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the Waaaaaaaaagh! discussion

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  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,062
    Greenskins have efficient infantry - Black Orcs, Nasty Skulkers, and regular Goblin Spears are all quite effective for their price - and good light cavalry, plus pretty decent artillery. Their anti-large, however, is absolute garbage; remember back when people whined that BBBUs we're overpowered? You wanna talk about power creep. . .

    The Waaagh basically, yes, compensates for the Greenskins crippling weaknesses, specifically their weakness to large armored units that cause fear/terror, by making their infantry capable of smashing opposing infantry so fast that the Greenskins have enough units left afterwards to inefficiently fight the monsters. It's a bad solution, but until new units are introduced to cover some of the gaping holes, nerfing it would be even worse.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,364
    The issue is it’s very hard to take away from a faction.

    I can’t see CA removing this feature but while it’s in, they effectively have to make the units’ base stats very poor to compensate which for me isn’t a good solution
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 438
    I was just watching Sekkarma of total brohammer's latest chaos stream. When even chaos players have decided that they shouldn't bring a front line vs greenskins because waaagh will let the greenskins win handily against any reasonable investment, you've got a problem.

    Changing or nerfing the waaagh should be accompanied by a re-evaluation of the rest of the faction, but the current state of greenskins is not healthy for the game.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,449

    I was just watching Sekkarma of total brohammer's latest chaos stream. When even chaos players have decided that they shouldn't bring a front line vs greenskins because waaagh will let the greenskins win handily against any reasonable investment, you've got a problem.

    Changing or nerfing the waaagh should be accompanied by a re-evaluation of the rest of the faction, but the current state of greenskins is not healthy for the game.

    You r wrong. Waaagh has since release been a threat to Chaos, but this does not make it unhealthy for the game. As a WoC main player I could deal with it even with front line builts. It's a challenge for the game. Greenskin units stats are ok, they aren't weak and they get a strong boost by waaagh for a duration, it's just fine. Sure I support anything would make the game better as long as it's according to tt.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,515

    I was just watching Sekkarma of total brohammer's latest chaos stream. When even chaos players have decided that they shouldn't bring a front line vs greenskins because waaagh will let the greenskins win handily against any reasonable investment, you've got a problem.

    Changing or nerfing the waaagh should be accompanied by a re-evaluation of the rest of the faction, but the current state of greenskins is not healthy for the game.

    Lulz what kind of coward forsake his entire line because he got no balls for a 30s

    Pure joke of a pathetic excuse.

    Just say they wanna cheese something else instead of being hypocritical and blaming a pitiful 30s thingy

    Prolly a dream come true for all cheesers, omfg can finally have an excuse, blame waggghhhhh, yes yes
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,515
    Dwf - omfg magic resist, will not bring melee, ever
    Empire - omfg hold the line, will not bring melee, ever
    High elf - omfg martial prowess, will not bring melee, ever
    Dark elf - omfg murder prowess, will not bring melee, ever
    Skaven - omfg ratsssss, will not bring melee, ever
    Liz - omfg rampage(lol), will not bring melee, ever
    Chaos - omfg armorrr, will not bring melee, ever
    Beastman - omfg no armorrr, will not bring melee, ever
    Vamps - omfg fear causing zombies, will not bring melee, ever
    Brets - omfg expendable peasants, will not bring melee, ever
    Orks - omfg wagghh, will not bring melee, ever
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,614
    edited August 2018
    yst said:

    Dwf - omfg magic resist, will not bring melee, ever
    Empire - omfg hold the line, will not bring melee, ever
    High elf - omfg martial prowess, will not bring melee, ever
    Dark elf - omfg murder prowess, will not bring melee, ever
    Skaven - omfg ratsssss, will not bring melee, ever
    Liz - omfg rampage(lol), will not bring melee, ever
    Chaos - omfg armorrr, will not bring melee, ever
    Beastman - omfg no armorrr, will not bring melee, ever
    Vamps - omfg fear causing zombies, will not bring melee, ever
    Brets - omfg expendable peasants, will not bring melee, ever
    Orks - omfg wagghh, will not bring melee, ever

    that's exaggeration, do you have any insightful comments besids trolling?
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,449
    yst said:

    I was just watching Sekkarma of total brohammer's latest chaos stream. When even chaos players have decided that they shouldn't bring a front line vs greenskins because waaagh will let the greenskins win handily against any reasonable investment, you've got a problem.

    Changing or nerfing the waaagh should be accompanied by a re-evaluation of the rest of the faction, but the current state of greenskins is not healthy for the game.

    Lulz what kind of coward forsake his entire line because he got no balls for a 30s

    Pure joke of a pathetic excuse.

    Just say they wanna cheese something else instead of being hypocritical and blaming a pitiful 30s thingy

    Prolly a dream come true for all cheesers, omfg can finally have an excuse, blame waggghhhhh, yes yes
    I love your posts ROFL! You are so damn right!
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,659

    yst said:

    Dwf - omfg magic resist, will not bring melee, ever
    Empire - omfg hold the line, will not bring melee, ever
    High elf - omfg martial prowess, will not bring melee, ever
    Dark elf - omfg murder prowess, will not bring melee, ever
    Skaven - omfg ratsssss, will not bring melee, ever
    Liz - omfg rampage(lol), will not bring melee, ever
    Chaos - omfg armorrr, will not bring melee, ever
    Beastman - omfg no armorrr, will not bring melee, ever
    Vamps - omfg fear causing zombies, will not bring melee, ever
    Brets - omfg expendable peasants, will not bring melee, ever
    Orks - omfg wagghh, will not bring melee, ever

    that's exaggeration, do you have any insightful comments besids trolling?
    It's not an exaggeration, it is complete nonsense :).

    Exaggeration has to take a concept that makes sense first, then apply reductio ad absurdum in an effort to discredit it

    Yst posts generally make little sense, as they are a mix of trolling and poorly hidden desire to buff or prevent nerfs to his favourite draw kiting tools.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,515
    edited August 2018
    Omg 30s my army is destroyed.
    ^
    It's not an exaggeration, it is complete nonsense :).

    Exaggeration has to take a concept that makes sense first, then apply reductio ad absurdum in an effort to discredit it. In this case total discrediting waagh

    This is pretty much like ppl complaining about getting fear from fighting undead, zomg my melee fear skellies, fear is bad mechanic and will not help vamps/tombs in future content, its holding them back.

    Its very simple, its only a 30s buff, who cares about it being map wide, its easily 1 off at most cases, no orc commander will put their lord in hards way for the whole thing to cooldown, apart from bashing expendables.

    Autohit is NOT autowound, goblin isnt going godmode and bashing chosens. If ure frikking putting all your chosens at the front to take charge from black orcs with waagh, u frikking deserve to lose. Can easily screen it off with 1-2 maras 2h with a chosen 2h within, they dont waggh u win the trade exhaust their front. They waaagh, u wipe them witht he rest of the reserves.

    Bad troop management have absolutely nothing to do with waagh, u die regardless.
    Post edited by yst on
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,515

    prevent nerfs to his favourite draw kiting tools.

    Lol pls, no one wants that more than me.

    Imagine those noobs finally seeing the true rank without draw kite, prolly enrage them. Everyone of those jelly people pray draw kite stays in game so they can discredit others.

    Go on and remove draw kite, that would make my climb so much easier lol, no need to waste my time on forest draw campers, full cav kiters etc

    Then again who wants draw to be removed lol, how will they ever find anything else to discredit others?
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  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 22,378
    Everyone needs to stop the personal comments, right now.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • natesos1natesos1 Registered Users Posts: 159
    Not effective at high level play I don't know about that, but the reason I think they added it is cause without the map wide area of effect the greenskins army has to be kind of small and compact to get the max out of it which was not very orkish, and you are wrong about balance all greenskin units are balanced around the wagh from day one, and it become very hard to keep it balance if all units have to be around the lord to be effective now you have to work for it and its more realistic lore wise.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,659
    It's a myth that Greenskins have always been balanced around Waaaagh! They were perfectly fine in game 1 with old Waaaagh! system. They relied on charge bonus and high HP pools, with Waaagh! being used to help in specific area of the battle. This bonuses they get now far, far surpass what killing power they lost compared to game 1, due to higher HP pools. And they get speed and huge melee attack bonus.

    If you want to talk about "not Orcish", keeping lord hidden in a forest so he can't be killed off before melee starts and Waaagh! get's popped, is infinitely more "not Orcish".

    It is definitely less effective on higher level because there will be no frontline for the Greenskins. On lower levels of play, it will be absolutely devastating, as numbers have shown.

    And balance would be affected, since you no longer have just to take into account how much will a unit be more powerful, but also think about how Waaaagh! buffs would affect all that, which makes it a much more complicated issue.

    We've seen that with Mortis Engine and Vampires...

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure Waaaagh! will be addressed in some way, but I don't want it just dialed down, because it will still affect balancing GS units in the long term. Some reimagining is required...

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    They should replace the MA bonus with a damage bonus.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,449

    They should replace the MA bonus with a damage bonus.

    This is a good idea, maybe the only good idea of this thread. So make it give +50% normal damage +50% ap damage maybe?
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,614
    edited August 2018

    They should replace the MA bonus with a damage bonus.

    This is a good idea, maybe the only good idea of this thread. So make it give +50% normal damage +50% ap damage maybe?
    so you want to cure cancer with poison? Good idea :)
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited August 2018
    It's more thematically fitting because WAAGH makes Greenskins more eagerly fighty and not more precise. Although +50% WS and +50% AP sounds out of proportion.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,447
    yst said:

    Its like ppl here have no clue here we go exists. U know the spell orc players been spamming since 2016

    This is so much less dangerous than murderous prowess which uve absolutely no idea when it could trigger, and entire delf roster r embedded in it. And they suffers none of these points

    Ere we go is the old waaagh for wom. It can be really good if you get a good cast but it costs a decent amount of wom. Its in a good place i think, but it certainly wouldnt be if it became an armywide +26ma buff for the same wom cost.

    And murderous prowess needs to be

    It's a myth that Greenskins have always been balanced around Waaaagh! They were perfectly fine in game 1 with old Waaaagh! system. They relied on charge bonus and high HP pools, with Waaagh! being used to help in specific area of the battle. This bonuses they get now far, far surpass what killing power they lost compared to game 1, due to higher HP pools. And they get speed and huge melee attack bonus.

    If you want to talk about "not Orcish", keeping lord hidden in a forest so he can't be killed off before melee starts and Waaagh! get's popped, is infinitely more "not Orcish".

    It is definitely less effective on higher level because there will be no frontline for the Greenskins. On lower levels of play, it will be absolutely devastating, as numbers have shown.

    And balance would be affected, since you no longer have just to take into account how much will a unit be more powerful, but also think about how Waaaagh! buffs would affect all that, which makes it a much more complicated issue.

    We've seen that with Mortis Engine and Vampires...

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure Waaaagh! will be addressed in some way, but I don't want it just dialed down, because it will still affect balancing GS units in the long term. Some reimagining is required...

    Im more of the opinion that it just needs to be dualed down, as it really adds a lot of flavor to the faction, much like murderous prowess does for dark elves.

    Yes, lords hide in the forest now to make sure they get their waaagh off, but there are better ways to fix that issue. One way would be to make any cooldown increase caused by arcane unforging or similar abilities recharge automatically, not just in melee. Waaaagh also encourages lords to go in melee more if you want to use the ability more than once.

    I think the army wide waaaggh was a good idea, it just needs to be dialed in better. It should be a substantial buff, but not one the prettymuch guarantees greenskins winning the front line.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,449

    They should replace the MA bonus with a damage bonus.

    This is a good idea, maybe the only good idea of this thread. So make it give +50% normal damage +50% ap damage maybe

    It's more thematically fitting because WAAGH makes Greenskins more eagerly fighty and not more precise. Although +50% WS and +50% AP sounds out of proportion.

    Ok so +30% on both?
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 515
    edited September 2018
    I'd like to see the bonus shifted to a charge bonus rather than a straight +ma.

    The idea being that for 30 secs, any greenskin charge will be extra devastating. Not units already engaged, just a unit that gets a charge, and as charge bonuses wear off more quickly, it would be (slightly) less damaging to the opponent's army. And if you miss your charge, oh well, you've been outplayed.

    Moving on. It would be great (as some have mentioned) to see a Waaagh bar at the top of the screen. Have it start full with one use, and have it charge with units engaged in melee or damage delt. Disable it if the lord dies, or detract 50-75% of the current bar so it is still useful.

    A small leadership buff might be nice for units already engaged, to show them staying in the fight, because greenskin leadership is horrendous.

    But CA is hopefully intent on an overhaul (or a fresh lick of paint as the said in the ama). Greenskins need to be tweaked both is sp and mp, I'm hopeful that they will playtest it and get it right.
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