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raise HP pool by 10-15% across the board for all Elf factions

Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users
edited September 12 in Balancing Discussions
many advocates for buffs to presumably UP units conveniently fail to mention how said units often have advantages other than stats (high total health, high speed, high mass or just a strong synergy with the rest of the roster).

Since nobody ever mentions (conveniently) the advantages a unit has when asking for buffs, I thought I’d ask for a buff to my 2 favorite units, Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard. I propose to raise the HP of the first by 15% and the speed of the second to be in line with that of a unit that also apparently needs a buff - Stormvermin Halberds, that is 38. Should be no big deal. If that sounds like too much, I can even agree to shave off 1-2 points of MA or MD from both.

Also, while we’re at it, give us Steam Tank too. It’s trash and unplayable according to many, so this should also make no big difference since according to some, nobody will ever pick it anyway at $2200.
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Comments

  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,415Registered Users
    I'm not sure if you're serious. If so, I disagree highly. If this is a trolling scheme... I predict positive results.
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  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 890Registered Users
    Kayosiv said:

    I'm not sure if you're serious. If so, I disagree highly. If this is a trolling scheme... I predict positive results.

    Well, Dragon Princes on Demis were proposed before ( he said it was trolling ... ).
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,658Registered Users
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 237Registered Users
    I also want dragon princes given the same stats as grail knights!

    While we're at it, dwarfs could also use a very large unit. I advocate for a dragon for dwarfs.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 367Registered Users
    Cukie251 said:

    I also want dragon princes given the same stats as grail knights!

    While we're at it, dwarfs could also use a very large unit. I advocate for a dragon for dwarfs.

    To be fair, a dragon with stylish Dwarfen armour… and some gunners aboard... And some bombs... oh, it would look soooo sexy. Helloooo Temeraire of WH universe.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 812Registered Users
    Give lizardmen swordmasters and ill agree to elves getting steam tank.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users

    Give lizardmen swordmasters and ill agree to elves getting steam tank.

    why? According to these forums Swordmasters is OP with their 62 MA (?) but Steam Tank is trash. So u wanna trade OP vs trash unit? :D
  • XiphosXiphos Posts: 134Registered Users
    There's a reason elves have low hp pools...
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 890Registered Users
    Xiphos said:

    There's a reason elves have low hp pools...

    It is loling tread, dont think about it serious.
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Posts: 1,619Registered Users
    edited September 13
    Steam Tank for High Elves seemsgood
  • ystyst Posts: 3,550Registered Users
    edited September 13
    Indypride said:

    Steam Tank for High Elves seemsgood

    High elf version would be dif, likely comes with 3x 3k army wiping steam breath, 40++ def with and 25% missile resist. All the while costing just $1700, make it fly too lol

    Afterall it must be cheaper than other factions, coz elf
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  • c0rvusc0rvus Posts: 167Registered Users
    Well, if you would, make Sigvald the Phoenix King in the next installment.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 13,972Registered Users
    Yeah, if Elves got the STank, it'd get 100% ward save, three superpowered blasts that destroy entire armies from across the map and cost 600. And maybe ten bound FoBs for good measure.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 1,658Registered Users
    I like the steam dragon for the Dawi more. :wink:
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users
    edited September 13

    Yeah, if Elves got the STank, it'd get 100% ward save, three superpowered blasts that destroy entire armies from across the map and cost 600. And maybe ten bound FoBs for good measure.

    I actualy playtested the breath attack all of yesterday. To do what this forums claims it can do, not only do you need to be targeting infantry and from the side strictly and also from the appropriate angle, but your opponent should also not capitalize on the opportunity to shoot the Dragon while it’s breathing, fail to move the infantry unit and have a worthwhile unit to use the breath on to begin with. Also, targets like Chosen are actually super bad for breath because Chosen have a relatively loose formation. Best targets are stuff like Longbeards, SMoH, Executioners, Greatswords. Tight formation + not too many models to hit most of them and guarantee max HP damage. As these forums would put it, strictly a qq problem. I had breath attacks do as little as 800-1200 damage because of proper reaction, it’s possible to cancel them by shooting enough missiles and we’re talking about $2400 Dragon not some random $800 Basti that is just as good in melee but cost 3x less lol. Long story short, only way to do it reliably is to net + breath which is a whole different combo.

    tl;dr: usual qq of these forums about Elves, instead of learning to play easier to cry for the nerfhammer when actual point and click win simulators like GS and VC exist. HE are super easy to beat, very predictable elements that are almost in every list, only true OP unit is Alarielle, WE have a bit more variety but hell they don’t even have armored units lol and I can’t name one WE unit that is outright OP, they’re more annoying to play against and require specific counters but none are OP. DE are the only currently OP Elves in my opinion and nerfs to specific units in their roster are warranted. Or, even better, every faction can be brought to DE level in terms of list diversity and unit uniqueness.
  • ystyst Posts: 3,550Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    I had breath attacks do as little as 800-1200 damage

    Good lord, as little as 1k avg. lol and thats a single unit, immediate $150 isnt good enough. $450 reduction. An easy 3k side yields almost $500. Obviously a free sun drag just doing so

    Cracks the poo out of me these ppl lol, what a fantastic joke. Downramp every single non elf related issues, then immediately goes to defend the most underpriced unit that ever existed in game. Hahahahha
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 13,972Registered Users
    Clearly dragonbreath should do 10000+ damage and have unlimited charges, otherwise "High Elves where da' luv, CA???????"

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users
    yst said:

    Green0 said:

    I had breath attacks do as little as 800-1200 damage

    Good lord, as little as 1k avg. lol and thats a single unit, immediate $150 isnt good enough. $450 reduction. An easy 3k side yields almost $500. Obviously a free sun drag just doing so

    Cracks the poo out of me these ppl lol, what a fantastic joke. Downramp every single non elf related issues, then immediately goes to defend the most underpriced unit that ever existed in game. Hahahahha
    god forbid a unit that is only average in melee and has missile resistance only on Star Dragon (because 50 armor for $2000 Moon Dragon is pitiful) version also has some utility - if you want, we can remove breaths so that then Star Dragon never gets picked and you’re satisfied with your actual agenda lol of playing melee rush or whatever faction is best atm for draw kiting. Currently, Star Dragon is worth about $1200 in melee which means that you need to get $1200 of value from breath attacks. By the way, you can’t spam all 3 right away, there’s also a cooldown, not to mention 80 armor isn’t stellar to begin with, even Reiksguard can pin it down reliably if it doesn’t eat the charge.

    And I didn’t say Steam Tank was not in need of a buff. But you with all your experience must know that a) it’s already used successfully at high level of play, b) overbuffing it risks creating a toxic unit, let’s not pretend cycling with Chariots is something that isn’t already viable and you’re proposing to buff a chariot with 160 armor that can skirmish with 40 ammo from very long range. Frankly I see no reason for you to advocate for tank buffs other than your personal preference to play it. Maybe you haven’t played it in a while and want a new FotM unit, maybe it’s true that you enjoy draw kiting and this unit is indeed perfect for it.

    The buffs people are agreeing on are immunity to vigor (already worth at least $200 on a unit like this since at later stages in the game it means +50 armor and speed and MA as well) and -$150. Perhaps try that and see how it performs? Or you’d like straight reduction of $700 lol.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 13,972Registered Users
    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users
    edited September 13

    Clearly dragonbreath should do 10000+ damage and have unlimited charges, otherwise "High Elves where da' luv, CA???????"

    can’t believe people still qq about breaths lol, since release Elves got mostly nerfed. May I remind you of Tempest nerf (huge nerf), HE Archer accuracy nerf that (justly) prevents them from sniping small models (Mages etc.). Sisters of Avelorn are pretty trashy, why spend $1100 to do the job of a Glade Guard, in other rosters people would have cried for buffs but most HE players didn’t lol. Even now you actually need to work for them to pay for themselves, unlike Gunners who pay for themselves in like 2 volleys mostly and cost only $600 so who cares if they suffer a little from ranged or arty not to mention they can’t even be dodged. DE admittedly didn’t get nerfed so hard but only true overperforming units are Warlock and Sisters. Then Dragon breaths got hit hard by the nerfhammer but still ragers are gonna qq vs Elves lol. Let’s just remove breaths and see if people gonnq buy $2400 Dragon with 80 armor and 45 MD with no breaths lol. Meanwhile GS get armywide +26MA buff (for some units this is close to a +100% increase) and people thinks this is perfectly fine and balanced lol.
    Or VC Mortise Engine effect until last patch you didn’t even need to be in melee lol, great healing and great AL options yet VC players complained about the 1 matchup VC couldn’t win (vs HE resistance stacking) while smartly staying quiet about all the free wins they got handed over.

    Jokes aside, in my opinion there should be buffs to more or less every faction to keep the game healthy and balanced. What saddens me to see is that it seems everyone here has an agenda to promote his favorite faction instead.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users
    edited September 13

    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI. In the end, it’s most definitely not free damages. You might argue that the price isn’t right and we could go on a case-by-case analysis. But since a Dragon is most definitely not worth $2000+ for its mediocre melee, you do pay for those breaths.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

    By this argument, Steam Tank are free damages too. Longer range, good RoI and isn’t weak to skirmish or nets or tempest while firing (unlike Dragon).

    Like, tell me one specific matchup, I’ll tell you at least 1 unit that works well vs Dragon and doesn’t do terribly if Elf player doesn’t bring one. Let’s restrict the discussion to Star Dragon only perhaps because other 2 choices (aside from Black Dragon and Zombie one perhaps) have such pitiful armor values you can challenge them with Swordsmen in melee lol.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 13,972Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

    By this argument, Steam Tank are free damages too. Longer range, good RoI and isn’t weak to skirmish or nets or tempest while firing (unlike Dragon).
    STank is exhausted after firing its piddly gun four times.

    You have nothing.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

    By this argument, Steam Tank are free damages too. Longer range, good RoI and isn’t weak to skirmish or nets or tempest while firing (unlike Dragon).
    STank is exhausted after firing its piddly gun four times.

    You have nothing.
    In the other thread I said I view perfect vigor on Steam Tank (at least while firing but perhaps even globally) very favorably. Oversight and residue of game 1, hopefully will gain perfect vigor next patch which is a change I think nobody opposes honestly.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,396Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

    By this argument, Steam Tank are free damages too. Longer range, good RoI and isn’t weak to skirmish or nets or tempest while firing (unlike Dragon).
    STank is exhausted after firing its piddly gun four times.

    You have nothing.
    In the other thread I said I view perfect vigor on Steam Tank (at least while firing but perhaps even globally) very favorably. Oversight and residue of game 1, hopefully will gain perfect vigor next patch which is a change I think nobody opposes honestly.
    I do unless they fix unbreakable trait to chain rout with army losses to prevent draw kitting. I seen people draw kite with stank too many times to advocate for perfect vigour.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users
    edited September 13

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

    By this argument, Steam Tank are free damages too. Longer range, good RoI and isn’t weak to skirmish or nets or tempest while firing (unlike Dragon).
    STank is exhausted after firing its piddly gun four times.

    You have nothing.
    In the other thread I said I view perfect vigor on Steam Tank (at least while firing but perhaps even globally) very favorably. Oversight and residue of game 1, hopefully will gain perfect vigor next patch which is a change I think nobody opposes honestly.
    I do unless they fix unbreakable trait to chain rout with army losses to prevent draw kitting. I seen people draw kite with stank too many times to advocate for perfect vigour.
    true, although now it's not like it doesn't already happen with Volkmar. Sure, vs him you'd have to lose all cav to get draw kited but vs Empire that's a reasonable possibility. Idk maybe I believe too much in the good nature of people because I've been draw kited only twice. If I were a draw kiter though, I'd probably pick Empire or Dwarfs. Seem best 2 factions to draw kite by far.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 4,396Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

    By this argument, Steam Tank are free damages too. Longer range, good RoI and isn’t weak to skirmish or nets or tempest while firing (unlike Dragon).
    STank is exhausted after firing its piddly gun four times.

    You have nothing.
    In the other thread I said I view perfect vigor on Steam Tank (at least while firing but perhaps even globally) very favorably. Oversight and residue of game 1, hopefully will gain perfect vigor next patch which is a change I think nobody opposes honestly.
    I do unless they fix unbreakable trait to chain rout with army losses to prevent draw kitting. I seen people draw kite with stank too many times to advocate for perfect vigour.
    true, although now it's not like it doesn't already happen with Volkmar. Idk maybe I believe too much in the good nature of people because I've been draw kited only twice. If I were a draw kiter though, I'd probably pick Empire or Dwarfs. Seem best 2 factions to draw kite by far.
    i seen many people draw kite with unbreakable units such as stank or everwatcher its BS since if this was no the case i think perfect vigour for stank could be decent in exchange for some armour.
  • ystyst Posts: 3,550Registered Users
    edited September 13
    Green0 said:

    Currently, Star Dragon is worth about $1200 in melee which means that you need to get $1200 of value from breath attacks.

    That is incorrect, u can charge any demi, grails, every single ELITE cav in game and destroys them without even losing like 30% hp. Frikking rekts a terrogheist barely losing 25% hp, similar story with ror rank 10 demis. Destroys those $1600 giants like nothing. It even rekts a shaggoth on a front charge, trex etc. Not to mention it can also solo rekts like $3000 worth of vargs on the air. Destroys $2000 hip knights, again not even losing 30% hp

    Terrogheist AFTER 35 ANTI LARGE is only 61 att. Star dragon has 60 base att, and have a 54 def, only 2 def less than treeman at 56. Easily the STRONGEST unit in game

    $1200 in melee lol...... if star drag is $1200 in melee, whats steam tank lol $50?
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  • ystyst Posts: 3,550Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    has missile resistance only on Star Dragon

    Come on, everyone knows that wrong.
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 1,503Registered Users
    edited September 13
    yst said:

    Green0 said:

    has missile resistance only on Star Dragon

    Come on, everyone knows that wrong.
    missile resistance on Sdragon I mean due to armor, wasn’t referring to innate resist my bad. Even with innate resist it’s average at best vs missiles. Some monsters are better, some are worse, in terms of missile resistance Sdragon pretty much falls in the middle of the spectrum, maybe slightly above while Moon Dragon is pretty pathetic vs anything ranged with only 50 armor.

    Regarding frontal charge vs Grails and Demis, also wrong, these units are designed specifically to counter stuff like Sdragon... if they weren’t cost effective at that what would the point be lol? Now if you say GK struggle vs Stegadon/Basti/Kholek, definitely, but we’re talking about a +20 armor increase at the very least, meaning at least 75% of non AP gets negated.

    Haven’t tested vs Demis but I know for a fact that Grails pull down the Dragon while losing only 5-6 models if they charge... Even without charge, even if they lost (which they don’t), they trade very cost effectively, not to mention that they are able to pin the Dragon in place which most of the times results in its death due to support magic, dedicated AL hero (honestly you almost don’t even need AP vs Star Dragon, 80 armor is right between light and heavy armor). Demi result can’t differ too much from Grails, in fact due to AP I’d expect them to even outperform GK.

    What you’re mentioning is pretty much clean charge on each unit you mention, opponent doesn’t pull out, use nets or spells on Dragon and no support units either. Might as well be playing vs afk opponent. Here’s a funny fact, Grails counterpinning Sdragon once it lands prevent him from ever pulling out again even if you use Foe Seeker and pull him down while losing only about 15% HP or in a grind fight without charge maybe 40-50%... sure you might say that you can retreat into your PG but they assuming you bring Alariell I have to ask how small you want your HE army to be and how hard you wanna be swarmed by cheap Bret infantry.

    Moral of the story: choosing engagements wisely always pays off and Sdragon is no different lol. You pretty much always love to cherry pick the best/worst case scenario but surely being top3 on ladder one’d expect you’d know better.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 13,972Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Dragonbreath is free damage. You don't have to spend anything to apply it and so are encouraged to always blast the enemy with all charges and unless you suck massively you'll always get good RoI.

    Dragonbreath should cause massive fatigue spikes.

    By this argument, Steam Tank are free damages too. Longer range, good RoI and isn’t weak to skirmish or nets or tempest while firing (unlike Dragon).
    STank is exhausted after firing its piddly gun four times.

    You have nothing.
    In the other thread I said I view perfect vigor on Steam Tank (at least while firing but perhaps even globally) very favorably. Oversight and residue of game 1, hopefully will gain perfect vigor next patch which is a change I think nobody opposes honestly.
    I do unless they fix unbreakable trait to chain rout with army losses to prevent draw kitting. I seen people draw kite with stank too many times to advocate for perfect vigour.
    LoL. An Elf player demanding that other factions be nerfed to accomodate the knife ears. Business as usual.

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