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Get some lesson from Paradox

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  • Emperor_krkEmperor_krk Registered Users Posts: 23


    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Just curious - what makes Paradox a "mediocre" game development company?
  • arieviloarievilo Registered Users Posts: 15
    Ohh I hope they dont look to much at paradox DLC policy, I wouldnt like TW titles to be a DLC sea like paradox games....
  • SiWI#8629SiWI#8629 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,014
    edited September 2018
    Enforest said:

    SiWI said:

    I remember people complaining about the "what the devs are doing updates" because neither the Wh3 or DLC team had much to report.

    I remember certain forum users constantly complaining about complaining instead of providing actual feedback.
    Oh the certain people do provide feedback just not the one you like to hear.
    Post edited by SiWI#8629 on
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759
    Enforest said:

    We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work.

    Of course it doesn't with the absurd secrecy around CA projects. We've got info on the Q&C from a chinese digital goods website two weeks before the release. It almost felt like CA intentionally tried to kill any hype around it and made the marketing as poor as possible. Let's not forget the cringy riddles while we were waiting for the Khardibyss.

    There are diffirent way of keeping community informed with the upcoming product: releasing concept art and renders of the units, doing sneak peaks on unique campaign mechanics and LLs, etc. Stuff like that isn't made in days anyway, so what's the hold up?

    Many companies, Paradox and developers under them in particular, practice this kind of community interactions and nobody has any problems with this what so ever.

    edit: it's actually not just up to Paradox. Amplitude studios, who are also under SEGA just like CA themselves, are also very open and constantly provide various pre-views of the upcoming content and even have communty polls to shape it (don't really think we need it for TWW though). Just pointing it out to cease the "it's not CA, it's evil SEGA preventing them to announce their products earlier!!!"
    So what? Five months of teasing? No thanks.

    As I said that stuff works in different contexts, not this one. While CA can be different and better that's not the topic. The topic is about being like Paradox and that's simply a bad idea.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759


    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Just curious - what makes Paradox a "mediocre" game development company?
    Standard ratings, dlc which breaks the game for base owners, a lot of dlc, etc. I'm not going to bash them as I'm sure some folk like them and fair enough, but I'd prefer to ape the king, not a pretender. And if CA are going to ape someone it should be from a similar context, not virtually the opposite.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • FakeEmperorFakeEmperor Registered Users Posts: 595
    It will be useless, unless you want a weekly update on 3K development...
    They cannot say: "we are not working on WH2" , so they do not say nothing. CA is working mainly on 3K & WH3, another team was on Saga, Sofia team is on Rome 2... QnC take 4 months to be done because CA did not touch it for 3 months, then worked on it for like 2 weeks. Those 2 first weeks of May, the second half of May to advertise it, and then they left 3 or 4 people there to work on hydra's hat that took them onother month, while the rest of CA employees were back to 3K and WH3...
  • FakeEmperorFakeEmperor Registered Users Posts: 595
    Before spitting on Paradox "cuz too many DLC " remember that we are on a forum of a company that makes blood in a wargame, a DLC...
  • #28957#28957 Registered Users Posts: 2,768

    Enforest said:

    We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work.

    Of course it doesn't with the absurd secrecy around CA projects. We've got info on the Q&C from a chinese digital goods website two weeks before the release. It almost felt like CA intentionally tried to kill any hype around it and made the marketing as poor as possible. Let's not forget the cringy riddles while we were waiting for the Khardibyss.

    There are diffirent way of keeping community informed with the upcoming product: releasing concept art and renders of the units, doing sneak peaks on unique campaign mechanics and LLs, etc. Stuff like that isn't made in days anyway, so what's the hold up?

    Many companies, Paradox and developers under them in particular, practice this kind of community interactions and nobody has any problems with this what so ever.

    edit: it's actually not just up to Paradox. Amplitude studios, who are also under SEGA just like CA themselves, are also very open and constantly provide various pre-views of the upcoming content and even have communty polls to shape it (don't really think we need it for TWW though). Just pointing it out to cease the "it's not CA, it's evil SEGA preventing them to announce their products earlier!!!"
    So what? Five months of teasing? No thanks.

    As I said that stuff works in different contexts, not this one. While CA can be different and better that's not the topic. The topic is about being like Paradox and that's simply a bad idea.
    So what? Five months of silence when other companies have already made 11 blogs about their game releasing in 2019? No thanks.


    Never knew arguing could be that easy.
    Now I am known as "numbers".
  • Yekdo21Yekdo21 Registered Users Posts: 47
    Warlocke said:

    Yekdo21 said:

    That sounds terrible. I don't want meaningless fluff, if there's news give me news, if not don't. Simple.

    What exactly is meaningless fluff in those dev diaries?

    Paradox blogs are so numerous because they are a publisher as well as a developer and deal with many games and even their Paradox interactive titles are so riddled with tiny DLC's they need to constantly market them.

    So no.

    Dev diaries is not purely marketing, They even do it for free updates.

    My point is. I want some updates. And they should keep in touch with their players more.
    FLC is in itself a marketing strategy. Companies don’t update games for free without expecting to gain something for their work.
    Of course they are gonna gain something. It is a company, not a charity. Lol i really dont understand how can people so annoyed when somebody simply asks for more updated information.

    I never said make dlc every month but at least monthly or weekly let us know what the hell is going on. Once Grace said something like ‘we have different teams, unless you dont believe it’ showing her frustration. Well its because we dont have damn clue what the hell is going on. Leaks, secret contents are in the past. Players wants to get involved and feel more included
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759
    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work.

    Of course it doesn't with the absurd secrecy around CA projects. We've got info on the Q&C from a chinese digital goods website two weeks before the release. It almost felt like CA intentionally tried to kill any hype around it and made the marketing as poor as possible. Let's not forget the cringy riddles while we were waiting for the Khardibyss.

    There are diffirent way of keeping community informed with the upcoming product: releasing concept art and renders of the units, doing sneak peaks on unique campaign mechanics and LLs, etc. Stuff like that isn't made in days anyway, so what's the hold up?

    Many companies, Paradox and developers under them in particular, practice this kind of community interactions and nobody has any problems with this what so ever.

    edit: it's actually not just up to Paradox. Amplitude studios, who are also under SEGA just like CA themselves, are also very open and constantly provide various pre-views of the upcoming content and even have communty polls to shape it (don't really think we need it for TWW though). Just pointing it out to cease the "it's not CA, it's evil SEGA preventing them to announce their products earlier!!!"
    So what? Five months of teasing? No thanks.

    As I said that stuff works in different contexts, not this one. While CA can be different and better that's not the topic. The topic is about being like Paradox and that's simply a bad idea.
    So what? Five months of silence when other companies have already made 11 blogs about their game releasing in 2019? No thanks.
    Game releasing =/= DLC releasing. See above comments about context mattering.

    If you want endless news of nothing all good, but I sure don't.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • Zwirbaum#3466Zwirbaum#3466 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 392
    My take on it, and adressing couple things mentioned in this thread:

    A) 'Paradox releases sea of DLC very fast etc.'
    * - I'm in not the best shape today, so some miscalculations could happen
    Ok, so let's take a look at the time between 'expansions/dlc' and the time between each and another:

    EU IV:
    Conquest of Paradise 5 months
    Wealth of Nations almost 5 months
    Res Publica (mini-DLC - experiment), almost 2 months
    Art of War 3.5 months
    El Dorado 4 months
    Common Sense 4 months
    Cossacks 5 months
    Mare Nostrum 4 months
    Rights of Man 7 months
    Mandate of Heaven 6 months
    Third Rome 2 (small 'immersion pack' DLC) 2 months
    Cradle of Civilization 5 months
    Rule Britannia ('immersion pack') 4 months
    Dharma 6 months

    Average per DLC: 4.4642... Months

    As you can see, almost all the DLC have 4 or 4+ months between the release of previous DLC and the next, with exception of: Res Publica and Third Rome and Art of War (which had absolutely tremendous map update in the same patch update).

    CK2:
    Sword of Islam: 4 months
    Legacy of Rome: 4 months
    Sunset Invasion (mini-alternate history DLC, sort of experiment): 1 month
    Republic: 2 months
    Old Gods: 4 months
    Sons of Abraham: 6 months
    Rajas of India: 5 months
    Charlemagne: 7 months
    Way of Life: 2 months
    Horse Lords: 7 months
    Conclave: 5.5 months
    Reaper's Due: 6 months
    Monks and Mystic: 6 months
    Jade Dragon: 8 months
    Holy Fury: Release date no yet announced: so far 10 months since the last DLC release

    Average per DLC: 4.8214... (Not counting Holy Fury into this)

    One DLC with 1 month 'time between releases' and two with 2 months. Beside that - rest with 4 months or more.

    HoI IV:

    TfV: 6 months
    DoD: 6 months
    Waking the Tiger: 9 months
    Man the Guns: Release date not yet announced: so far 6 months

    Average per DLC: 7 (excluding Man the Guns)

    Stellaris:

    Leviathans: 5 months
    Utopia: 6 months
    Synthetic Dawn: 5 months
    Apocalypse: 5 months
    Distant Stars: 3 months

    Average per DLC: 4.8 months

    So, as we can see, majority of it averages above 4 months (4.4, 4.8, 4.82 and 7). So claiming that Paradox can share information weekly because of the short development cycle while CA can't because of their long 4+ months development cycle is just plain wrong.

    Now however - let's go the second point here:

    B) About the whole idea of having more regular Dev Diary system, like Paradox.

    I will first state that: I do love the Paradox system of sharing the information, transparency and communication between the devs and the community. Weekly Dev Diaries are excellent way to inform in-detail about the upcoming features, mechanics or the general vision of the changes. That said though:

    I don't think that would be really possible with the CA, and the Total War series, unless making radical changes to the development structure, method.

    Let's take a look at the one of their best DLC for the Warhammer 2 (well, not many too chose from :tongue: ).
    Tomb Kings.

    Now let's dissect what was featured in the DLC:

    Tomb Kings.

    Let's see what that included:

    1 Generic Lord, 4 Legendary Lords, 3 Heroes (5 if you want to split different Lores)

    5 Infantry Units, Missile Infantry Unit, 3 Cavalry/Chariot Units, 2 Missile Cavalry/Chariot Units, 11 Monsters, Beasts, Constructs units. 2 Artillery Units. 6 Regiments of Renown, 4 Legions of Legends units.

    Unique features: No upkeep, unit caps, Crafting, Dynasty Tech Tree, Books of Nagash, Tomb King Rites.

    So as you can see, there is not much information to spread over the weeks, especially when you're not ready to announce the DLC*

    * CA uses in their trailers, in-game footage, which basically means that unit models and animations must be ready. And it is kinda hard to talk for example about the unit roster, without showing units or saying to what faction they belong. Which leaves you with the features said for the faction:

    That gives you ability to talk about ~5 features, with spreading them each over the week, you get pretty paltry information about what is in the next expansion, and if not spreading, once again you run out of it in about 1-2 weeks.

    So, unless CA would decide to make announcment trailers for the DLC containing other kind of animation (not in-game ones) - I just don't see it that feasible, at least for the Warhammer game.

    If DLC for TW games, would include adding and reworking more of the game features (like for example rework of building system in patch 1, reworking trade in patch 2, reworking lord system in patch 3 etc. - you could get more information to share between the DLC) then it could be possible and would made sense.
  • #28957#28957 Registered Users Posts: 2,768


    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work.

    Of course it doesn't with the absurd secrecy around CA projects. We've got info on the Q&C from a chinese digital goods website two weeks before the release. It almost felt like CA intentionally tried to kill any hype around it and made the marketing as poor as possible. Let's not forget the cringy riddles while we were waiting for the Khardibyss.

    There are diffirent way of keeping community informed with the upcoming product: releasing concept art and renders of the units, doing sneak peaks on unique campaign mechanics and LLs, etc. Stuff like that isn't made in days anyway, so what's the hold up?

    Many companies, Paradox and developers under them in particular, practice this kind of community interactions and nobody has any problems with this what so ever.

    edit: it's actually not just up to Paradox. Amplitude studios, who are also under SEGA just like CA themselves, are also very open and constantly provide various pre-views of the upcoming content and even have communty polls to shape it (don't really think we need it for TWW though). Just pointing it out to cease the "it's not CA, it's evil SEGA preventing them to announce their products earlier!!!"
    So what? Five months of teasing? No thanks.

    As I said that stuff works in different contexts, not this one. While CA can be different and better that's not the topic. The topic is about being like Paradox and that's simply a bad idea.
    So what? Five months of silence when other companies have already made 11 blogs about their game releasing in 2019? No thanks.
    Game releasing =/= DLC releasing. See above comments about context mattering.

    If you want endless news of nothing all good, but I sure don't.
    Game releasing = DLC releasing on a smaller scale. Absolutely nothing stops CA from revealing the DLC two months before its release (not two weeks like they do) and post small blogs about upcoming features of the product. How is this "nothing" is beyond me.
    Now I am known as "numbers".
  • FakeEmperorFakeEmperor Registered Users Posts: 595
    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work.

    Of course it doesn't with the absurd secrecy around CA projects. We've got info on the Q&C from a chinese digital goods website two weeks before the release. It almost felt like CA intentionally tried to kill any hype around it and made the marketing as poor as possible. Let's not forget the cringy riddles while we were waiting for the Khardibyss.

    There are diffirent way of keeping community informed with the upcoming product: releasing concept art and renders of the units, doing sneak peaks on unique campaign mechanics and LLs, etc. Stuff like that isn't made in days anyway, so what's the hold up?

    Many companies, Paradox and developers under them in particular, practice this kind of community interactions and nobody has any problems with this what so ever.

    edit: it's actually not just up to Paradox. Amplitude studios, who are also under SEGA just like CA themselves, are also very open and constantly provide various pre-views of the upcoming content and even have communty polls to shape it (don't really think we need it for TWW though). Just pointing it out to cease the "it's not CA, it's evil SEGA preventing them to announce their products earlier!!!"
    So what? Five months of teasing? No thanks.

    As I said that stuff works in different contexts, not this one. While CA can be different and better that's not the topic. The topic is about being like Paradox and that's simply a bad idea.
    So what? Five months of silence when other companies have already made 11 blogs about their game releasing in 2019? No thanks.


    Never knew arguing could be that easy.
    CA is not silent. There is not a warhammer CA and a 3K CA. There is only CA. They made 3k podcast on 11th september, meet " that guy" on 7th september, only 4 days before... the game will be out in 2019..
    CA released news every week, but one time they were about Saga, another time were about 3K, another about Rome 2...
    If you are interested only on WH (like me), then you have to wait a long time between the " under the spotlight " thing.
    When CA say that they have different teams, i believe them; btw i still believe that they have something like 150 people in 3K team and 5 people on WH2..
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759
    Enforest said:


    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work.

    Of course it doesn't with the absurd secrecy around CA projects. We've got info on the Q&C from a chinese digital goods website two weeks before the release. It almost felt like CA intentionally tried to kill any hype around it and made the marketing as poor as possible. Let's not forget the cringy riddles while we were waiting for the Khardibyss.

    There are diffirent way of keeping community informed with the upcoming product: releasing concept art and renders of the units, doing sneak peaks on unique campaign mechanics and LLs, etc. Stuff like that isn't made in days anyway, so what's the hold up?

    Many companies, Paradox and developers under them in particular, practice this kind of community interactions and nobody has any problems with this what so ever.

    edit: it's actually not just up to Paradox. Amplitude studios, who are also under SEGA just like CA themselves, are also very open and constantly provide various pre-views of the upcoming content and even have communty polls to shape it (don't really think we need it for TWW though). Just pointing it out to cease the "it's not CA, it's evil SEGA preventing them to announce their products earlier!!!"
    So what? Five months of teasing? No thanks.

    As I said that stuff works in different contexts, not this one. While CA can be different and better that's not the topic. The topic is about being like Paradox and that's simply a bad idea.
    So what? Five months of silence when other companies have already made 11 blogs about their game releasing in 2019? No thanks.
    Game releasing =/= DLC releasing. See above comments about context mattering.

    If you want endless news of nothing all good, but I sure don't.
    Game releasing = DLC releasing on a smaller scale. Absolutely nothing stops CA from revealing the DLC two months before its release (not two weeks like they do) and post small blogs about upcoming features of the product. How is this "nothing" is beyond me.
    Nope.

    You've also veered off topic. OP wants communication to take lessons from Paradox which is a game publisher and developer that writes weekly blogs. Whatever your proposal is it's not OP's.

    As I've said that's simply not feasible when releasing a DLC once every four months. There is not 16 weeks of blogs there. There's an announcement and a handful of blogs looking at various aspects at best.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • #28957#28957 Registered Users Posts: 2,768

    Enforest said:


    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work.

    Of course it doesn't with the absurd secrecy around CA projects. We've got info on the Q&C from a chinese digital goods website two weeks before the release. It almost felt like CA intentionally tried to kill any hype around it and made the marketing as poor as possible. Let's not forget the cringy riddles while we were waiting for the Khardibyss.

    There are diffirent way of keeping community informed with the upcoming product: releasing concept art and renders of the units, doing sneak peaks on unique campaign mechanics and LLs, etc. Stuff like that isn't made in days anyway, so what's the hold up?

    Many companies, Paradox and developers under them in particular, practice this kind of community interactions and nobody has any problems with this what so ever.

    edit: it's actually not just up to Paradox. Amplitude studios, who are also under SEGA just like CA themselves, are also very open and constantly provide various pre-views of the upcoming content and even have communty polls to shape it (don't really think we need it for TWW though). Just pointing it out to cease the "it's not CA, it's evil SEGA preventing them to announce their products earlier!!!"
    So what? Five months of teasing? No thanks.

    As I said that stuff works in different contexts, not this one. While CA can be different and better that's not the topic. The topic is about being like Paradox and that's simply a bad idea.
    So what? Five months of silence when other companies have already made 11 blogs about their game releasing in 2019? No thanks.
    Game releasing =/= DLC releasing. See above comments about context mattering.

    If you want endless news of nothing all good, but I sure don't.
    Game releasing = DLC releasing on a smaller scale. Absolutely nothing stops CA from revealing the DLC two months before its release (not two weeks like they do) and post small blogs about upcoming features of the product. How is this "nothing" is beyond me.
    Nope.

    You've also veered off topic. OP wants communication to take lessons from Paradox which is a game publisher and developer that writes weekly blogs. Whatever your proposal is it's not OP's.

    As I've said that's simply not feasible when releasing a DLC once every four months. There is not 16 weeks of blogs there. There's an announcement and a handful of blogs looking at various aspects at best.
    Last thing I'd like to see is accusations from you about veering off topic.

    I've been explaining over a course of two pages how will OP suggestion work: IF the DLCs would have been announced earlier, then there would be an opportinuty for weekly blogs. Never said it must be 16 weeks of articles, at least 5-7 would suffice, stop pushing this nonsense already.

    Either way I am done with this pathetic circular argument.
    Now I am known as "numbers".
  • Tibi088Tibi088 Registered Users Posts: 178
    Thats why OP - and me too - would be happy with one such blog in every month.

    Also if they would write such teasers which you are sooo against than nobody would force you to read it. On the other hand some of us would be really happy for them.

    Sorry but your argument of "I dont want them so nobody should have them" is incredibly selfish.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038

    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    SiWI said:

    I remember people complaining about the "what the devs are doing updates" because neither the Wh3 or DLC team had much to report.

    I remember certain forum users constantly complaining about complaining instead of providing actual feedback.
    And I remember certain forum users complaining about others complaining about others complaining instead of providing actual feedback.

    The base point is a good one. Updates without new noteworthy information are pointless. Giving us trivia doesn't fix the problem that is slow content.
    That's why people are asking to change their communication policy to be a more community-friendly one.

    Paradox is a prime example of how community managers or even devs themselves can share information on upcoming updates and participate in discussions without being chained by NDA to the point of announcing the pack a few weeks before it's launch: check this out, for example https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/age-of-wonders-planetfall.1009/
    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Sure, we can ask for more information, but it simply can't be like Paradox while still being good. Context is -like my little brother- king.
    Please, I have read this exact same pun three times from you. It's terrible to begin with, but *three frigging times* is too much. Please stop.

    And Paradox never abandoned a game for half a year like CA, just that makes for a better DLC model.
  • Yekdo21Yekdo21 Registered Users Posts: 47
    Zwirbaum said:

    My take on it, and adressing couple things mentioned in this thread:

    A) 'Paradox releases sea of DLC very fast etc.'
    * - I'm in not the best shape today, so some miscalculations could happen
    Ok, so let's take a look at the time between 'expansions/dlc' and the time between each and another:

    EU IV:
    Conquest of Paradise 5 months
    Wealth of Nations almost 5 months
    Res Publica (mini-DLC - experiment), almost 2 months
    Art of War 3.5 months
    El Dorado 4 months
    Common Sense 4 months
    Cossacks 5 months
    Mare Nostrum 4 months
    Rights of Man 7 months
    Mandate of Heaven 6 months
    Third Rome 2 (small 'immersion pack' DLC) 2 months
    Cradle of Civilization 5 months
    Rule Britannia ('immersion pack') 4 months
    Dharma 6 months

    Average per DLC: 4.4642... Months

    As you can see, almost all the DLC have 4 or 4+ months between the release of previous DLC and the next, with exception of: Res Publica and Third Rome and Art of War (which had absolutely tremendous map update in the same patch update).

    CK2:
    Sword of Islam: 4 months
    Legacy of Rome: 4 months
    Sunset Invasion (mini-alternate history DLC, sort of experiment): 1 month
    Republic: 2 months
    Old Gods: 4 months
    Sons of Abraham: 6 months
    Rajas of India: 5 months
    Charlemagne: 7 months
    Way of Life: 2 months
    Horse Lords: 7 months
    Conclave: 5.5 months
    Reaper's Due: 6 months
    Monks and Mystic: 6 months
    Jade Dragon: 8 months
    Holy Fury: Release date no yet announced: so far 10 months since the last DLC release

    Average per DLC: 4.8214... (Not counting Holy Fury into this)

    One DLC with 1 month 'time between releases' and two with 2 months. Beside that - rest with 4 months or more.

    HoI IV:

    TfV: 6 months
    DoD: 6 months
    Waking the Tiger: 9 months
    Man the Guns: Release date not yet announced: so far 6 months

    Average per DLC: 7 (excluding Man the Guns)

    Stellaris:

    Leviathans: 5 months
    Utopia: 6 months
    Synthetic Dawn: 5 months
    Apocalypse: 5 months
    Distant Stars: 3 months

    Average per DLC: 4.8 months

    So, as we can see, majority of it averages above 4 months (4.4, 4.8, 4.82 and 7). So claiming that Paradox can share information weekly because of the short development cycle while CA can't because of their long 4+ months development cycle is just plain wrong.

    Now however - let's go the second point here:

    B) About the whole idea of having more regular Dev Diary system, like Paradox.

    I will first state that: I do love the Paradox system of sharing the information, transparency and communication between the devs and the community. Weekly Dev Diaries are excellent way to inform in-detail about the upcoming features, mechanics or the general vision of the changes. That said though:

    I don't think that would be really possible with the CA, and the Total War series, unless making radical changes to the development structure, method.

    Let's take a look at the one of their best DLC for the Warhammer 2 (well, not many too chose from :tongue: ).
    Tomb Kings.

    Now let's dissect what was featured in the DLC:

    Tomb Kings.

    Let's see what that included:

    1 Generic Lord, 4 Legendary Lords, 3 Heroes (5 if you want to split different Lores)

    5 Infantry Units, Missile Infantry Unit, 3 Cavalry/Chariot Units, 2 Missile Cavalry/Chariot Units, 11 Monsters, Beasts, Constructs units. 2 Artillery Units. 6 Regiments of Renown, 4 Legions of Legends units.

    Unique features: No upkeep, unit caps, Crafting, Dynasty Tech Tree, Books of Nagash, Tomb King Rites.

    So as you can see, there is not much information to spread over the weeks, especially when you're not ready to announce the DLC*

    * CA uses in their trailers, in-game footage, which basically means that unit models and animations must be ready. And it is kinda hard to talk for example about the unit roster, without showing units or saying to what faction they belong. Which leaves you with the features said for the faction:

    That gives you ability to talk about ~5 features, with spreading them each over the week, you get pretty paltry information about what is in the next expansion, and if not spreading, once again you run out of it in about 1-2 weeks.

    So, unless CA would decide to make announcment trailers for the DLC containing other kind of animation (not in-game ones) - I just don't see it that feasible, at least for the Warhammer game.

    If DLC for TW games, would include adding and reworking more of the game features (like for example rework of building system in patch 1, reworking trade in patch 2, reworking lord system in patch 3 etc. - you could get more information to share between the DLC) then it could be possible and would made sense.

    One of the most productive comment, I appreciate it that you put them all in numbers. It all makes sense.

    Maybe not Weekly but still somehow I am sure CA can do better when it comes to communicating with the customers.

    And to be honest I really have not much idea how SEGA restricts CA when it comes to announcements etc. But still there is an obvious unhappiness among us. And CA needs to address this.

    It does not mean I hate them or not appreciate the work they have done. As they mentioned earlier they took a leap of faith by joining the warhammer world. It is not easy. I at least, appreciate their work a lot. I love the game. I want to contribute to improve their communication..
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038

    Goatforce said:

    Say what you want about Paradox's DLC policy, but with Stellaris at least the free patches have been second to none, the free updates alone have made it a completely different game to what came at launch, in my opinion anyway

    I admit, Stellaris is now a different sort of garbage than it was at launch.
    Both journalists and customers on metacritic disagree with you. It's the best space strategy game on the market and I strongly suggest people to try it (also Endless Space 2, because Amplitude is great).
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759
    Xenos7 said:

    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    SiWI said:

    I remember people complaining about the "what the devs are doing updates" because neither the Wh3 or DLC team had much to report.

    I remember certain forum users constantly complaining about complaining instead of providing actual feedback.
    And I remember certain forum users complaining about others complaining about others complaining instead of providing actual feedback.

    The base point is a good one. Updates without new noteworthy information are pointless. Giving us trivia doesn't fix the problem that is slow content.
    That's why people are asking to change their communication policy to be a more community-friendly one.

    Paradox is a prime example of how community managers or even devs themselves can share information on upcoming updates and participate in discussions without being chained by NDA to the point of announcing the pack a few weeks before it's launch: check this out, for example https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/age-of-wonders-planetfall.1009/
    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Sure, we can ask for more information, but it simply can't be like Paradox while still being good. Context is -like my little brother- king.
    Please, I have read this exact same pun three times from you. It's terrible to begin with, but *three frigging times* is too much. Please stop.

    And Paradox never abandoned a game for half a year like CA, just that makes for a better DLC model.
    Nah.

    Lots of small DLC that break the game is a good model? Since when? Don't get me wrong I'm not defending CA's model, or the slow speed of DLC, but the solution isn't weekly updates all saying nothing. It's not to copy a completely different model.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • AwesomeLion#3654AwesomeLion#3654 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,283
    Going to quote a post I did on a different thread since it's more or less the same:

    I don't mind the wait - I'm bothered by the the lack of communication. They know we are checking inn daily for news. Why not just say "hey guys, no Warhammer news this month, check back later" or "we hope to have some Warhammer news later this month so check later this month. If it doesn't pan out we will let you know".

    Or just say:

    "We aim to release Southern Realms/Araby sometime in October/November. Stay tuned.

    We also aim to release the Skaven/Lizardmen lordpack 1st quarter of 2019. If all goes well, we intend to release a another campaign pack mid 2019, assuming everything goes according to plan"

    Honestly - the best communication I felt CA ever did was when Norsca got delayed and they gave us a timeline. "Tomb Kings in January, Norsca in May". BAM! Knew everything I needed to know. More of that please.

    Total War: Warhammer <3
  • Yekdo21Yekdo21 Registered Users Posts: 47

    Xenos7 said:

    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    SiWI said:

    I remember people complaining about the "what the devs are doing updates" because neither the Wh3 or DLC team had much to report.

    I remember certain forum users constantly complaining about complaining instead of providing actual feedback.
    And I remember certain forum users complaining about others complaining about others complaining instead of providing actual feedback.

    The base point is a good one. Updates without new noteworthy information are pointless. Giving us trivia doesn't fix the problem that is slow content.
    That's why people are asking to change their communication policy to be a more community-friendly one.

    Paradox is a prime example of how community managers or even devs themselves can share information on upcoming updates and participate in discussions without being chained by NDA to the point of announcing the pack a few weeks before it's launch: check this out, for example https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/age-of-wonders-planetfall.1009/
    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Sure, we can ask for more information, but it simply can't be like Paradox while still being good. Context is -like my little brother- king.
    Please, I have read this exact same pun three times from you. It's terrible to begin with, but *three frigging times* is too much. Please stop.

    And Paradox never abandoned a game for half a year like CA, just that makes for a better DLC model.
    Nah.

    Lots of small DLC that break the game is a good model? Since when? Don't get me wrong I'm not defending CA's model, or the slow speed of DLC, but the solution isn't weekly updates all saying nothing. It's not to copy a completely different model.
    I think my English could be more clear to point out the communication issue instead of DLC policy of Paradox. Take it easy...my first post😂
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038

    Xenos7 said:

    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    SiWI said:

    I remember people complaining about the "what the devs are doing updates" because neither the Wh3 or DLC team had much to report.

    I remember certain forum users constantly complaining about complaining instead of providing actual feedback.
    And I remember certain forum users complaining about others complaining about others complaining instead of providing actual feedback.

    The base point is a good one. Updates without new noteworthy information are pointless. Giving us trivia doesn't fix the problem that is slow content.
    That's why people are asking to change their communication policy to be a more community-friendly one.

    Paradox is a prime example of how community managers or even devs themselves can share information on upcoming updates and participate in discussions without being chained by NDA to the point of announcing the pack a few weeks before it's launch: check this out, for example https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/age-of-wonders-planetfall.1009/
    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Sure, we can ask for more information, but it simply can't be like Paradox while still being good. Context is -like my little brother- king.
    Please, I have read this exact same pun three times from you. It's terrible to begin with, but *three frigging times* is too much. Please stop.

    And Paradox never abandoned a game for half a year like CA, just that makes for a better DLC model.
    Nah.

    Lots of small DLC that break the game is a good model? Since when? Don't get me wrong I'm not defending CA's model, or the slow speed of DLC, but the solution isn't weekly updates all saying nothing. It's not to copy a completely different model.
    No PDX DLC ever broke the game. They change the balance, sometimes the change sticks, sometimes gets reverted. That's what an evolving game looks like. WH2 looks like a fossilized game.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038


    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Just curious - what makes Paradox a "mediocre" game development company?
    a lot of dlc
    Since when "a lot of DLC" is bad? Last time I looked 90% of forum users were upset because not enough DLC.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759
    Yekdo21 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Enforest said:

    Enforest said:

    SiWI said:

    I remember people complaining about the "what the devs are doing updates" because neither the Wh3 or DLC team had much to report.

    I remember certain forum users constantly complaining about complaining instead of providing actual feedback.
    And I remember certain forum users complaining about others complaining about others complaining instead of providing actual feedback.

    The base point is a good one. Updates without new noteworthy information are pointless. Giving us trivia doesn't fix the problem that is slow content.
    That's why people are asking to change their communication policy to be a more community-friendly one.

    Paradox is a prime example of how community managers or even devs themselves can share information on upcoming updates and participate in discussions without being chained by NDA to the point of announcing the pack a few weeks before it's launch: check this out, for example https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/age-of-wonders-planetfall.1009/
    Paradox are a publisher and a producer. They also fill their own games with small DLC. We have 4 months between DLC, in this context their model doesn't work. Besides if CA are going to ape anyone it should be a good company, not a mediocre one.

    Sure, we can ask for more information, but it simply can't be like Paradox while still being good. Context is -like my little brother- king.
    Please, I have read this exact same pun three times from you. It's terrible to begin with, but *three frigging times* is too much. Please stop.

    And Paradox never abandoned a game for half a year like CA, just that makes for a better DLC model.
    Nah.

    Lots of small DLC that break the game is a good model? Since when? Don't get me wrong I'm not defending CA's model, or the slow speed of DLC, but the solution isn't weekly updates all saying nothing. It's not to copy a completely different model.
    I think my English could be more clear to point out the communication issue instead of DLC policy of Paradox. Take it easy...my first post😂
    Haha, you should have said! Your English is good enough I didn't notice.

    Lets ignore the whole paradox thing. The general idea that CA could and should be better with communication is right. @AwesomeLion does an awesome job summing up how they should communicate. Just tell us when things are coming then they can hype them up a month before and we all know the score. Hehehe, rhyme.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • vintagepurplevintagepurple Registered Users Posts: 817
    edited September 2018
    Madae said:

    Whatever CA does, never ever adopt the paradox DLC model for god's sake.

    I always find these comments hilarious. The reason there is so much DLC for Paradox games is because they typically try to expand the life of their game well past its release date by releasing new content to keep it interesting, whereas most games these days are released, get a DLC pass a few times, and then get dropped for the next big thing. When is the last time you saw a DLC for Shogun 2? Oh, right.....

    FYI, Shogun 2 and Crusader Kings 2 were released about a year apart, and CK2 is still one of their most played games, which I'm sure has nothing to do with the constant updates and content (snarky smiley face)...

    And if it just so happens to be about that oh so lame excuse "they nickle and dime you!", then I have news for you, buddy; they work for a living, and if you want them to keep making content, they need to be paid for it. It's a business, not a charity. Forego that next cheeseburger and eat some ramen, there's your money.

    Additionally, Paradox has sales for their games with ALL of their DLC for a well below reasonable price often enough to make these comments stink of entitlement.
    I've been playing since CK1 sir smuglord. I don't WANT them zombifying old games far past their lifespan and churning out hundreds of bucks worth of endless DLCs with random, seemingly-unrelated features locked behind paywalls. French Revolution-style three estates that also affect every other nation on the planet locked behind, uhhhh, cossacks? Right. CK2 and EU4 are both bloated messes and if you don't keep current with dev diaries and leave the game for a while it's a pain to figure what DLCs do or which you should buy. Knock that crap off and just release new games.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038

    Madae said:

    Whatever CA does, never ever adopt the paradox DLC model for god's sake.

    I always find these comments hilarious. The reason there is so much DLC for Paradox games is because they typically try to expand the life of their game well past its release date by releasing new content to keep it interesting, whereas most games these days are released, get a DLC pass a few times, and then get dropped for the next big thing. When is the last time you saw a DLC for Shogun 2? Oh, right.....

    FYI, Shogun 2 and Crusader Kings 2 were released about a year apart, and CK2 is still one of their most played games, which I'm sure has nothing to do with the constant updates and content (snarky smiley face)...

    And if it just so happens to be about that oh so lame excuse "they nickle and dime you!", then I have news for you, buddy; they work for a living, and if you want them to keep making content, they need to be paid for it. It's a business, not a charity. Forego that next cheeseburger and eat some ramen, there's your money.

    Additionally, Paradox has sales for their games with ALL of their DLC for a well below reasonable price often enough to make these comments stink of entitlement.
    I've been playing since CK1 sir smuglord. I don't WANT them zombifying old games far past their lifespan and churning out 200 bucks worth of endless DLCs with random, seemingly-unrelated features locked behind DLCs. CK2 and EU4 are both bloated messes and if you don't keep current with dev diaries and leave the game for a while it's a pain to figure what DLCs do or which you should buy. Knock that crap off and just release new games.
    Their policy is very simple: they keep doing DLC as long as people keep buying them. If people buy them then it means they like the game being expanded for years in every possible way. There is a demand, the developer meets it. CA should definitely do that.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,759
    Xenos7 said:

    Madae said:

    Whatever CA does, never ever adopt the paradox DLC model for god's sake.

    I always find these comments hilarious. The reason there is so much DLC for Paradox games is because they typically try to expand the life of their game well past its release date by releasing new content to keep it interesting, whereas most games these days are released, get a DLC pass a few times, and then get dropped for the next big thing. When is the last time you saw a DLC for Shogun 2? Oh, right.....

    FYI, Shogun 2 and Crusader Kings 2 were released about a year apart, and CK2 is still one of their most played games, which I'm sure has nothing to do with the constant updates and content (snarky smiley face)...

    And if it just so happens to be about that oh so lame excuse "they nickle and dime you!", then I have news for you, buddy; they work for a living, and if you want them to keep making content, they need to be paid for it. It's a business, not a charity. Forego that next cheeseburger and eat some ramen, there's your money.

    Additionally, Paradox has sales for their games with ALL of their DLC for a well below reasonable price often enough to make these comments stink of entitlement.
    I've been playing since CK1 sir smuglord. I don't WANT them zombifying old games far past their lifespan and churning out 200 bucks worth of endless DLCs with random, seemingly-unrelated features locked behind DLCs. CK2 and EU4 are both bloated messes and if you don't keep current with dev diaries and leave the game for a while it's a pain to figure what DLCs do or which you should buy. Knock that crap off and just release new games.
    Their policy is very simple: they keep doing DLC as long as people keep buying them. If people buy them then it means they like the game being expanded for years in every possible way. There is a demand, the developer meets it. CA should definitely do that.
    I'd rather they focus on making good games.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,377
    Xenos7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    Say what you want about Paradox's DLC policy, but with Stellaris at least the free patches have been second to none, the free updates alone have made it a completely different game to what came at launch, in my opinion anyway

    I admit, Stellaris is now a different sort of garbage than it was at launch.
    Both journalists and customers on metacritic disagree with you. It's the best space strategy game on the market and I strongly suggest people to try it (also Endless Space 2, because Amplitude is great).
    Never gotten into Endless Space. I bought it off the CA/Amplitude sister-studio deal, but then spent all my time playing Total War anyway! Maybe it's because I'm not sure how everything works in it yet...
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    edited September 2018

    Xenos7 said:

    Madae said:

    Whatever CA does, never ever adopt the paradox DLC model for god's sake.

    I always find these comments hilarious. The reason there is so much DLC for Paradox games is because they typically try to expand the life of their game well past its release date by releasing new content to keep it interesting, whereas most games these days are released, get a DLC pass a few times, and then get dropped for the next big thing. When is the last time you saw a DLC for Shogun 2? Oh, right.....

    FYI, Shogun 2 and Crusader Kings 2 were released about a year apart, and CK2 is still one of their most played games, which I'm sure has nothing to do with the constant updates and content (snarky smiley face)...

    And if it just so happens to be about that oh so lame excuse "they nickle and dime you!", then I have news for you, buddy; they work for a living, and if you want them to keep making content, they need to be paid for it. It's a business, not a charity. Forego that next cheeseburger and eat some ramen, there's your money.

    Additionally, Paradox has sales for their games with ALL of their DLC for a well below reasonable price often enough to make these comments stink of entitlement.
    I've been playing since CK1 sir smuglord. I don't WANT them zombifying old games far past their lifespan and churning out 200 bucks worth of endless DLCs with random, seemingly-unrelated features locked behind DLCs. CK2 and EU4 are both bloated messes and if you don't keep current with dev diaries and leave the game for a while it's a pain to figure what DLCs do or which you should buy. Knock that crap off and just release new games.
    Their policy is very simple: they keep doing DLC as long as people keep buying them. If people buy them then it means they like the game being expanded for years in every possible way. There is a demand, the developer meets it. CA should definitely do that.
    I'd rather they focus on making good games.
    PDX games are good games, as confirmed by sales, critics and customers ratings. Vanilla Gorilla opinion is not a comparable metric.
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