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A case for Chaos Divided, how it could be done

GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,045Registered Users
To start this isn't a thread arguing that we are going to get Chaos Divided, we are probably going to get Daemons as a single faction,this also isn't about which LLs we will get or the rosters as there have been many good threads on this already. This thread is more to try to articulate (my opinion) on how it would work and why - done well - it could do justice to chaos as well as provide a great campaign experience for game 3, and also gather interesting ideas and speculation on how it might work. Wall of text incoming!


The Campaign

In my opinion the best way to do it would be to start with 2 God factions (Khorne and Slaanesh would be my guesses atm) as Cores for game 3, with the other 2 as DLC. Down the line there Belekor could be added as a FLC that has access to all (owned) Daemons, but more on that later. These would contain God specific warriors, Daemons, monsters (beasts of Nurgle, Slaughterbrute etc) and Marked Beastmen (pestigors etc). There will obviously be similarities, especially between warriors, across the factions but campaign mechanics as well as the different roles of the marked warriors should differentiate enough to provide unique experiences across Gods.

Khorne: This will be the "vanilla" kill everything experience, with massive favour income for winning battles which will form the backbone of the economy more than raiding or even sacking/razing. You will really need to keep fighting and keep winning, which may make for a very easy "easy" campaign but on harder difficulties will force you to pick battles and keep pressure on to fight. But you will have the most killy roster known to man, and early victories will give you the clout you need to get the job done!

Nurgle: All about the plagues. CA could refine the existing plague mechanics - and perhaps add epidemics as random occurences. Nurgle can spread plagues and his factions will gain favour for spreading them, as well as the general level of disease in the world (including Skaven plagues and random outbreaks). Nurgle factions will be weak in healthy times and access to daemons may be limited but when disease spreads all Nurgle factions can become terrifyingly powerful! Nurgle will be characterised by the tankiest roster in the game, but also the slowest and will lack the killing-power of Khorne.

Slaanesh: Slaking the Dark Prince's thirst is what this campaign is about. I imagine a "cult" mechanic, where agents can infiltrate cities to foster cults which can grow and provide you with favour, and at high levels may start to increase the factions opinion of you, meaning you can create "farm states" which you will want to protect in order to maintain your income. Different races have differing potential for income with elves yielding most (perhaps the cult of pleasure could be allied with and provide money in a similar way to trade if in alliance) and some that cannot give income or cults at all (LM, Dwarfs, Greenskins). Slaanesh will be armed with the fastest roster in the game, but quite glass cannonish with high damage but lower armour than his/her brother's factions.

Tzeentzch: This one I am more at a loss at, I thought about an influence mechanic and income based on amount of wars being waged across the world to represent world instability and change but am not sure if that would work, influence or something like it may be a good idea though. I probs know least about unique aspects of Tzeenttzch marks stuff but a more ranged focussed Chaos faction with lots of magic damage dealers and abilities that boost magic reserve and regen (like Hierotitan does) may be how it is implemented. Certainly open to suggestions with this god though!

Daemons Undivided: Led by Balekor this faction will only have access to daemons (maybe some marauders too just to provide cheap units early on). You will begin with access to basic daemons and will gain higher tier ones by crushing the god's factions to prove your greater worthiness to lead! This faction will be available for free to game 3 owners but to access Nurgle and Tzeentzch daemons you would need to own their factions, so this FLC may be released a bit later on when at least 1 of the Chaos campaign packs has been released. It may be a bit tricky to make unique from the others and will likely only have 1 LL but a Daemon horde would likely be good fun anyway.


The Old Factions

This method of implementation will give CA a lot of room to spice up the old Chaos factions too.

Warriors of Chaos: WoC will gain access to marked warriors, but not without work! This could be done in the same way as DoC, by smashing god factions into submission, or alternatively by smashing the god's rivals! Win Khornes favour by destroying a Tzeentzch faction for example. This will also unlock the path to Daemonhood for your Lords, gained Nurgles favour? Upgrade your Lord down Nurgle's path and have an army led by a Daemon prince of Nurgle (would have to be a high level lord though). The addition of Marked Warriors, Daemon princes and some of the "mortal equivalent" Daemon units like Skullcrushers would give this faction the flavour it needs! And will make it one of the most versatile races in the game.

Beastmen: Addition of a lesser version of the above, where you can unlock God specific gors like Pestigors would be interesting, though new unique units would be best!



This approach has its problems, a lot of overlap for example as CA may not want to have old factions given the toys of the new ones - even to a limited degree, though the prevailance of Giants speaks to the contrary :tongue:. But for me this is the dream scenario for Chaos and I think would provide a better, and more ambitious, experience for game 3 as well as a foundation to massively improve the Old World Chaos factions for the final chapter of the trilogy.

Do people think that this would be a fun way for Chaos to be implemented in game 3? Are there any better ideas for god implementation (especially for Tzeentzch, I struggled a bit with that one)?

«1

Comments

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    I think it would be terrible.

    The four divided rosters would all have to have the same core units (coloured differently) and would play largely the same. Chosen are Chosen regardless of their colour or gimmick. They could also do the god specific mechanics already.

    If they do monogod armies they're best as DLC. That way game 3 can capture the widest audience and people who want monogod can have it.

    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Gotrek_BeastslayerGotrek_Beastslayer Posts: 1,226Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Goatforce said:

    To start this isn't a thread arguing that we are going to get Chaos Divided, we are probably going to get Daemons as a single faction,this also isn't about which LLs we will get or the rosters as there have been many good threads on this already. This thread is more to try to articulate (my opinion) on how it would work and why - done well - it could do justice to chaos as well as provide a great campaign experience for game 3, and also gather interesting ideas and speculation on how it might work. Wall of text incoming!


    The Campaign

    In my opinion the best way to do it would be to start with 2 God factions (Khorne and Slaanesh would be my guesses atm) as Cores for game 3, with the other 2 as DLC. Down the line there Belekor could be added as a FLC that has access to all (owned) Daemons, but more on that later. These would contain God specific warriors, Daemons, monsters (beasts of Nurgle, Slaughterbrute etc) and Marked Beastmen (pestigors etc). There will obviously be similarities, especially between warriors, across the factions but campaign mechanics as well as the different roles of the marked warriors should differentiate enough to provide unique experiences across Gods.

    Khorne: This will be the "vanilla" kill everything experience, with massive favour income for winning battles which will form the backbone of the economy more than raiding or even sacking/razing. You will really need to keep fighting and keep winning, which may make for a very easy "easy" campaign but on harder difficulties will force you to pick battles and keep pressure on to fight. But you will have the most killy roster known to man, and early victories will give you the clout you need to get the job done!

    Nurgle: All about the plagues. CA could refine the existing plague mechanics - and perhaps add epidemics as random occurences. Nurgle can spread plagues and his factions will gain favour for spreading them, as well as the general level of disease in the world (including Skaven plagues and random outbreaks). Nurgle factions will be weak in healthy times and access to daemons may be limited but when disease spreads all Nurgle factions can become terrifyingly powerful! Nurgle will be characterised by the tankiest roster in the game, but also the slowest and will lack the killing-power of Khorne.

    Slaanesh: Slaking the Dark Prince's thirst is what this campaign is about. I imagine a "cult" mechanic, where agents can infiltrate cities to foster cults which can grow and provide you with favour, and at high levels may start to increase the factions opinion of you, meaning you can create "farm states" which you will want to protect in order to maintain your income. Different races have differing potential for income with elves yielding most (perhaps the cult of pleasure could be allied with and provide money in a similar way to trade if in alliance) and some that cannot give income or cults at all (LM, Dwarfs, Greenskins). Slaanesh will be armed with the fastest roster in the game, but quite glass cannonish with high damage but lower armour than his/her brother's factions.

    Tzeentzch: This one I am more at a loss at, I thought about an influence mechanic and income based on amount of wars being waged across the world to represent world instability and change but am not sure if that would work, influence or something like it may be a good idea though. I probs know least about unique aspects of Tzeenttzch marks stuff but a more ranged focussed Chaos faction with lots of magic damage dealers and abilities that boost magic reserve and regen (like Hierotitan does) may be how it is implemented. Certainly open to suggestions with this god though!

    Daemons Undivided: Led by Balekor this faction will only have access to daemons (maybe some marauders too just to provide cheap units early on). You will begin with access to basic daemons and will gain higher tier ones by crushing the god's factions to prove your greater worthiness to lead! This faction will be available for free to game 3 owners but to access Nurgle and Tzeentzch daemons you would need to own their factions, so this FLC may be released a bit later on when at least 1 of the Chaos campaign packs has been released. It may be a bit tricky to make unique from the others and will likely only have 1 LL but a Daemon horde would likely be good fun anyway.


    The Old Factions

    This method of implementation will give CA a lot of room to spice up the old Chaos factions too.

    Warriors of Chaos: WoC will gain access to marked warriors, but not without work! This could be done in the same way as DoC, by smashing god factions into submission, or alternatively by smashing the god's rivals! Win Khornes favour by destroying a Tzeentzch faction for example. This will also unlock the path to Daemonhood for your Lords, gained Nurgles favour? Upgrade your Lord down Nurgle's path and have an army led by a Daemon prince of Nurgle (would have to be a high level lord though). The addition of Marked Warriors, Daemon princes and some of the "mortal equivalent" Daemon units like Skullcrushers would give this faction the flavour it needs! And will make it one of the most versatile races in the game.

    Beastmen: Addition of a lesser version of the above, where you can unlock God specific gors like Pestigors would be interesting, though new unique units would be best!



    This approach has its problems, a lot of overlap for example as CA may not want to have old factions given the toys of the new ones - even to a limited degree, though the prevailance of Giants speaks to the contrary :tongue:. But for me this is the dream scenario for Chaos and I think would provide a better, and more ambitious, experience for game 3 as well as a foundation to massively improve the Old World Chaos factions for the final chapter of the trilogy.

    Do people think that this would be a fun way for Chaos to be implemented in game 3? Are there any better ideas for god implementation (especially for Tzeentzch, I struggled a bit with that one)?

    I think it's a great idea, mate!



    And i can see some units from EndTimes too ;) also 2 Chaos factions as cores (with OK and Chaos Not-Gotreks) and the other 2 as Race Packs/Campaign Packs is and was the best way to implement 'em IMO. ;)

    OT: i don't want to start a possible flame war ('cause every thread about Chaos-implementation is a rant-flame-war-nest nowadays...) but nope. There won't be just warriors with different colors :D specially if CA brings to the game some ET units...and if they have free rein over Chaos rosters, just like with Norsca.
    I don't need to cite nor post ^^^ these things 'cause everything is already in another thread.




    WH Novels:

    - Vampire Wars: The Von Carstein Trilogy: 10/10
    - Gilead's Blood: 8/10
    - Riders of the Dead: 9/10
    - Empire in Chaos: 9/10
    - Mark of Damnation: 7.5/10
    - Mark of Heresy: 7/10
    - G&F: Trollslayer: 6.5/10
    - G&F: Skavenslayer: 9.5/10
    - G&F: Daemonslayer: 10/10
    - G&F: Dragonslayer: 8/10
    - G&F: Beastslayer: 8.5/10
    - G&F: Vampireslayer: 7/10
    - G&F: Giantslayer: 7.5/10
    - The Chronicles of Malus Darkblade vol. one: 8.5/10
    - Drachenfels: 6.5/10
    - Genevìeve Undead: 7.5/10
    - Silver Nails: 9.5/10
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,031Registered Users
    I do think that 4 Chaos god races each with one LL alongside Ogre Kingdoms and Kislev as starting races was an option. One lord pack would then add an LL and content to all four god races and Undivided Daemons of course would be implemented as FLC. Thus one mortal LL and one daemonic LL with WoC and DoC Undivided being capable of recruiting them by smashing them.

    As far as marked warriors go adding them as permanent upgrades to undivided warriors you gain through favor instead of simple flags you can add/remove is something I'd like to see.

    Mechanics wise it depends on how deep CA decides to take it. It's very open how the influence of individual chaos gods is depicted so the idea that they would be functionally identical is simply just not being imaginative.

    Really most overlap is in Chaos Warriors, Chosen, Knights and human lords and heroes. Even those can be differentiated by visuals, stats and abilities like every human unit that exists in every Total War game.

    Still hoping for that Savage Orcs race.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • Chocolate_RainChocolate_Rain Posts: 370Registered Users
    edited August 2018


    Sorry for the off topic Goatforce. I agree with you :-)
  • Chocolate_RainChocolate_Rain Posts: 370Registered Users
  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKPosts: 35,133Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    edited August 2018
    Some comments removed. Please stick to discussing the topic.

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than illumination." (Andrew Lang)

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  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,410Registered Users
    It's a decent idea.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    I do think that 4 Chaos god races each with one LL alongside Ogre Kingdoms and Kislev as starting races was an option. One lord pack would then add an LL and content to all four god races and Undivided Daemons of course would be implemented as FLC. Thus one mortal LL and one daemonic LL with WoC and DoC Undivided being capable of recruiting them by smashing them.

    As far as marked warriors go adding them as permanent upgrades to undivided warriors you gain through favor instead of simple flags you can add/remove is something I'd like to see.

    Mechanics wise it depends on how deep CA decides to take it. It's very open how the influence of individual chaos gods is depicted so the idea that they would be functionally identical is simply just not being imaginative.

    Really most overlap is in Chaos Warriors, Chosen, Knights and human lords and heroes. Even those can be differentiated by visuals, stats and abilities like every human unit that exists in every Total War game.

    Still hoping for that Savage Orcs race.

    3 races to start? No order races? No thanks.

    The overlap would be most of the individual races. From basic warriors right to the elite there'd have to be overlap, and it'd be really boring because a chaos knight is a chaos knight regardless of gimmick. It still fills the same roll, it's still essentially the same unit.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,045Registered Users

    I think it would be terrible.

    The four divided rosters would all have to have the same core units (coloured differently) and would play largely the same. Chosen are Chosen regardless of their colour or gimmick. They could also do the god specific mechanics already.

    If they do monogod armies they're best as DLC. That way game 3 can capture the widest audience and people who want monogod can have it.

    Well I never thought you would be convinced :tongue:

    A post launch monogod option is an interesting idea. But I don't think they would necessarily play the same at all, a fast AP Slaaneshi chosen with, say, 90-100 armour will play massively differently to a plodding Nurgle Chosen with massive armour and health but fairly low damage. In fact whilst the aesthetic is very similar they will play like elites from entirely different factions. Slaanesh and Nurgle chosen would likely have more difference in gameplay than executioners and swordmasters for example, in fact they could be compared to Bestigors and Ironbreakers in terms of how they would play.
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,031Registered Users

    Crossil said:

    I do think that 4 Chaos god races each with one LL alongside Ogre Kingdoms and Kislev as starting races was an option. One lord pack would then add an LL and content to all four god races and Undivided Daemons of course would be implemented as FLC. Thus one mortal LL and one daemonic LL with WoC and DoC Undivided being capable of recruiting them by smashing them.

    As far as marked warriors go adding them as permanent upgrades to undivided warriors you gain through favor instead of simple flags you can add/remove is something I'd like to see.

    Mechanics wise it depends on how deep CA decides to take it. It's very open how the influence of individual chaos gods is depicted so the idea that they would be functionally identical is simply just not being imaginative.

    Really most overlap is in Chaos Warriors, Chosen, Knights and human lords and heroes. Even those can be differentiated by visuals, stats and abilities like every human unit that exists in every Total War game.

    Still hoping for that Savage Orcs race.

    3 races to start? No order races? No thanks.
    Thanks for not even reading my comment and just spamming vitriol.

    Crossil said:

    I do think that 4 Chaos god races each with one LL alongside Ogre Kingdoms and Kislev as starting races was an option. One lord pack would then add an LL and content to all four god races and Undivided Daemons of course would be implemented as FLC. Thus one mortal LL and one daemonic LL with WoC and DoC Undivided being capable of recruiting them by smashing them.

    As far as marked warriors go adding them as permanent upgrades to undivided warriors you gain through favor instead of simple flags you can add/remove is something I'd like to see.

    Mechanics wise it depends on how deep CA decides to take it. It's very open how the influence of individual chaos gods is depicted so the idea that they would be functionally identical is simply just not being imaginative.

    Really most overlap is in Chaos Warriors, Chosen, Knights and human lords and heroes. Even those can be differentiated by visuals, stats and abilities like every human unit that exists in every Total War game.

    Still hoping for that Savage Orcs race.

    The overlap would be most of the individual races. From basic warriors right to the elite there'd have to be overlap, and it'd be really boring because a chaos knight is a chaos knight regardless of gimmick. It still fills the same roll, it's still essentially the same unit.
    That's because you refuse to see beyond your imagined depiction of individual versions. "A human knight is a human knight regardless of gimmick. It still fills the same roll, it's still essentially the same unit." Of course not, it's a baseless statement.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    I think it would be terrible.

    The four divided rosters would all have to have the same core units (coloured differently) and would play largely the same. Chosen are Chosen regardless of their colour or gimmick. They could also do the god specific mechanics already.

    If they do monogod armies they're best as DLC. That way game 3 can capture the widest audience and people who want monogod can have it.

    Well I never thought you would be convinced :tongue:

    A post launch monogod option is an interesting idea. But I don't think they would necessarily play the same at all, a fast AP Slaaneshi chosen with, say, 90-100 armour will play massively differently to a plodding Nurgle Chosen with massive armour and health but fairly low damage. In fact whilst the aesthetic is very similar they will play like elites from entirely different factions. Slaanesh and Nurgle chosen would likely have more difference in gameplay than executioners and swordmasters for example, in fact they could be compared to Bestigors and Ironbreakers in terms of how they would play.
    It's still the exact same role in the army. They're the top of the line tanky damage dealer in a melee centric chaos race. All that changes is the gimmick. Glass cannon, tank, magic damage dealing, and Brawling Chosen all fill the same role in what is virtually the same roster.

    The 8th Ed Demons army book (and 8th Ed is what the game is primarily based off of) does a really good job of taking 4 separate styles and mixing them together. Alone they're just one note armies, together they're complex and awesome. Monogod armies will look pretty, but undivided Demons will look chaotic and bring far more to the table game wise.

    It's why they really should be DLC. The Chaos fans can have them, and it will leave game 3 with 4 core races that provide the most appeal, which means the most sales, which means the most support, which means we get the best game possible at the end.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 1,630Registered Users
    To throw the Chaos crowd a bone, only Chaos rosters launch probably could be done, and each could be made diverse with a unique playstyle and distinct visual aesthetic.

    I don't doubt that it's possible to implement.

    But even if it was done well, it really just would be a bad idea that would sell poorly. The only people who would interested in buying such a thing would be pre existing Chaos fans. Chaos fans who will buy whether Chaos is one race or 4.

    From a business standpoint, CA is much better off with only 1 Chaos race at launch. They'd get basically all the Chaos fans still, and loads of other people as well.

  • GodWillTellGodWillTell Posts: 642Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    @Valkaar The OP didn't say 4 Chaos races at launch, he said:
    The Campaign

    In my opinion the best way to do it would be to start with 2 God factions (Khorne and Slaanesh would be my guesses atm) as Cores for game 3, with the other 2 as DLC.
    Which is correct because someway or another CA has to add 4 main races at launch, and without monogods CA can only add DoC, Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs. Kislev or any other faction outside from those 3 are a minor factions and it could be a pre order faction at best, like Norsca, or a future DLC.

    #FORGHORGON
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 1,630Registered Users

    @Valkaar The OP didn't say 4 Chaos races at launch, he said:

    The Campaign

    In my opinion the best way to do it would be to start with 2 God factions (Khorne and Slaanesh would be my guesses atm) as Cores for game 3, with the other 2 as DLC.
    Which is correct because someway or another CA has to add 4 main races at launch, and without monogods CA can only add DoC, Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs. Kislev or any other faction outside from those 3 are a minor factions and it could be a pre order faction at best, like Norsca, or a future DLC.

    I know. It doesn't change the point. The optimal number of chaos to include at launch is 1.

    1 gets CA almost all the Chaos fans. 2 adds nothing/marginal amount to sales while having the lost opportunity cost of losing potentially 25% of their customers who would have bought some non chaos thing.

    Minor race or not really doesn't matter as most of the potential customers have not played TT. I would buy for Kislev. Lots of Asian style fans would buy for Cathay/Nippon. Etc.

    Any non chaos race they can add, minor or not, brings way more customers to the table than what any additional Chaos race beyond 1 would bring.

  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    @Goatforce

    Just to clarify: What races do you envision Game 3 launching with besides the two God races?
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,045Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    I think it would be terrible.

    The four divided rosters would all have to have the same core units (coloured differently) and would play largely the same. Chosen are Chosen regardless of their colour or gimmick. They could also do the god specific mechanics already.

    If they do monogod armies they're best as DLC. That way game 3 can capture the widest audience and people who want monogod can have it.

    Well I never thought you would be convinced :tongue:

    A post launch monogod option is an interesting idea. But I don't think they would necessarily play the same at all, a fast AP Slaaneshi chosen with, say, 90-100 armour will play massively differently to a plodding Nurgle Chosen with massive armour and health but fairly low damage. In fact whilst the aesthetic is very similar they will play like elites from entirely different factions. Slaanesh and Nurgle chosen would likely have more difference in gameplay than executioners and swordmasters for example, in fact they could be compared to Bestigors and Ironbreakers in terms of how they would play.
    It's still the exact same role in the army. They're the top of the line tanky damage dealer in a melee centric chaos race. All that changes is the gimmick. Glass cannon, tank, magic damage dealing, and Brawling Chosen all fill the same role in what is virtually the same roster.

    The 8th Ed Demons army book (and 8th Ed is what the game is primarily based off of) does a really good job of taking 4 separate styles and mixing them together. Alone they're just one note armies, together they're complex and awesome. Monogod armies will look pretty, but undivided Demons will look chaotic and bring far more to the table game wise.

    It's why they really should be DLC. The Chaos fans can have them, and it will leave game 3 with 4 core races that provide the most appeal, which means the most sales, which means the most support, which means we get the best game possible at the end.
    Does it matter that Chosen are all elite infantry in a chaos faction? They function completely differently, if the infantry work differently then the armies will feel different. Wildwood Rangers and executioners are both Elven elite infantry, but they have different statlines anf function differently despite filling the same aproximate role.

    And what about HE and DE, both elves whose melee infantry are almost exactly the same? Yet due to mechanical differences and differences mostly in the monsters and archers they can bring they feel very distinct. Chaos will have similarities in the rosters with the warriors but the Daemons will function and appear very different, as well as the more unique units like Skullcrushers and Flamers. I personally feel that monogod armies can easily be made to be just as distinct, probably more distinct, than the HE and DE.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,045Registered Users

    @Goatforce

    Just to clarify: What races do you envision Game 3 launching with besides the two God races?

    I would imagine Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms, but one of those might be swapped out for Kislev to provide a human "good" faction to broaden the appeal.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Realistically monogod rosters are 75% WoC and 25% DoC given that they take 1/4 of DoC roster, maybe with an odd beastmen unit thrown in.

    You could try to get super creative and make god aligned warriors much more different than they ever were on TT (even in AoS), but TWW needs the roster to cover certain bases.

    E.g. it needs to have AP, anti large etc. You can't have a roster with no AP infantry unless it has great AP ranged.

    Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh DoC do not offer anything drastically different to what WoC core could offer, with some units being outright clones (Skullcrushers and Bloodcrushers, Helllstriders and Seekers). They give you more infantry, chariots, an artillery piece and a few cav units. A lot of these would actually overlap with WoC units and could replace them e.g. Seeker chariot instead of Chaos chariot, but that doesn't make the roster much more different.

    Ultimately, you still have a heavy infantry core roster with some cav and monster support. You could give Slaanesh warriors less armor, but they still wear chaos armor and don't fight naked, so the difference would likely be pretty cosmetic, unless you're asking CA to invent a new naked warriors of Slaanesh unit. Ultimately, they won't be a skirmish, artillery or a cavalry faction. They won't be a missile heavy faction or a stealthy ambush faction. All these rosters will rely on rushing the enemy with a heavy infantry core and chopping them down, there's no way around it. This is not really comparable to HE, DE and WE level of tactical variety unless we go into complete fanfiction territory and make all Slaaneshi warriors light infantry, add Slaaneshi archers and 5 different types of Nurgle artillery.

    Tzeentch is a bit different cause it offers the missile and flying parts of the DoC roster, which actually means something different in terms of strategy and is basically the only monogod roster I'm potentially mildly interested in.

    You can pull Some ET stuff like Skullreapers or Blight Knights as well, but these are basically Chosen of Khorne/Nurgle+.

    Speaking of campaign mechanics, most of your ideas do not take it much further than the already implemented Norsca god favor mechanic and are completely doable within constraints of subfactions.

    Ultimately I don't see why to "do Chaos justice" CA has to invent a ton of stuff and mechanics that never existed on TT and give them 3 times as many lords as any other race, while most of the races don't even have all of their armybook stuff. To do Chaos justice CA needs to implement marks in some capacity and do most of the WoC and DoC armybooks unit wise. Anything else is favoritism, and reminds me of 40k where half the races are Space Marine chapters. Except Chaos isn't even remotely as popular in fantasy, let alone TWW (WoC were one of the least popular races in WH1).

    Indeed, if we have WoC undivided, DoC undivided and 4 monogod rosters, Beastmen, Norsca, Skaven this would mean half of the races in the trilogy are Chaos.

    As I already said, a proper way to do god aligned factions would be as WoC subfactions, since they're 75% WoC anyway. You can even throw in ET units in the mix if these are DLCs so there's more meat to them (since marked knights and warriors are basically texture packs, look at Steam Workshop).

    The only real difference is that they're likely going to get less lords, but again I'm not sure why Chaos deserves 3 times more lords than anyone else, and pretty much all other races have a ton of interesting characters that haven't been added.

    This also means that lords like Kairos, N'kari, Skarbrand etc go to DoC where they rightfully belong.
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,031Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    I don't think cultists were ever part of WoC armies. Nurgle plagued humans would also be analogous to any other meatshield unit. Doombulls and Bestigors also come in different versions based on god they dedicate themselves to so a unit made of them could also be added as well as to the BM. Some creatures like Bile Trolls also belong perfectly here.

    I find Tzeentch Great Winged Terror a possible addition. Though some might find it as ridiculous as the Skycutter, but it fits Tzeentch so well and it floats so why not.

    Slaanesh is really the one I can't find much for. It was the least favored of the Chaos gods.

    Edit: here's something: Mandrake Man.

    Edit2: ok this is stupid: Druchii Anointed
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,884Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    That's because you refuse to see beyond your imagined depiction of individual versions. "A human knight is a human knight regardless of gimmick. It still fills the same roll, it's still essentially the same unit." Of course not, it's a baseless statement.

    They kind of are, actually. Bretonnia doesn't feel different to the Empire because its knights are different/better (even though they are). It's the way the rest of the two armies are set up. The Empire is a ground-based, combined arms list where the cavalry is generally playing a supporting role to the infantry. The Bretonnian list, on the other hand, is pretty much entirely focused on cavalry (including flying cavalry) and supporting said cavalry. It doesn't matter that Empire Knights and KotR functionally serve the same purpose because the rest of the two armies are different and function differently.

    Similar observations apply to the Elves. Yes, they all have spearmen, dragons, some form of elite halberdiers, and so on... but the rest of the armies are different and focus on different aspects.

    Monogod Chaos armies, on the other hand - if they stick to tabletop lists and stay even close to tabletop statistics, you're looking at about a dozen units each that are virtually identical to one another, apart from the effects of the different marks (which, on tabletop, were mostly fairly subtle: a ward save here, immunity to psychology there...). That's not just a few units that play similarly: it's the entire core of each army, at pretty much any tier, that they have in common. Suggestions like the fast, lightly armoured, AP Slaaneshi Chosen versus plodding, tanky, relatively low-damage Nurgle Chosen are creating differences which, while flavourful, never existed in the tabletop (whereas the Elves have had differences flattened out).

    However, we're not here to rehash old arguments. There's clearly enough demand for monogod lists for them to make good DLC, so let's look at possible campaign mechanics:

    The Chaos in the Old World board game could well be a good source for ideas of what grants power to each god. Unfortunately, I don't remember them in great detail, except for Khorne killing things and Tzeentch transporting warpstone across the board, but if anybody does have a copy, that could be a source of inspiration.

    With respect to Tzeentch specifically, since that's the god the OP passed the ball on:

    When I think of Tzeentch, there are three things I generally think of: Magic, intrigue, and mutation. In that order.

    The magic side of things could be covered by Tzeentch having abilities that can increase the Winds of Magic in a region, and rewards for doing so (for instance, they might get favour income for every province where the winds are blowing strongly, or an upkeep reduction for units in provinces with high magic). For fairness, other races might have means of opposing this: for instance, Untainted generation might push magic in a region back to its 'default' state, and characters which provide a 'channel magic' stance might have a 'drain magic' stance they could employ instead if weakening Tzeentch is an objective (races capable of using High Magic, such as Slann, Asur, and Asrai should be particularly good at this).

    On the intrigue side of things, Tzeentch could have a High Elf-like influence mechanic, but instead of influence gain mostly coming from buildings and pop-up events, Tzeentch factions receive influence whenever a diplomatic status between two powers changes. This isn't just about stirring up war: factions agreeing to peace is just as beneficial as going to war. Basically, your goal in this respect is to ensure that the diplomatic landscape is ever-changing rather than settling into a steady status quo. There could potentially be higher rewards the more unlikely a particular event is: if you can pull off an alliance between major rivals, Tzeentch will laugh his head off and go to brag to Khorne about how a war that everyone thought was unending has been brought to a state of sunshine and rainbows. (Yes, this is something that intuitively would be against the long-term objectives of a Chaos faction. To which I respond: Tzeentch.)

    Mutation... is hard to turn into a campaign mechanic beyond the generic "spread Chaos corruption everywhere" that all Chaos factions are likely to have.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    The simple, undeniable reality is that if the game has one or more divided Demons races as a core it can only sell less than having four unique races.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    Everything we know about game 1 and 2 tells us game 3 will flop without an order race. Destruction and monster races simply aren't popular.

    Additional Chaos races add very few to no customers. An additional order race or 2 adds many more.
    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    I think it would be terrible.

    The four divided rosters would all have to have the same core units (coloured differently) and would play largely the same. Chosen are Chosen regardless of their colour or gimmick. They could also do the god specific mechanics already.

    If they do monogod armies they're best as DLC. That way game 3 can capture the widest audience and people who want monogod can have it.

    Well I never thought you would be convinced :tongue:

    A post launch monogod option is an interesting idea. But I don't think they would necessarily play the same at all, a fast AP Slaaneshi chosen with, say, 90-100 armour will play massively differently to a plodding Nurgle Chosen with massive armour and health but fairly low damage. In fact whilst the aesthetic is very similar they will play like elites from entirely different factions. Slaanesh and Nurgle chosen would likely have more difference in gameplay than executioners and swordmasters for example, in fact they could be compared to Bestigors and Ironbreakers in terms of how they would play.
    It's still the exact same role in the army. They're the top of the line tanky damage dealer in a melee centric chaos race. All that changes is the gimmick. Glass cannon, tank, magic damage dealing, and Brawling Chosen all fill the same role in what is virtually the same roster.

    The 8th Ed Demons army book (and 8th Ed is what the game is primarily based off of) does a really good job of taking 4 separate styles and mixing them together. Alone they're just one note armies, together they're complex and awesome. Monogod armies will look pretty, but undivided Demons will look chaotic and bring far more to the table game wise.

    It's why they really should be DLC. The Chaos fans can have them, and it will leave game 3 with 4 core races that provide the most appeal, which means the most sales, which means the most support, which means we get the best game possible at the end.
    Does it matter that Chosen are all elite infantry in a chaos faction? They function completely differently, if the infantry work differently then the armies will feel different. Wildwood Rangers and executioners are both Elven elite infantry, but they have different statlines anf function differently despite filling the same aproximate role.

    And what about HE and DE, both elves whose melee infantry are almost exactly the same? Yet due to mechanical differences and differences mostly in the monsters and archers they can bring they feel very distinct. Chaos will have similarities in the rosters with the warriors but the Daemons will function and appear very different, as well as the more unique units like Skullcrushers and Flamers. I personally feel that monogod armies can easily be made to be just as distinct, probably more distinct, than the HE and DE.
    DE and HE have functionally different rosters, different themes, and mechanics. They also have good rosters with variance within it. Divided rosters take a roster with variety and remove the variety to boil it down to one note. They're all melee centric, they're all chaos, and they all share a core roster that only changes colour.

    They simply aren't good enough to take up any core slots. Undivided demons? Awesome roster. Divided? Just nope.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Crossil said:

    I don't think cultists were ever part of WoC armies. Nurgle plagued humans would also be analogous to any other meatshield unit. Doombulls and Bestigors also come in different versions based on god they dedicate themselves to so a unit made of them could also be added as well as to the BM. Some creatures like Bile Trolls also belong perfectly here.

    I find Tzeentch Great Winged Terror a possible addition. Though some might find it as ridiculous as the Skycutter, but it fits Tzeentch so well and it floats so why not.

    Slaanesh is really the one I can't find much for. It was the least favored of the Chaos gods.

    Edit: here's something: Mandrake Man.

    Edit2: ok this is stupid: Druchii Anointed

    I mean, if you try really hard you could find a few more units, but that doesn't really change the core formula. Nor does it explain the necessity to do so. Cultists could be represented by god aligned marauders, although if you get extra creative you could make hordes of diseased Nurgle peasants, question is why do it when you have a ton of actual TT stuff to implement.
    Draxynnic said:

    Suggestions like the fast, lightly armoured, AP Slaaneshi Chosen versus plodding, tanky, relatively low-damage Nurgle Chosen are creating differences which, while flavourful, never existed in the tabletop (whereas the Elves have had differences flattened out).

    Not even that. Slaaneshi chosen aren't that different, even in the lore. So it's not a flavorful thing, it's just fan fiction. They aren't noise marines, sorry. Pretty much all chaos warriors wear chaos armor. It would be weird for them to have significantly different armor values. It's not like Chaos Dwarfs make crappier armor depending on your god of choice. I mean, Slaaneshi warriors might want to leave some... convenience openings in the armor which could be exploited, especially by short races like Skaven and Dwarfs, but that doesn't warrant a huge armor value difference. Ultimately both Slaaneshi and Nurgle chosen are tough bastards and while Nurgle followers might not feel pain Slaanesh followers probably enjoy it.

    The roster also needs to function in game. We already have "ironbreaker" and "bestigor" chosen btw, they're called chosen with shields and chosen with GW. I can see Slaaneshi warriors and chosen being faster, similar to mirror guard RoR and Nurgle chosen having more MD and/or HP, but both rosters need AP and anti large options and they're not getting them elsewhere, so they'll both get AP warriors and chosen with GW and Halberds. You can throw some flavorful twists in there like Nurgle GW chosen having scythes instead of greataxes (but it's just a visual thing) or Khorne missing shielded warriors and chosen and replacing them with a dual wielding variant instead, but it's all just minor tweaks that would not create completely different playstyles.

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Speaking of potential Tzeentch subfaction mechanics:

    -Tzeentch likes to reward followers with mutations. It would be cool if Tzeentch lords and even units would get random positive or negative traits on level ups. Like a unit of chaos warriors could get rampage or extra magic resist. Bonus points if represented by slight visual tweaks, but likely gonna be too expensive.
    -Enhanced WoM reserves for armies.
    -You can see the outcomes of random actions such as agent actions on campaign map and can try to boost them so that they succeed. You also have unique stance massively increasing ambush detection chance and giving immunity to lightning strike. A cool ability for a Tzeentch lord would be being able to deploy after the enemy army and see enemy deployment (obviously campaign only). In general various "just as planned" fuckery.

    Potential DoC mechanics:

    -DoC (not Tzeentch monogod/WoC) are the ones that should actually be heavily tied to the level of winds of magic, it's a central part of their lore (see Vortex). When winds of magic are low, all DoC suffer penalties. If they are high they get stronger. DoC agents and buildings can boost the chances to have high winds in the region.
    -DoC should suffer attrition when chaos corruption is too low, just like VC
    -DoC should have some sort of internal rivalry mechanic. Nurgle lord should easily recruit Nurgle units, recruit Slaanesh and Khorne units with some restrictions and have a really hard time fielding any Tzeentch units (still possible, but quite limited). Ultimately it should be represented with some sort of favor meter with each god influencing which and how many units you can get, with penalties and bonuses to favor depending on your subfaction and in game choices
    -DoC should create "Chaos rifts" in place of destroyed cities that allow to summon daemons, boost corruption, provide garrisons based on the level of corruption and potentially even allow to teleport between them. Available units should be dependent on your disposition with different gods rather than building chains, meaning you can summon anything anywhere as long as you have access to it

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • LudboneLudbone Posts: 1,035Registered Users
    edited August 2018

    Everything we know about game 1 and 2 tells us game 3 will flop without an order race. Destruction and monster races simply aren't popular.

    Additional Chaos races add very few to no customers. An additional order race or 2 adds many more.

    The simple, undeniable reality is that if the game has one or more divided Demons races as a core it can only sell less than having four unique races.

    False.
    You're now just spreading out misinformation based on nothing but your personal, unfounded idea that Divided Chaos = silly and will be a complete flop.

    The only thing that you can probably appeal for supporting your hilarious statement are TW Forum community polls, and several of those polls supports Divided Chaos over Undivided. . .


    while other polls supports Undivided but only for a couple of votes, like 50 votes for Undivided and 40 votes for Divided Chaos. Monogods are clearly not hated or unwanted by everyone not even close.

    Then you have to see the opinion of the world. I saw Italian Spartacus, M&CTW and other videos from famous Total War Youtubers about Monogods units, lore, mechanics etc. and the great majority of people supports Monogods and their opinions.
    Do you have any idea how many souls out there wants Divided Chaos? Because believe it or not you are just trying to put your personal opinions in the mouth of everyone out there, every player and possible buyer.

    WH3 will be a flop with only Destruction forces? Based on what? A poll again? Because this poll laughs at it.


    Go to find something to support your words or don't come back with this fantasy again. Try to understand what I'm saying.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
    Beastmen: where is the love?


  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 2,045Registered Users
    Well, to get away from the "do you like the Divided idea" for a minute I really like the ideas for Tzeentch @MadDemiurg and @Draxynnic had. Income based on WoM, influence gained from diplomatic changes as well as traits from leveling units up would make a very interesting and thematic campaign.

    I think favour and/or secondary resources earned by worldwide events or statuses does fit the theme of chaos. Maybe Khorne could get some favour for each battle fought worldwide (even if only a little bit) to represent his getting stronger through bloodshed?

    Perhaps to add to Slaanesh cults could appear in human/elven cities randomly too, which give a smaller amount of favour to all Slaaneshi factions (only important if you are in multiplayer and both Slaanesh but might be nice anyway), and you can send agents to take over the cult and direct its worship at you, which would give you a premade cult income, incentivising seeking out these cults and perhaps infighting between Slaaneshi factions for cult following. I admit that I am quite proud of the cult mechanic idea :tongue:
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,031Registered Users
    There are different types of Chaos Spawn as well: Bloodbeasts, Plaguebeast, Firewyrm, Fiend of Slaanesh(technically in)

    Slimehound is a Daemon from Warhammer Online

    Toad Dragon I completely forgot and with Tamurkhan it makes sense to add it to Nurgle.

    I actually think Druchii Anointed makes sense since we have Cult of Pleasure spreading Chaos corruption so some Chaos worshipping Druchii exist. In fact I'd wager CA made it as such specifically to make Dark Elf units available to Slaanesh.

    Crossil said:

    I don't think cultists were ever part of WoC armies. Nurgle plagued humans would also be analogous to any other meatshield unit. Doombulls and Bestigors also come in different versions based on god they dedicate themselves to so a unit made of them could also be added as well as to the BM. Some creatures like Bile Trolls also belong perfectly here.

    I find Tzeentch Great Winged Terror a possible addition. Though some might find it as ridiculous as the Skycutter, but it fits Tzeentch so well and it floats so why not.

    Slaanesh is really the one I can't find much for. It was the least favored of the Chaos gods.

    Edit: here's something: Mandrake Man.

    Edit2: ok this is stupid: Druchii Anointed

    I mean, if you try really hard you could find a few more units, but that doesn't really change the core formula. Nor does it explain the necessity to do so. Cultists could be represented by god aligned marauders, although if you get extra creative you could make hordes of diseased Nurgle peasants, question is why do it when you have a ton of actual TT stuff to implement.
    What ton of TT stuff? Daemons and Ogres are two TT 8th ed armies left. Chaos Dwarfs are ancient and Kislev wasn't an army list. You can get those 2 but there isn't "ton" of TT stuff left aside from races that are already in. I could also say why add Norsca when there is content for WoC that still needs implementing.

    You said 75% is WoC so I wanted to show there are different units to find. Chaos Cults I mention because they are technically dedicated to individual Chaos gods so it makes sense to include them in god races.

    Draxynnic said:

    Suggestions like the fast, lightly armoured, AP Slaaneshi Chosen versus plodding, tanky, relatively low-damage Nurgle Chosen are creating differences which, while flavourful, never existed in the tabletop (whereas the Elves have had differences flattened out).

    Not even that. Slaaneshi chosen aren't that different, even in the lore. So it's not a flavorful thing, it's just fan fiction. They aren't noise marines, sorry. Pretty much all chaos warriors wear chaos armor. It would be weird for them to have significantly different armor values. It's not like Chaos Dwarfs make crappier armor depending on your god of choice. I mean, Slaaneshi warriors might want to leave some... convenience openings in the armor which could be exploited, especially by short races like Skaven and Dwarfs, but that doesn't warrant a huge armor value difference. Ultimately both Slaaneshi and Nurgle chosen are tough bastards and while Nurgle followers might not feel pain Slaanesh followers probably enjoy it.

    The roster also needs to function in game. We already have "ironbreaker" and "bestigor" chosen btw, they're called chosen with shields and chosen with GW. I can see Slaaneshi warriors and chosen being faster, similar to mirror guard RoR and Nurgle chosen having more MD and/or HP, but both rosters need AP and anti large options and they're not getting them elsewhere, so they'll both get AP warriors and chosen with GW and Halberds. You can throw some flavorful twists in there like Nurgle GW chosen having scythes instead of greataxes (but it's just a visual thing) or Khorne missing shielded warriors and chosen and replacing them with a dual wielding variant instead, but it's all just minor tweaks that would not create completely different playstyles.
    Well, you pretty much gave a reason why Slaanesh Warriors wouldn't wear armor with enjoying it comment.

    Well Druchii Annointed for Slaanesh? Convenient to ignore right?

    Khorne is pretty much well represented with WoC and Norsca due to, well, those being built for war so in Khorne's case sure.

    Tzeentch doesn't care about these statistics.

    Don't know much about stats of beasts I added to Nurgle so dunno for him.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,031Registered Users
    From Tamurkhan:




    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,031Registered Users

    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."

    I don't think most-least played indicates buying desire at all. Even if it's just to have more of Warhammer people might want it. I can also make comments about these hard-lined fans that are mentioned being not indicative of any large groups and mostly as relevant as polls you dismiss.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
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