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A way to nerf to dark elf: Murderous prowess

ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 552
All threads I've seen so far that talk about nerfing dark elves prefer to focuse on particular units.

But personnaly nerfing slowly those units just risk to make them useless and lead DE players to use a smaller roster (and less enjoyable as a consequence) without making the DE that weaker and months later we will find ouselves complaining why are those units bad/unplayable.
In addition I don't see any overperforming units (like close to too op)) after the nerfs they received to some DLC units.

No what I see when I play DE is that every unit from low to high tier do its job until... Murderous prowess trigger. Then everything look stupid (at least to me) every single MU between units in an ok state is a winning one or an even one.

This passive isn't only working when you snowball the fight. It's also giving a big second chance of coming back when you are loosing it because as we all know your own deaths count to trigger the Mprowess.

So to me if there is a good way to nerf DE it's to nerf their passive.
So what are you thinking ? Should it receive nerfs ? If yes what should be nerf in it ?
To me it's the leadership bonus which has to be nerf first and maybe the duration the vigor buff too maybe (even if it has already been nerfed months ago)
But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
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Comments

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,543
    Make it trigger only for non-DE deaths, so if they are doing badly, they don't get a magical second wind.

  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Reym said:

    All threads I've seen so far that talk about nerfing dark elves prefer to focuse on particular units.

    But personnaly nerfing slowly those units just risk to make them useless and lead DE players to use a smaller roster (and less enjoyable as a consequence) without making the DE that weaker and months later we will find ouselves complaining why are those units bad/unplayable.
    In addition I don't see any overperforming units (like close to too op)) after the nerfs they received to some DLC units.

    No what I see when I play DE is that every unit from low to high tier do its job until... Murderous prowess trigger. Then everything look stupid (at least to me) every single MU between units in an ok state is a winning one or an even one.

    This passive isn't only working when you snowball the fight. It's also giving a big second chance of coming back when you are loosing it because as we all know your own deaths count to trigger the Mprowess.

    So to me if there is a good way to nerf DE it's to nerf their passive.
    So what are you thinking ? Should it receive nerfs ? If yes what should be nerf in it ?
    To me it's the leadership bonus which has to be nerf first and maybe the duration the vigor buff too maybe (even if it has already been nerfed months ago)

    Vigor buff is remain in play type ( like restored HP ).
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,543
    Also, DE dominance can actually be boiled down to one unit, the Doomfire Warlocks. Fast as light cavalry, but as tanky and damaging as heavy cavalry, +poison, +4 bound spells. What were they thinking? The other minor spellcasting unit, the Sisters of the Thorn aren't nearly as packed with power.

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,937
    Nerf murder i agree with that. It is abit to much.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,618
    Yeah, mp is probably a good target. I don't agree with not counting all kills though, it's good with an incentive to go wide and not only kite or full cav or similar. A reward for using infantry is good, I like that part with de and tk mechanics.

    I would just shorten the duration.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,237

    Also, DE dominance can actually be boiled down to one unit, the Doomfire Warlocks. Fast as light cavalry, but as tanky and damaging as heavy cavalry, +poison, +4 bound spells. What were they thinking? The other minor spellcasting unit, the Sisters of the Thorn aren't nearly as packed with power.

    I actually agree with this, nerf Doomfire Warlocks (perhaps big nerf followed by a cost decrease since nobody wants a ‘meh’ unit for $1100), nerf Malekith/Morathi (especially Soul Stealer makes DE good in blob fights as well as giving DE LL’s many more HP than they should have while not having to buy a dedicated caster, which imo is against Elf design/nature), slightly nerf AP skirmish cav and suddenly DE are in a good spot imo. Currently DE are hard to beat because they have access to chaff to screen, CoK + Warlock combo which makes them win most cav engagements (these units are ok alone but a bit too much synergy when they collaborate) and AP missile cav which means your juicy units can be picked even from range. But big culprits remain Warlocks and to a lesser extent Xbow riders and to a lesser degree LL’s.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,930
    Doomfire Warlock are probably the main culprits.

    They make CoK too good. Slaanesh Harvesters with their Soulstealer are really something else.

    Dark Elves have skirmishing capability, mobility and map control close to WE level, but have much more durability, tankiness and diversity.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,735
    edited August 2018
    Doomfire warlocks do need a nerf. I don't remember them having magical attacks either so I would like to see that removed. They for sure had poison attacks though and as for their bound spells one charge each instead of two.

    As for the 40% PR I am not sure how I feel about it currently.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 955
    Not sure I agree with nerfing MP, cutting its duration or impact risks making it feel unimpactful. MP also has the drawback of coming later in the match., and isnt always up when you need it.

    I think the DE really need their mobility hit. Being able to bring good skirmish + Inf + monsters + cav is just way too much for most factions to deal with atm.

    Doomfire warlocks need bigger nerf than just price. TBH I think they need to lose either their poison or AOE, because with all around great stats, a debuff, and good aoe damage the unit can duel down most cav and still effectively kill infantry.

    Cold one knights are just great in all situations. They trade well into cav and monsters, and can also cycle charge infantry and archers. They're also well armored. The unit needs a 50 gold cost increase at minimum. If not a bit more.

    Dark riders x bows. These units are great for their cost, and with MP buffs active they become better than outriders, who cost 100 more. These guys also need a slight cost increase.


    As it stands the DE are a little bit too good at everything. Trimming this back would make the faction a little more predictable and manageable.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,382

    Make it trigger only for non-DE deaths, so if they are doing badly, they don't get a magical second wind.

    Yes I agree on this. Thought about it too in the past but I had doubts thinking it triggers only for enemy deaths. Murderous prowess isn't blood for the Blood God so it makes no sense to trigger on friendly deaths. Also I would like the option to activate it manually but the bar should start losing quantity if no kills are made for a short time. What rest think?
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,809
    edited August 2018
    Not sure MP is the way to nerf. Nerfing MP doesnt change how strong they are before MP kicks in, they already have an advantage over the opponent.
    DE is just good everywhere.... with a few littered overpowered units as people has mentioned. They have so many answers and abilities packed on some units, making them extremely versatile, better than on paper since they have synergy in battle. Nerfing MP doesnt change how strong they are before MP kicks in, they already have an advantage over the opponent.

    For example, the khaine ability of the witch elves is too good.... is a straight up nerf, melee defence reduction and rampage. Should at least give the enemy melee attack increase to compensate since you are turning them into blood crazed killers for a moment . Heck, just giving rampage with a tiny melee attack buff is really strong when you have all those dark shards incredibly power AP arrows to finish them off as the opposing player cant control them. Its reusuable removal tool
    Post edited by another505 on
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,735
    I still think sisters of slaughter need their poison removed.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,136
    edited August 2018

    I still think sisters of slaughter need their poison removed.

    Need something great in return, otherwise who would waste moneu on them when u can get executioners, who easily have 3 times more the ap when vs inf.

    Nothing but a good flanking inf, which u can replace it with cav at ease.
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  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Registered Users Posts: 2,607
    I think +50 for COK and sisters. +100 for warlocks.

    Murderous prowess is a dangerous thing to play around with since it affects the entire faction. But maybe a tiny nerf in addition to the above changes, like -1s duration or something.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,940
    Murderous prowess just gets more boring and less strategically relevant if you nerf it.

    I don’t feel strongly about DE but if the stats say they need a nerf I agree doomfire warlocks or maybe just the ror are likely culprits. They maybe over fix one of the faction’s relative weaknesses.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,543
    eumaies said:

    Murderous prowess just gets more boring and less strategically relevant if you nerf it.

    I don’t feel strongly about DE but if the stats say they need a nerf I agree doomfire warlocks or maybe just the ror are likely culprits. They maybe over fix one of the faction’s relative weaknesses.

    Murderous Prowess is boring right now because you get it no matter what and it can give the DE a second wind for losing a battle which is utterly lame. If you're beating the DE hard, you're punished for it.

  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,382
    @yst what do you think about my proposal?
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,382

    eumaies said:

    Murderous prowess just gets more boring and less strategically relevant if you nerf it.

    I don’t feel strongly about DE but if the stats say they need a nerf I agree doomfire warlocks or maybe just the ror are likely culprits. They maybe over fix one of the faction’s relative weaknesses.

    Murderous Prowess is boring right now because you get it no matter what and it can give the DE a second wind for losing a battle which is utterly lame. If you're beating the DE hard, you're punished for it.
    Look at my proposal, if you are beating DE hard u won't get punished that way. Tell me how u find my idea.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,136
    edited August 2018

    @yst what do you think about my proposal?

    Its always good to have more control over r faction mechanic. In this case tho i think it’s awkward.

    Ok boys we kill enough so lets just save that bloodlust and use it later. Im pretty sure thats anti climatic to the lads lol. Imagine ur partner “exits” before the spec “triggers” and wanna save it for later -_-“

    Prolly dont work in immersion wise. And it would be extremely op too. Its a waagh 2.0 thats significantly stronger.

    Nerf it and delf loses it flavour. Its good as it is atm, no changes needed imo. Its the reason why helf is given prowess, u touch this, helf needs nerf also.

    Its really not so much as delf being the strongest faction, which they r likely to be there. Its more about their roster having extreme synergy among each other. U want cheap chaff, u got silvershield ones, need armoured mid tier chaff killers, u got corsairs. Heavies u got executioner, fast inf flanker u got sisters etc.

    Bret for example u got garbage pilgrims with 0 pick rate and roles. Beastman with overpriced gors and overeliant on bestigors(forced to use). Empire str is growing, yet still far behind helf.
    Post edited by yst on
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,543

    Make it trigger only for non-DE deaths, so if they are doing badly, they don't get a magical second wind.

    Yes I agree on this. Thought about it too in the past but I had doubts thinking it triggers only for enemy deaths. Murderous prowess isn't blood for the Blood God so it makes no sense to trigger on friendly deaths. Also I would like the option to activate it manually but the bar should start losing quantity if no kills are made for a short time. What rest think?
    I don't think something like this should have a manual trigger. DE getting caught up in their bloodlust doesn't sound like something you could turn off and on at will.

  • PissedOffOneEyedGuyPissedOffOneEyedGuy Registered Users Posts: 1,083
    DE are fine where they're at, IF anything maybe shorten murderous prowess. but thats it nothing else
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,940
    Murderous prowess just gets more boring and less strategically relevant if you nerf it.

    I don’t feel strongly about DE but if the stats say they need a nerf I agree doomfire warlocks or maybe just the ror are likely culprits. They maybe over fix one of the faction’s relative weaknesses

    eumaies said:

    Murderous prowess just gets more boring and less strategically relevant if you nerf it.

    I don’t feel strongly about DE but if the stats say they need a nerf I agree doomfire warlocks or maybe just the ror are likely culprits. They maybe over fix one of the faction’s relative weaknesses.

    Murderous Prowess is boring right now because you get it no matter what and it can give the DE a second wind for losing a battle which is utterly lame. If you're beating the DE hard, you're punished for it.
    The key strategic consideration (that is not boring, contrary to what I predicted before wh 2 came out) is you want to try to beat dark elf armies piecemeal rather than all at once on a wide front.

    Separate from that, if MP procced only based on dark elf kills of enemy models, it would still work. Feels flavorable as it is now though (they love anybodies blood on the ground).
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,543
    So you are saying it forces the enemy into a particular playstyle on top of all the other shenanigans? Well, then it's even more important to nerf the hell out of it because being able to reliably dictate how your enemy has to play against you is the crown of imba.

  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,382
    Thing is murder isn't blood for the blood God. So definitely there is control over murder. I didn't say u turn on and off, once activated it can not be turned off. Player can choose when to activate it, also if DE don't make kills for a short time, let's say 45 seconds, the murderous bar starts to get empty.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,937
    I have always though murder prowess is to strong.

    It is a huge buff.

    Even if it was nerfed it would be incredible.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,382

    I have always though murder prowess is to strong.

    It is a huge buff.

    Even if it was nerfed it would be incredible.

    If my proposal is implemented, it will be fixed correctly. Murder isn't blood rage, seems CA doesn't want to admit they are wrong on how they made it trigger and I am right.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,193
    Giving a free soul stealer to a unit was an awful idea. It should be changed to something else,
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,193
    Giving a free soul stealer to a unit was an awful idea. It should be changed to something else, maybe 2 chillwinds or something. If they get to keep it they should be ridiculously expensive.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Registered Users Posts: 4,382

    Giving a free soul stealer to a unit was an awful idea. It should be changed to something else, maybe 2 chillwinds or something. If they get to keep it they should be ridiculously expensive.

    No it wasn't a ridiculous idea.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,136
    Dont really see any reason why dark elf needs to be nerfed. They simply have a very good working roster.

    They should be used as a benchmark as to how factions should be and how units interacts with each other within.

    Just have a look at how pathetic tomb kings roster are. U can literally send khemrian to do a nec sphinx job. Stalker and nec knights overlapping. Ush bow and bone giant competing. Garbage chariots, whole monster category is a hot mess. Pretty bad roster only carried by ush bow
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