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Total War Warhammer 3: How CA should improve the Victory Conditions, Endgame and why the End Times w

IrongutIrongut Junior MemberPosts: 27Registered Users
After thinking about what CA could add and improve in game 3, a few quit interesting ideas come to my mind. This are solely about the game progress, how to improve the general pacing of the campaign and give the player at the end a real challenge without being annoying as it is currently for some players.



I finished a Lizardmen campaign as Mazdamundi a few days ago and it was very dragging. Simply because I need to conquer 8 settlements Mazdamundi would never have interest in. Why I should occupy Kislev or even be allied with Kislev in the first place? Mazda don't care about humans and when only to have some kind of bullet sponge for chaos.



CA already said they wanna improve the victory conditions so I wanna give them a little idea of how they could do it ;)

My idea is to have not 2 but 3 conditions all of them quit balanced for every gamer. Short, Long and End Times.

As an Example I'm using the Empire.



Short Campagne:

Here you just need to conquer and occupy all Empire Provinces and also make sure you destroy the Vampire Counts. That's it! you don't need to play 200 turns for this and perfect for players who don't like to play a atrocious long Campagne just to see the Victory screen. Many players break up there campaign anyway around 50 to 100 turns. But if you want to play longer, things getting more interesting from now on.



Long Campagne:

Here your Conditions are to hold all Empire Provinces + conquer a specific amount of more settlements, which one is up to you. You also need a specific amount of units. But here you now get something new. I call it the midgame crisis. This is basically a dilemma which is quit random to give the player more replayability because they can change each campaign.

How it works:

A Dilemma shows up where the dwarfs accuse you for the murdering of traders. Now you need to choose dilemma options and try to calm them down or you could provoke them which could lead to war. You get a few of them and with each the chances of war will be higher or lower. So you won't be instantly at war with your best allie but have the chance to make things right, or worse. This could also happen with other factions like bretonnia, woodelfs or Kislev , this is just an example.

Another one would be a Dilemma which could lead your faction into a civil war, again depending on the choices you make.

Alongside those requirements the midgame gets harder and you will be noticed that a huge army of a random evil faction will roaming through your land. But instead of instantly spawn an army somewhere which people don't like about the incursions in the Vortex campaign, the game gives you a few turns to prepare yourself. Norscans come from north, Darkelfs come from the west, Chaosdwarfs come from the east and so on. So you know where to defend your empire.



The End Times Campagne:

This is probably the most controversial part of my idea. The idea is it the Endgame crisis does randomly choose 1 of 4 endgame events inspired by the official Endtimes. You just need to survive. That's it! To do it you need to defeat the leader and while he is recovering you need to destroy he's main settlement in an epic last questbattle simliar how the end game for bretonnia works. You can also prevent a specific crisis from happening by destroying or occupying their main settlement before the endgame starts. So as an example you play as Khemri and occupy the black pyramid and destroy the followers of nagash there won't be Nahash's endgame crisis. This could lead to not happening of any crisis but this is up to CA to find a balance here. Keep in mind those endgame events are meant to be hard, very hard! It should be a challenge for everyone who hate it to steamroll everything in the lategame.



The 4 endgame events are:

Chaos Undivided: Lead by Archaon and spawns 5 doomstack armys around the map similar to how the chaos invasion works now. Those armys consists of Chaos warriors, beastmen and daemons. One in the chaos wastes, one in the southland, one in Lustria, one in Naggaroth and one in Ulthuan. As long Archaon or the leader of the 4 other chaos armys lives more and more armys will spawn over time so better hurry up or will will be overrun. As settlement I could see a chaos fortress in the chaoswastes. Well no one said it would be easy. :P

The Under Empire: Lead by Skreech Verminking you will only encounter Skaven here. Each province or maybe even
every settlement (not sure if it would be too over the top) spawns a skaven army and they try to and conquer everthing
on the map. Only Ulthuan and Athel Loren won't have those invasions. The armys will only spawns once and from now
on they will work basically as a normal faction. Make yourself ready to fight everywhere! As main settlement
Skavenblight fits well.



3. Legions of the Necromancer: Nahash my friends! He spawns at his pyramid and with him around 20 Doomstacks of
Undead armys consist of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings units. He will only spawn from one location and will spread
from there over the whole map. He is by far the toughest of all leaders, you will lose many men in battle. As I said he's
main settlement is the Black Pyramid of Nagash.



4. Realm of the Witch King: Yes I doesn't make much sense to put Malekith into the role of the leader of all elfs but from a
gamplay perspective he would be quit interesting. On all minor elf faction provinces rebel armys will spawn and occupy
them. This leads to a massive Faction involving most of the territory of naggaroth, ulthuan and athel loren. Only the
other Elfen Mayor Factions will stay and fight him. Malekith armys will consist of all elfen units of all three factions.
After the rebellions are over he will work as a normal faction and attacks everyone.



So even after you manage to survive this somehow CA should at least doing one cinematic video to show the player that he achieved something big. Also after this all factions shouldn't declare war on each other. This doesn't make much sense in Game 1 and 2 after you defeat Archaon.



So that's it. I hope you like my ideas or have your own thoughts about what you want to add or change. Feel free to discuss.
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Comments

  • TRexTRex Posts: 358Registered Users
    I've a few ideas.

    Albion, Araby, army painter, officers, put sound effects on slow motion (or slow the battles).

    And use the Thrones of Britannia maps.
  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    TRex said:

    I've a few ideas.

    Albion, Araby, army painter, officers, put sound effects on slow motion (or slow the battles).

    And use the Thrones of Britannia maps.

    Nice but this post is purely about endgame and victory conditions.
  • stankgangstastankgangsta Junior Member Posts: 236Registered Users
    After completing multiple long campaigns, taking Naggoroth always feels like a drag
  • FraxinusFraxinus Posts: 212Registered Users
    Honestly, the main problem I see with long campaigns in Total War right now is pretty simple - the end is always anticlimactic. The major events of the campaign usually happen long before you meet the Long Victory conditions.

    The reason for this is that - with some exceptions - generally everyone spawns near their arch-rival. The Dwarf and Greenskin capitols are in literally neighboring provinces. Altdorf is a stone's throw away from Bretonnia. Khazrak spawns just around the corner from Athel Loren. I could go on.

    What happens in these situations is defeating your main rival becomes the early-to-mid-game objective instead of the end-game objective. As the Dwarves, you can kill Grimgor and Queek, take back Eight Peaks, rebuild the Karaz Ankor... and still be a long way from victory. Shouldn't that be victory? What else would the Dwarves do, in the lore? They have no reason to go after the territory of the manlings. I suppose they could cross the ocean and have the War of Vengeance Round 2, but I'm pretty sure most Dwarf leaders nowadays realize that would be a generally bad idea for the state of the world in general.

    Likewise, as Naggarond, you could unify all the Dark Elves and conquer Ulthuan, and still have lots to do before official victory. This is, I think, the main reason why so many people give up on their campaigns. The main objective of their faction has already been accomplished. Most people who play Tyrion don't want to go across the sea and conquer the Old World, they just want to secure Ulthuan, kill Malekith, and call it a day.

    I see a couple solutions to this - either reduce the victory conditions to something more lore-appropriate, or get more creative in start locations and objectives. They've been getting better about this recently - Grand Hierophant Khatep who starts in Naggaroth, for example.

    There is one other problem to late-game campaigns, which is AI army elite spam. Because of the way AI economy works, AI factions get a bunch of free money and somehow can still support two full armies with only one settlement. Don't ask me how. On top of this, they build their armies like a fat kid in a candy store. It gets REALLY TIRESOME to constantly fight full stacks of nothing but high-tier units over and over again. During one conquest of Ulthuan, I was about ready to commit seppuku after the fifth time that I had to deal with a 20-stack army that was basically nothing but Swordmasters, archers of some description, and phoenixes / dragons.

    The solution to this one is easy - cut back on AI economy (seriously, they don't need that much free money) and force them to build their armies more like a real person would. I don't want to fight sixteen stacks of Greatswords and three artillery pieces. Not only is that not fun, it's immersion-breaking. Fix it.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Posts: 1,864Registered Users
    Grombrindal hunting down Malekith and burning Naggarond to the ground would be a great victory condition as well!
  • BrakierBrakier Posts: 1,520Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    i dont think alot of people go after victory conditions, they play untill they get immensly powerful so none can stand in thier way, then they restart whit a diffrent race.

    pretty sure this is true for all total war games. atleast that has been like that for me, i do the quest that gives nice rewards, but i see no point in going after victory conditions that dosent have a nice reward. winning the game is just dominating everything. as its always been.

  • KelefaneKelefane Posts: 767Registered Users
    Painting the map is fine with me. I love the sandbox / open ended style ME has.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 12,108Registered Users
    I don't like any of these specific ideas.

    The general idea of having more events such as a vermintide, huge WAGGGHHHHH, Brettonian Crusade or others is a good one. It just needs to make sense and be loreful.

    In terms of objectives I'm pretty meh on this. Objectives in Vortex work because they're tied to gameplay. ME objectives are meaningless because they have no impact on gameplay. To make objectives important they'd need to be tied to gameplay.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • TRexTRex Posts: 358Registered Users
    Something i'd like, more care taken with the custom army battles.

    I'd love to be able to save my formation. I'd also like an army viewer and army painter so i could enjoy looking at my army and tweak the formation and stuff without having to load a battle. It's the best part of the game for me. I'd like a fight league function as well, where i could literally have a fight club league of my army and every other race.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 6,117Registered Users
    I dont like the ideas but having said that:

    Only Bretonnia has good victory conditions. The others are terrible. I am glad CA has said they are going to fix them.

    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 6,117Registered Users
    Fraxinus said:

    Honestly, the main problem I see with long campaigns in Total War right now is pretty simple - the end is always anticlimactic. The major events of the campaign usually happen long before you meet the Long Victory conditions.

    The reason for this is that - with some exceptions - generally everyone spawns near their arch-rival. The Dwarf and Greenskin capitols are in literally neighboring provinces. Altdorf is a stone's throw away from Bretonnia. Khazrak spawns just around the corner from Athel Loren. I could go on.

    What happens in these situations is defeating your main rival becomes the early-to-mid-game objective instead of the end-game objective. As the Dwarves, you can kill Grimgor and Queek, take back Eight Peaks, rebuild the Karaz Ankor... and still be a long way from victory. Shouldn't that be victory? What else would the Dwarves do, in the lore? They have no reason to go after the territory of the manlings. I suppose they could cross the ocean and have the War of Vengeance Round 2, but I'm pretty sure most Dwarf leaders nowadays realize that would be a generally bad idea for the state of the world in general.

    Likewise, as Naggarond, you could unify all the Dark Elves and conquer Ulthuan, and still have lots to do before official victory. This is, I think, the main reason why so many people give up on their campaigns. The main objective of their faction has already been accomplished. Most people who play Tyrion don't want to go across the sea and conquer the Old World, they just want to secure Ulthuan, kill Malekith, and call it a day.

    I see a couple solutions to this - either reduce the victory conditions to something more lore-appropriate, or get more creative in start locations and objectives. They've been getting better about this recently - Grand Hierophant Khatep who starts in Naggaroth, for example.

    There is one other problem to late-game campaigns, which is AI army elite spam. Because of the way AI economy works, AI factions get a bunch of free money and somehow can still support two full armies with only one settlement. Don't ask me how. On top of this, they build their armies like a fat kid in a candy store. It gets REALLY TIRESOME to constantly fight full stacks of nothing but high-tier units over and over again. During one conquest of Ulthuan, I was about ready to commit seppuku after the fifth time that I had to deal with a 20-stack army that was basically nothing but Swordmasters, archers of some description, and phoenixes / dragons.

    The solution to this one is easy - cut back on AI economy (seriously, they don't need that much free money) and force them to build their armies more like a real person would. I don't want to fight sixteen stacks of Greatswords and three artillery pieces. Not only is that not fun, it's immersion-breaking. Fix it.

    I agree with this.

    I have been playing a VH empire campaign on the beta patch.

    Great fun. I am 150 turns in and have taken all of the empire. Around turn 100 i had to save the dwarfs who just had karaz a karak left from the greenskins (awesome green tide CA!). They were str rank 1 and so many stacks.

    I have beaten them back and destroyed key settlements (black crag etc)

    I am allied with wood elves, high elves and dwarfs. Archaon is coming and once he is dead i will stop the campaign. I do not feel like taking over every major capital in the world as empire. It makes no sense in the lore.

    Also ive beaten back maybe 30 greenskin stacks. All of them, and i mean all, were a large base of nothing but black orcs (8-10), a couple of archers, a couple of cav and 2-3 giants. So i guess regular orcs and gobbos dont exist in the world....

    I would love to see loreful armies for both the player and the ai.

    As is now it is all swordmasters, black orcs etc
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 6,117Registered Users
    Despite the above complaints the campaign has never been better CA.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • TotalWar78TotalWar78 Posts: 141Registered Users
    Im sometimes amazed by the lack of imagination and creativity some people have. We have one of most amazing franchises combined with Total War game and all some people want is to fight couple of battles or paint the map and thats it.
    All ideas from this post would make this game much more amazing. Only thing i would change is when Naggash come, then undead armys spawn all around the world.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,380Registered Users
    Fraxinus said:

    Likewise, as Naggarond, you could unify all the Dark Elves and conquer Ulthuan, and still have lots to do before official victory. This is, I think, the main reason why so many people give up on their campaigns. The main objective of their faction has already been accomplished. Most people who play Tyrion don't want to go across the sea and conquer the Old World, they just want to secure Ulthuan, kill Malekith, and call it a day.

    I see a couple solutions to this - either reduce the victory conditions to something more lore-appropriate, or get more creative in start locations and objectives. They've been getting better about this recently - Grand Hierophant Khatep who starts in Naggaroth, for example.

    I think one thing that people often forget here is that you don't need to hold the requisite number of major cities yourself. Military allies count.

    This means a diplomatic victory is possible, and you don't need to attack your natural allies in order to achieve your objectives. The High Elves, for instance, don't need to take over the Old World, but could act to support another race in doing so and have that race's conquests count through a military alliance. The influence mechanic probably makes the High Elves the most suited for this - primarily through using influence to try to prevent allies from attacking one another - but with other races you could still try to maintain good relations with multiple factions and snipe the win through forming multiple alliances at once.
  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    I see the problem you guys have. the thing is I give some solution to those problems.
    The victory conditions are generaly shorter and more tied to the progress the player really does instead of some rather random things CA wants you to do to stretch the campaigne artificialy.
    As High Elfs of curse most players will secure the island and then defeat naggaroth and then say its done. In my opinion a short V. C. should be like this but if you want to play longer you can perfectly do this by new more unpredictable events which makes each game even more unique. And then people are mostly so strong they steamroll anything anyways. And for those the Endtimes V. C. is perfect to see if their giant kingdom survies and give the player a true enemy to fight against. And yes people who don't like this and want to rather paint the world there should be a toggleable button at the start of a new campaigne.
  • adjungadjung Posts: 119Registered Users
    TRex said:

    I've a few ideas.

    Albion, Araby, army painter, officers, put sound effects on slow motion (or slow the battles).

    And use the Thrones of Britannia maps.

    :neutral:

    Dude, Irongut made a long post in which he probably put a lot of thought and effort into and the best you can come up with is:

    "uhhhh I want something completely unrelated and I will ignore your post completely"



    How rude! This is what I find the most frustrating about this forum. Someone comes up with a carefully crafted idea, and the first comment is about something completely unrelated. If you want YOUR topics to be dicussed, open your own thread.

    Having said that, I agree with @Irongut that the endgame should be improved. However, I think the numbers/proportions are a bit off. Skaven stacks in EVERY province? Doesn't sound like fun, same with 20 stacks of Nagash followers. Generally, I like the idea of more individual victory conditions, so the game will tell you to conquer places that are interesting for your race specifically.

    Some things to improve the campaign:

    The battle against Archaon or a rival that is important to the player faction should be a proper quest battle with cinematics, both in small campaign and in ME. Same with sieges of Karak 8 Peaks and other major cities.

    End game dilemmas (similar to what Irongut suggested) which make the player decide for an invasion that has to be dealt with and more global events in general.



    Forward onto Slaughter.
  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    adjung said:

    TRex said:

    I've a few ideas.

    Albion, Araby, army painter, officers, put sound effects on slow motion (or slow the battles).

    And use the Thrones of Britannia maps.

    :neutral:

    Dude, Irongut made a long post in which he probably put a lot of thought and effort into and the best you can come up with is:

    "uhhhh I want something completely unrelated and I will ignore your post completely"



    How rude! This is what I find the most frustrating about this forum. Someone comes up with a carefully crafted idea, and the first comment is about something completely unrelated. If you want YOUR topics to be dicussed, open your own thread.

    Having said that, I agree with @Irongut that the endgame should be improved. However, I think the numbers/proportions are a bit off. Skaven stacks in EVERY province? Doesn't sound like fun, same with 20 stacks of Nagash followers. Generally, I like the idea of more individual victory conditions, so the game will tell you to conquer places that are interesting for your race specifically.

    Some things to improve the campaign:

    The battle against Archaon or a rival that is important to the player faction should be a proper quest battle with cinematics, both in small campaign and in ME. Same with sieges of Karak 8 Peaks and other major cities.

    End game dilemmas (similar to what Irongut suggested) which make the player decide for an invasion that has to be dealt with and more global events in general.

    Thank you very much :)

    things like the skaven invasion in every settlement is of curse subject to change, those are just rough ideas how an endgame event could looks like. I agree this is a little bit to hard and need to be balanced.

    Yes completly agree with the cinematics for questbattles. Imagine fighting archaon in the chaoswastes and you need to deal with wariiors, daemons, beastmen and basically every chaos faction comes against you and you will be supported by other order faction. Just let this think for a moment.
  • TotalBorehammerTotalBorehammer Posts: 701Registered Users
    What we need, in addition to improved and more loreful standard short and long victory conditions, are the ability to select (or mod) our own victory conditions. Without this the game will have limited replayability.

    And we can only dream about a campaign map editor... sigh.
    CA have a Facebook page... use the comments section of their posts and express your thoughts on ME poor quality/delays etc https://www.facebook.com/CreativeAssembly/ :)
  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    Richdog said:

    What we need, in addition to improved and more loreful standard short and long victory conditions, are the ability to select (or mod) our own victory conditions. Without this the game will have limited replayability.

    And we can only dream about a campaign map editor... sigh.

    yes :/
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 12,108Registered Users
    Why would victory conditions -as they are in ME- affect replayabilty? Right now I'd suggest the majority of players simply ignore them.

    If the game is a sandbox (which ME currently is) then the best way to add replayability is to add variation between runs and improve the product. For objectives to come into play the game would need to be story driven, like the Vortex is. Without that they're just a list of tick boxes the player may or may not choose to tick.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Lord_KamionLord_Kamion Posts: 957Registered Users
    Would love for this to work. But to work, it’d need to be optional. Say a sandbox mode, and an end times mode.

    The idea of a random invasion is a great idea. Would add so much quality more impact to end games.

    One idea that I saw floated around when WH2 was first coming out was an end times mode, wherein you started as a fully developed nation. I.E High Elves hold all of Ulthuan with mostly completed provinces and all LL. And literal hell breaks loose. Either in Chaos, Skaven, Undead form. Full on stack after stack of doom stacks. And you have to fight it back, with the help of the other order races. Think it would be an amazing mode to fight alongside full strength dwarf, Wood elf, empire factions. Rather than whatever is left over at the end of the campaign

  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users

    Why would victory conditions -as they are in ME- affect replayabilty? Right now I'd suggest the majority of players simply ignore them.

    If the game is a sandbox (which ME currently is) then the best way to add replayability is to add variation between runs and improve the product. For objectives to come into play the game would need to be story driven, like the Vortex is. Without that they're just a list of tick boxes the player may or may not choose to tick.

    I find it quit interesting to give the player more unpredictable things for a better challenge because if you play as a good old world faction you always allie with the other order factions and then steamroll the evil factions. There would still be the sandbox because you could prevent those crisis from happening.
  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users

    Would love for this to work. But to work, it’d need to be optional. Say a sandbox mode, and an end times mode.

    The idea of a random invasion is a great idea. Would add so much quality more impact to end games.

    One idea that I saw floated around when WH2 was first coming out was an end times mode, wherein you started as a fully developed nation. I.E High Elves hold all of Ulthuan with mostly completed provinces and all LL. And literal hell breaks loose. Either in Chaos, Skaven, Undead form. Full on stack after stack of doom stacks. And you have to fight it back, with the help of the other order races. Think it would be an amazing mode to fight alongside full strength dwarf, Wood elf, empire factions. Rather than whatever is left over at the end of the campaign

    Jep thats the idea behind the endtimes V. C.
  • ArsenicArsenic Posts: 3,801Registered Users
    Victory conditions should lead to an endgame scenario.

    Say you're a Greenskin, well, take and own Kazak A Karak. Admittedly that shouldn't be too difficult, as Dwarves are always too busy sitting on their golden toilets and fluffing their beards to put up any kind of real defence.

    This leads to the Endgame scenario; every Dwarf hold declaring war on you and marching to take it back.

    Every Dwarf will automatically make peace with their rivals and march on you with the express aim of chopping you up, frying you in garlic, and making a mushroom omelette.

    As it's the seat of the High King it automatically becomes the main settlement of the main Dwarf faction, or brings said fact back into existence if previously wiped out. The Dwarf faction that won the settlement back if a minor one or Clan Angrund gets diplomatic bonuses up the wazzoo, a significant number of extra XP points for it's characters, and a wodge of money.




  • RazmirthRazmirth Posts: 1,904Registered Users
    I’m all for other victory conditions in ME. I enjoyed beastmens killing empire and Bretonnia. But most factions are just global domination. Vampire counts taking jungles across the world, dwarves living in open wastelands, tomb kings expanding outside their kingdoms...meh. Only race that it makes sense for global domination is Skaven and chaos/Norca. Other factions wouldn’t have much interest in conquering the world. Especially since many of the factions are allies like high elves and empire/Bretonnia.
  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    Arsenic said:

    Victory conditions should lead to an endgame scenario.

    Say you're a Greenskin, well, take and own Kazak A Karak. Admittedly that shouldn't be too difficult, as Dwarves are always too busy sitting on their golden toilets and fluffing their beards to put up any kind of real defence.

    This leads to the Endgame scenario; every Dwarf hold declaring war on you and marching to take it back.

    Every Dwarf will automatically make peace with their rivals and march on you with the express aim of chopping you up, frying you in garlic, and making a mushroom omelette.

    As it's the seat of the High King it automatically becomes the main settlement of the main Dwarf faction, or brings said fact back into existence if previously wiped out. The Dwarf faction that won the settlement back if a minor one or Clan Angrund gets diplomatic bonuses up the wazzoo, a significant number of extra XP points for it's characters, and a wodge of money.


    That's the spirit im talking about
  • IrongutIrongut Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    Razmirth said:

    I’m all for other victory conditions in ME. I enjoyed beastmens killing empire and Bretonnia. But most factions are just global domination. Vampire counts taking jungles across the world, dwarves living in open wastelands, tomb kings expanding outside their kingdoms...meh. Only race that it makes sense for global domination is Skaven and chaos/Norca. Other factions wouldn’t have much interest in conquering the world. Especially since many of the factions are allies like high elves and empire/Bretonnia.

    Yes each faction needs their own conditions which also encourage the player to further play the game and not just steamroll everything.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 3,919Registered Users
    Definitely fun and entertaining ideas.




    True this:



    Only Bretonnia has good victory conditions. The others are terrible. I am glad CA has said they are going to fix them.

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 12,108Registered Users
    Irongut said:

    Why would victory conditions -as they are in ME- affect replayabilty? Right now I'd suggest the majority of players simply ignore them.

    If the game is a sandbox (which ME currently is) then the best way to add replayability is to add variation between runs and improve the product. For objectives to come into play the game would need to be story driven, like the Vortex is. Without that they're just a list of tick boxes the player may or may not choose to tick.

    I find it quit interesting to give the player more unpredictable things for a better challenge because if you play as a good old world faction you always allie with the other order factions and then steamroll the evil factions. There would still be the sandbox because you could prevent those crisis from happening.
    Which is just what I said. The Sandbox needs variability, but the way to do that is not story elements or objectives, unless they decide to make ME story based.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • EldrickEldrick Posts: 339Registered Users
    I have put in more than 3000hrs into TWW1 & 2, and probably only completed maybe 5 long victory conditions. Without being tied to rewards, the victory condions are just pointless and hollow.

    I tend to play for 200-250 turns per campaign and as a consequence I set my own conditions.

    I would suggest that the short conditions be tied to owning all traditional territories belonging to the faction (and get to choose a kingdom/empire wide buff similar to owning an entire province), levelling main LL to cap, completing all quests for LL items, and building all landmark buildings.

    Long victory could be around retaining above + killing x stacks of enemy armies, defeating chaos, recruiting and caping all available LL’s including quest items and a series of epic loreful quest battles.

    I haven’t put too much thought into this, maybe half hour or so including typing on my phone, which would seem to be about twice as long as CA put into thinking about the current victory conditions!

    Come on CA, this is a very good game and poor half cooked design choices like this hold this game back from being an epic game that will be revered generations after its release.
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