orcs or arachnaroks on the field.

    C. Resistance stacking Phoenix guard deathstar. Allarielle, scions of mathlan, 2-4 Phoenix guard, other stuff.

    Results. Results on this are a bit mixed and I'm not sure I've found quote the right comp. It's pretty much hard countered by rock lobbers or Doom divers and it also struggles against super wide builds since the greenskins do get the waaagh off eventually. It also struggles to force engagement since there arent enough funds for a big mobile force and the resistance auras are too small to provide protection for more than one or two ranged units within the death star.

    I've experimented with using fewer Phoenix guard and substituting treekin who are pretty tanky and save about 500 gold per unit. They hold ok and heal well but just don't get kills no matter how long they hold. I'm also not sure about the best mobile force. I've had limited success with Allarielle plus fire Phoenix plus sun dragon but it was against pretty new players and I don't think it's the ideal build. I guess that's enough spend that I could have 2 dragon princes instead if I wanted.

    Any other thoughts/ideas?
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Posts: 70Registered Users
    @eldar_basalisk

    It wasn't a white knuckled "anyones game until the last few seconds" close but it was still the closest match I had. Arcane unforging is definitely a good idea. If you can wreck the GS frontline in that time then when they do get waaagh it's pretty much too late to come back.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,421Registered Users
    @Elder_Moloch I think you'll need Alarielle on eagle with AU + the usual kit, 2 nobles on horses (gooning and spider guard duty), and a moon dragon (or two sun dragons). The rest could be anything.... SW, DP, Tiranocs, 2-3 spears max as speed bumps.

    I have not had this MU often at all after the patch, but in a lobby vs a friend this worked well. I avoid a frontline mostly because most HE units are defensive and with the waagh going they will be hit regardless and not hit back much. If I use a frontline I use many dryads. Low MD matters little vs waagh and they have better armor than spears, and they hit back better and do OK vs everything except BO. Might be possible to get something going by mixing in the ROR WL for armor sundering and a shadow mage wither bot on foot? :) Never tried it, but I have had the thought often... if you do, please tell me how it went.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,020Registered Users
    edited August 14
    I lost this match-up only once and was in a very trolly state when playing it, I think key here is mobility with missile support and Dragon lord. I'm happy to show you how i do it if you like some games as i heard many HE players struggle here so i wouldn't mind streaming like 5 games as HE v Greenskins to try help out other HE players. Mind you i vsed the best know GS players with my HE's both on ladder and tournaments.

    I actually think there are numerous ways to win it apart from kitting also. Overall i think its an even match-up and skill based, i don't think HE's abuse GS and neither do i think that GS abuse HE's so i think its in a good spot.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 278Registered Users
    That would be very helpful. Seeing it done helped me understand how to beat the dwarf newb box and has helped in a lot of other matchups.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,421Registered Users
    Btw, how has the meta GS build vs HE changed after the patch? I didn't update my GS-builds yet and I didn't play this mu against an experienced player yet actually...
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,020Registered Users

    Btw, how has the meta GS build vs HE changed after the patch? I didn't update my GS-builds yet and I didn't play this mu against an experienced player yet actually...

    Shadow warriors are amazing here, other than that you can opt to go with allariel if you want and ROR dragon princes are ok but usually not needed. Main point is the shadow warriors.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,421Registered Users

    Btw, how has the meta GS build vs HE changed after the patch? I didn't update my GS-builds yet and I didn't play this mu against an experienced player yet actually...

    Shadow warriors are amazing here, other than that you can opt to go with allariel if you want and ROR dragon princes are ok but usually not needed. Main point is the shadow warriors.
    Aye, I have updated my HE builds... :) but what about the GS builds? Did they change in this MU?
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 734Registered Users
    edited August 15

    Btw, how has the meta GS build vs HE changed after the patch? I didn't update my GS-builds yet and I didn't play this mu against an experienced player yet actually...

    Shadow warriors are amazing here, other than that you can opt to go with allariel if you want and ROR dragon princes are ok but usually not needed. Main point is the shadow warriors.
    Aye, I have updated my HE builds... :) but what about the GS builds? Did they change in this MU?
    You dont need to worry too much about expensive infantry now, big uns do fine against prettymuch anything with waaagh. More important is to have a way of dealing with the cav and skirmishers. Nasty skulkers, spider riders, bbbu, etc. That combo hasnt changed to much since the patch but you generally want to be putting a higher percentage of your funds into that now.

    You also need some kind of missile presence to pressure alarielle on eagle and keep her from getting to close to drop au in the early game. Ive had some success with a doom diver for this role, and its also good for shooting shadow warriors and ellyrian reavers if you can get los on them.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 278Registered Users
    Lotus moon, did you put those HE vs greenskins matchups on twitch? I've been looking forward to seeing them for some pointers.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,020Registered Users

    Lotus moon, did you put those HE vs greenskins matchups on twitch? I've been looking forward to seeing them for some pointers.

    I just been playing them on steam, ill have make a note next time it comes up and link it herr for you.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,020Registered Users
    @Elder_Basilisk https://twitch.tv/videos/301290665?t=01h49m09s Here you go, i even told him my build but he didnt really try counter it. I did add the ROR LSG instead of a unit of silver helms to try out, i like them a lot to be honest.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Posts: 278Registered Users
    Thanks. It was great to see it work live and interesting to me that you did not go for arcane unforging.

    Recently I've had some success with a similar build (though I used Allarielle, a sun dragon, and double chariot nobles in place of your mage/princess/2 silver helms) but I have been taking arcane unforging to stop the waaagh. And it seems map dependent to me-- a greenskin player willing to just hide black orcs in a large forest until I run out of ammo makes it much harder since my cav and chariots are less effective and the trees block my arrows.

    I've also had some limited success with a swordmasters build. It should work in forest and is happy to take on black orcs but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work at all without arcane unforging. Arachnaroks are problems for either build--thats time I faced one, I ended up having swordmasters kill everything else and then it routed when the dragon came in to finally hurt it.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,020Registered Users
    I think there is no need to try stop the waghh because i dont want to have a frontline engagement, and princess on dragon gives me dragon and i can snipe their lord with her missiles if they didnt bring protection. If i wanted arcane unforging i can bring it on the mage instead of lore of life but i think there is no need for it. I tend to totally ignore black or d where possible and just mass rout them at the end or if they isolated.

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