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Steam: nonsense review-bombing strikes WH1 & WH2 ~ honest reaction

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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 14,246Registered Users
    One of those extremist sites which apparently did something on this. I think they aren't even worthy of us mentioning them by name myself.

    The backlash went outside the crowd because the people who were upset at the false claims female spawn rate was increased jumped on it as an excuse for their outrage. In a demonstration of how fake their outrage is the lie has been made that Ella said this to everyone, misleading many people.

    This is purely fake outrage. It's not CA's or any individual CA employees fault.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    If I were CA I'd lock the Steam forums and just wait for the manufactured anger to burn itself out. Just like the Red Shell issue I find it slightly irritating that staff are probably dealing with this rather than cracking on with WH2 DLC.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,322Registered Users

    karge068 said:

    To be fair, a lot of people were upset that they were told to "mod it out or dont play the game if they didnt like it" by Ella.

    This point was made in videos by LegendOfTotalWar and Darren from Republic of Play.

    Telling people to mod or not play the game is not great marketing - if they were offering a refund with this comment I think most people would be fine with it.

    The correct response would have been the explanation they subsequently put on twitter.

    Just to be clear: I dont care about female generals as they stand in the game and I didnt post a negative review and havent commented about this anywhere else.

    It sounds like some horrific things were said which is never OK.

    I just think the point of annoyance seems to be overlooked by this thread and by CA, who havent addressed Ella's comment as far as I can see

    Anyway, check out either of the above videos for a more coherent stab at this.

    That wasn't the response though. That was the response to a group of trolls.

    Sure, if you take the comment completely out of context it sounds bad, but even then this is a vast overreaction. In context there's simply no basis for the reaction.
    That was a response to OP, that is community of Total War: Rome 2. And then CA_Ella double down and made things even worse.

    You may call them trolls, grumkins or redcaps. Those are passionate people and their opinions mean as much as yours and maybe, just maybe even as much as mine. Read thread in question before you condemn people.
    Uhh no, the OP wasn't the entirety of the Rome 2 community, that's not how making threads works.

    They are by definition trolls. They're welcome to their opinion, but they got treated in the manner their actions demanded. Customer service folk shouldn't take abuse and respond nicely. What Ella said was unremarkable, and even if you take what she said out of context as some folk insist on doing this response is a vast overeaction. It's just a case of people desperately seeking a reason to be upset choosing a reason to be upset. Nothing more.

    Your opinion means more than mine, hahahahaha, that was a good one, that made me laugh. Keep personal remarks like that out of your comments :).
    When community members ask general questions then answers they receive from company representatives apply to all concerned. In this case those who have issue with female generals.

    They are not trolls. If customer service folk can't respond nicely then they should not respond at all. It wasn't unremarkable, and upgrade to that comment was remarkably vile.

    It was a joke. I'm glad it made you laugh.
    All concerned were in this case the trolls in that thread. Even if you take what she said out of context as some folk insist on doing this response is a vast overeaction. It's just a case of people desperately seeking a reason to be upset choosing a reason to be upset. Nothing more.

    Now because a moderator reprimanded a bunch of abusive trolls there's been talk of violence against her for it. It's despicable behaviour.
    That is not true at all. This argumentation does not withstand critique after one glance at thread. Again, I encourage you, again, to read the original thread. Nothing is being taken out of context. It was a politically charged jab that later evolved into full political statement.

    So, are people now getting offended on behalf of CA's PR and marketing department? I would say let them handle it, they're the ones getting paid for it after all.

    Also, I'm flabbergasted at the idea of some people here that company staff members apparently have to take abuse without question. Try going into a department store or restaurant, heap abuse on the staff and see how quickly you'll get escorted out and banned from the premises. See, it's in the interest of especially the community manager to keep things smooth and that also means getting rid of unabashedly disruptive elements. You think Ella's pretty reasonable response was "bad PR"? Do you know what would be actually bad PR? Letting the Daily Stormer crowd run rampant on company managed forums because, get this, the Daily Stormer crowd is mighty unpopular with quite a bit of the playerbase (and the population at large) and CA allowing these guys to spout their ideology unopposed would drive customers away quickly. Would you like to frequent a restaurant where some guy is allowed to daily shout his vile worldview at the top of his lungs and abuse the people around him? I don't think so.

    I'm jabberslythed at the idea of some people here thinking that talking back is an equivalent of escorting someone away. That is what warnings/bans/locked threads are for.

    Also, again, I must repeat: no abuse was aimed at CA_Ella in the original thread. Nothing about CA_Ella's response is reasonable.

    Daily Stormer was not the first one who came up with an article on the subject. It was One Angry Gamer, then both Arch Warhammer and Daily Stormer followed afterwards. I understand, it is easier to try to deflect the issue by claiming 'it is all about them Stormer troll baddies' but it is not the case in any way, shape or form.

    I would like not to frequent such restaurant. But I would not like even more to see staffers talking back to customers.
    Nyxilis said:

    Soon as someone starts saying, "I'm fine with weapon, territory, and unit inaccuracies" but then say "But that female one no can do" the ground to stand on just entirely disintegrates. You either want accuracy or you don't. You don't get to have your cake and eat it to. It just shows the blatant twisted logic it takes to be on that side.

    There are degrees of accuracy.


    No, it didn't exist. The Byzantines did not have handheld flamethrowers, are you being serious?

    It did. Greek fire is not a fiction.

    Political volunteers behaviour reflect on the political party, people who volunteer in museums represent that museum, voluntary police officers represent the police, you're argument falls flat.

    You have ignored my previous comment. I have said that CA representative is immeasurably more under scrutiny than forum moderators. Professionals ought to live to higher standards than volunteers. Also, it needs to be stressed out that in case of volunteers, the responsibility lies on recruiter. You are arguing in bad faith, again.

    Who did? Looking at the rules, who deserved to get banned? It's obvious if people were banned then whatever they said would have been removed, that's basic. Oh it's so political, or she's mildly surprised by the uproar.

    Someone on the first or second page remains banned. I imagine it was not their first offence. Erick and his partner in discussion also broke the rules but have not received a ban. It is not obvious at all. It is not basic at all. Sometimes comments are removed, sometimes they are not. It is political no matter the surprise.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    edited September 2018
    It did. Greek fire is not a fiction.

    When did I say Greek Fire didn't exist? now who's arguing on bad faith? I said handheld battlefield flamethrowers didn't exist that used Greek Fire, it was usually fired through a large pump based on ships.

    You have ignored my previous comment. I have said that CA representative is immeasurably more under scrutiny than forum moderators. Professionals ought to live to higher standards than volunteers. Also, it needs to be stressed out that in case of volunteers, the responsibility lies on recruiter. You are arguing in bad faith, again.

    Nope, quite clearly I took your argument "they are immeasurably different" and gave clear examples of staff who work for free in other contexts and pointed out that they are under scrutiny in the same way paid staff are. In these other contexts those people are scrutinised because they represent a company. You haven't proven objectively your point is true, it's merely a subjective view of the world that isn't backed up with evidence. the many times I've seen mods on here 'talk back' to paying members of the community I've not heard a peep out of you, yet when Ella says something trivial the world ends.

    Someone on the first or second page remains banned. I imagine it was not their first offence. Erick and his partner in discussion also broke the rules but have not received a ban. It is not obvious at all. It is not basic at all. Sometimes comments are removed, sometimes they are not. It is political no matter the surprise.

    What comment got them banned? Where did eric break the rules? It's political in your own head.

    Daily Stormer was not the first one who came up with an article on the subject. It was One Angry Gamer, then both Arch Warhammer and Daily Stormer followed afterwards. I understand, it is easier to try to deflect the issue by claiming 'it is all about them Stormer troll baddies' but it is not the case in any way, shape or form.

    Could it not be the case that Ella had dealt with many of these threads and been taking grief for a while? Impossible? The video by Arch Warhammer was utter garbage.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,055Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Everyone needs to lighten up a little.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    Everyone needs to lighten up a little.

    I'm hoping this 'anger/offence' fizzles out, especially when the new DLC is released.
  • KronusXKronusX Posts: 1,352Registered Users

    So, are people now getting offended on behalf of CA's PR and marketing department? I would say let them handle it, they're the ones getting paid for it after all.

    Also, I'm flabbergasted at the idea of some people here that company staff members apparently have to take abuse without question. Try going into a department store or restaurant, heap abuse on the staff and see how quickly you'll get escorted out and banned from the premises. See, it's in the interest of especially the community manager to keep things smooth and that also means getting rid of unabashedly disruptive elements. You think Ella's pretty reasonable response was "bad PR"? Do you know what would be actually bad PR? Letting the Daily Stormer crowd run rampant on company managed forums because, get this, the Daily Stormer crowd is mighty unpopular with quite a bit of the playerbase (and the population at large) and CA allowing these guys to spout their ideology unopposed would drive customers away quickly. Would you like to frequent a restaurant where some guy is allowed to daily shout his vile worldview at the top of his lungs and abuse the people around him? I don't think so.

    That is some projecting right there. No one said anything about taking abuse without question, but rather the reply back. Your example makes no sense because the escorting portion would be the equivalent of the thread getting locked. The good analogy with your example would be the customer gets escorted and on the top of that the employee throws some nasty remarks back at them. I can guarantee you that you would either get harsh talk from the manager or outright fired.

    As someone with customer experience I can say for certain that most people in this thread have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to those situations. The nr 1 emphasized all the time is ''you cannot talk back to the customer''. if it is a phone job you are allowed to ask them to be respectful and if they refuse you can advise them that the conversation will end due to their impoliteness, but you CANNOT throw insults/make derogatory remark/throw personal statements back at them.

    If you ever heard someone from customer service tell you ''if you are not happy with our services, you can go with a different bank/provider/etc'', I can guarantee you that this person would be fired not too long after.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,731Registered Users
    Weapons that didn't exist is no different than % difference in gender balance.

    Your degrees are are just there to justify your viewpoint.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    If you ever heard someone from customer service tell you ''if you are not happy with our services, you can go with a different bank/provider/etc'', I can guarantee you that this person would be fired not too long after.

    If people are speaking to each other or employees in a way that would get them banned from the company website about something that is painfully unimportant I can guarantee they wouldn't.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,322Registered Users
    edited September 2018
    When did I say Greek Fire didn't exist? now who's arguing on bad faith? I said handheld battlefield flamethrowers didn't exist that used Greek Fire, it was usually fired through a large pump based on ships.

    You are. Magic word: 'usually'.

    Nope, quite clearly I took your argument "they are immeasurably different" and gave clear examples of staff who work for free in other contexts and pointed out that they are under scrutiny in the same way paid staff are. In these other contexts those people are scrutinised because they represent a company. You haven't proven objectively your point is true, it's merely a subjective view of the world that isn't backed up with evidence. the many times I've seen mods on here 'talk back' to paying members of the community I've not heard a peep out of you, yet when Ella says something trivial the world ends.

    But they are not under the same scrutiny. Mistakes made by volunteers are in no way, shape or form treated as ones made by trained professionals. Also, they are not representatives unless stated otherwise.The many times I've seen mods on here talk they have said their views do not represent that of CA. CA_Ella is CA representative who used politically charged jab. Apologies are due.

    What comment got them banned? Where did eric break the rules? It's political in your own head.
    The one that is still banned is #16.

    Erick: It's pretty simple. If given a choice women choose to put their children in a dumpster. #57 Could it not be the case that Ella had dealt with many of these threads and been taking grief for a while? Impossible? The video by Arch Warhammer was utter garbage.

    It could but it does not CA_Ella right to talk-back. Not to mention it is unreleated considering news on the subject came after CA_Ella response.
    Nyxilis said:

    Weapons that didn't exist is no different than % difference in gender balance.

    Your degrees are are just there to justify your viewpoint.

    It is different. You can far easier come up with weapon than to change ones' physical and psychological core.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    You are. Magic word: 'usually'

    Yes and let me say, there's no evidence of the Byzantines ever using a magical 'stick' with an animals head on it that could throw Greek Fire. Even in the modern era flamethrowers require more than a tube.

    But they are not under the same scrutiny. Mistakes made by volunteers are in no way, shape or form treated as ones made by trained professionals. Also, they are not representatives unless stated otherwise.The many times I've seen mods on here talk they have said their views do not represent that of CA. CA_Ella is CA representative who used politically charged jab. Apologies are due.

    Not really, as even if in the case of volunteers back-chatting changes to a 'mistake', if this poor behaviour did happen it would reflect on the company if they allowed this so called bad behaviour to continue it would obviously reflect on them, how is this not obvious? However, I know that CA disagree with you and they will back their employee, so as much as you want it - not going to happen.

    The one that is still banned is #16.

    He's not banned for the actual comment he made in #16 as it says banned on all his other comments. also he's not said anything worse than anyone else, so it follows that his worst comments were removed. just like other who we can't see because they may have only chipped in with a comment that's worth a ban.

    It could but it does not CA_Ella right to talk-back. Not to mention it is unreleated considering news on the subject came after CA_Ella response.

    I'm not sure where you come from but Ella does have a right to say what she feels is right. In past cases were employees did step out of line the company made an immediate statement. This will not happen.

    It is different. You can far easier come up with weapon than to change ones' physical and psychological core.

    What's this got to do with anything? This doesn't disprove women had important roles in this period including leading armies and navies. Physically weak men have been leaders.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,322Registered Users
    edited September 2018
    Yes and let me say, there's no evidence of the Byzantines ever using a magical 'stick' with an animals head on it that could throw Greek Fire. Even in the modern era flamethrowers require more than a tube.

    Game simplification.

    Not really, as even if in the case of volunteers back-chatting changes to a 'mistake', if this poor behaviour did happen it would reflect on the company if they allowed this so called bad behaviour to continue it would obviously reflect on them, how is this not obvious? However, I know that CA disagree with you and they will back their employee, so as much as you want it - not going to happen.

    Really. It would reflect on a hiring person and it would be up to them to apologise. You are generalising in baid faith to prove a crooked point. And I know they are vile for doing it.

    He's not banned for the actual comment he made in #16 as it says banned on all his other comments. also he's not said anything worse than anyone else, so it follows that his worst comments were removed. just like other who we can't see because they may have only chipped in with a comment that's worth a ban.

    He is permanently banned for multiple transgressions. It follows that this or other offence finally got him out of the forum. You assume the only bans there are, are permanent. Which is not true. If Erick and company comments were not removed, there is no reason to think other were, especially considering his post concerns women. Remember, this thread was closed on 13th of August. Plenty of time for bans to wear off.

    I'm not sure where you come from but Ella does have a right to say what she feels is right. In past cases were employees did step out of line the company made an immediate statement. This will not happen.

    I come from the Earth. She does not. It is basic etiquette. You are right, it might not happen. More reasons to loathe CA.

    What's this got to do with anything? This doesn't disprove women had important roles in this period including leading armies and navies. Physically weak men have been leaders.

    Everything. Few women in span of centuries. Prove they were actually leading them instead of being at the head of an army or navy. But I do agree with the notion of important role. Leaders usually boost morale by their very presence. Most female leaders history knows, come from the fact their male rulers died. Sure they were, taught from early days in strategy and tactics. Also I have put both physical and psychological core.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • KronusXKronusX Posts: 1,352Registered Users

    If you ever heard someone from customer service tell you ''if you are not happy with our services, you can go with a different bank/provider/etc'', I can guarantee you that this person would be fired not too long after.

    If people are speaking to each other or employees in a way that would get them banned from the company website about something that is painfully unimportant I can guarantee they wouldn't.

    But we are not employees, neither is reddit. The people on reddit do NOT work for CA, CA Ella does though. CA Ella is a community manager giving information back to the players, aka the costumers. She is the employee, the reddit joes posting are not. Painfully unimportant? Perhaps to you, but not to the other customers.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    edited October 2018
    Game simplification

    So with no sense of irony you're saying that females appearing in factions that had female leaders is more acceptable than a medieval soldier using a flamethrower? Stunning.

    Really. It would reflect on a hiring person and it would be up to them to apologise. You are generalising in baid faith to prove a crooked point. And I know they are vile for doing it.

    No, I'm using real world examples and applying them to your example, you're the one applying a simple idea to every context. Vile? How very dramatic, it's funny you didn't describe the threats Ella got as vile.. weird.

    I come from the Earth. She does not. It is basic etiquette. You are right, it might not happen. More reasons to loathe CA.

    Yes and it's someone's right to say something within the scope of her job whether you agree with it or not. Please don't go on about basic etiquette considering some of the trolls who feel oh so threatened about female leaders and females telling them things they don't want to hear (bless them). Loathe? More drama, I remember in novels were evil people were loathed who had done great wrongs, now apparently great wrongs involve.. Mod or don't play.. wow.

    Everything. Few women in span of centuries. Prove they were actually leading them instead of being at the head of an army or navy. But I do agree with the notion of important role. Leaders usually boost morale by their very presence. Most female leaders history knows, come from the fact their male rulers died. Sure they were, taught from early days in strategy and tactics. Also I have put both physical and psychological core.

    It's interesting I have to prove that women specifically leading rather than the head of the navy or army. Most male leaders come from male leaders dying, that's how it usually works, one ruler dies and a family member takes over.



    A few examples.

    Artemisia - She ruled the area around Halicarnassis and was an ally of Xerxes. In battle she commanded a squadron of 5 ships. She was most well known for very wisely telling Xerxes that attacking the Greek navy at Salamis was a stupid plan. In the battle she was by far the most effective Persian commander, prompting Xerxes to note 'my men have become women, and my women have become men' Source: Herodotus.

    Boudicca - I'm sure you've heard of her but if you haven't she was the leader of the Iceni tribe in Britannia and led troops to raze many Roman cities including London and Colchester. Source: Cassius Dio, Tacitus.

    Cleopatra VII - The last pharoah of Egypt. She commanded the Egyptian navy as well as being a great politician (though not as great as Octavian obviously). Egypt generally had a lot of prominant women. Do note that there were 6 pharoahs named Cleopatra before her. Source: Appian of Alexandria, Julius Caesar.

    Olympias of Macedonia - The mother of Alexander the Great, who ruled Macedon after his death before dying in the wars of succession after winning a couple of battles. Source: Plutarch

    Arsinoe II - She was the Queen of Thrace and the Pharoah of Egypt in the early 3rd century BC. She ruled Thrace independently after she killed her Thracian husband, but fled to Egypt when she heard that said husband's friends had raised an army. Once in Egypt she married her brother Ptolomy II and became Pharoah. She was also a chariot racing champion. Source: Posidippus of Pella, Pausanias.

    Julia Domna - The wife of Septimus Severus, her power outlived her husband. The emperor Caracalla requested her guidance on campaigns and she was known as 'Mother of the Camp' - a sign that the men looked up to her. She committed suicide after the army she was with was defeated by the Parthians. Source: Cassius Dio.

    Julia Mamaea - Empress Regent of Rome and Julia Soaemias' sister. When Alexander Severus was installed after Julia Soaemias' son messed everything up, he was a minor. The senate and Praetorian Guard turned to his mother, Julia Mamaea, to rule in his place. She continued to rule even when Alexander grew up, because he totally relied on her for advice. She was praised for bringing stability to an empire on the brink of disintegration. When she died along with her son, that stability ended and the Third Century Crisis began. Source: Cassius Dio.

    Zenobia

    Livia Drusilla - The wife of Augustus and mother of Tiberius. When Tiberius became emperor he found himself being debated and sometimes overruled by this woman. In fact, he became so frustrated at her desire to control politics that Tibierius left her to it and moved off to Capri for a few years! Source: Tacitus, Suetonius.

    Agrippina the Younger - The great-granddaughter of Livia. She was to Nero as Livia was to Tiberius. Nero got so annoyed at people seeking her advice instead of his that he tried to drown her, and then had her beaten with clubs in an alley when that didn't work. Source: Tacitus, Suetonius, Cassius Dio.

    We also have Tacitus' Germania, an ethnographic survey of the Germanic tribes. In chapter 7 he discussed how women would sometimes accompany their husbands on campaign, usually just as camp followers, but they did sometimes fight. He also noted that leadership was done on merit rather than through birth, and that gender was nowhere near as important to them as it was to Romans. He also noted that Nordic tribes were typically ruled by women.

    Post edited by davedave1124 on
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,731Registered Users
    Come up with weapon.... yeah, your getting pretty rich here. There is no psychological core, it's pixels on a screen. Unless your just of the end assertion 6hat females can't be soldiers and that just bothers you right down to your core. Pfffft haha.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    But we are not employees, neither is reddit. The people on reddit do NOT work for CA, CA Ella does though. CA Ella is a community manager giving information back to the players, aka the costumers. She is the employee, the reddit joes posting are not. Painfully unimportant? Perhaps to you, but not to the other customers.


    Professional companies will support their staff first especially if their staff did nothing to get excited about. If they'd have been face to face with her very few would've mouthed off like they do behind their computer screen. I'm sorry, but the management in Sega and CA know a little more about their own rules on customer interaction than the average angry man on the internet. Ella will not get into trouble for this, I'm pretty sure she will be backed up.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,322Registered Users
    edited September 2018
    So with now sense of irony you're saying that females appearing in factions that had female leaders is more acceptable than a medieval soldier using a flamethrower? Stunning.

    Yes.


    No, I'm using real world examples and applying them to your example, you're the one applying a simple idea to every context. Vile? How very dramatic, it's funny you didn't describe the threats Ella got as vile.. weird.


    Because it is simple. Official representatives and volunteers fall under vastly different level of scrutiny. Yes, vile. I have described those threats as wrong. That is enough.

    Yes and it's someone's right to say something within the scope of her job whether you agree with it or not. Please don't go on about basic etiquette considering some of the trolls who feel oh so threatened about female leaders and females telling them things they don't want to hear (bless them). Loathe? More drama, I remember in novels were evil people were loathed who had done great wrongs, now apparently great wrongs involve.. Mod or don't play.. wow.

    I agree, it's someone's right to say something within the scope of their job. But it wasn't within it. It was very much outside of it. Basic etiquette 101 breach. Yes, loathe. Now apparently great wrongs involve passive aggressive and politically charged jabs that later evolve into political statements.


    It's interesting I have to prove that women specifically leading rather than the head of the navy or army. Most male leaders come from male leaders dying, that's how it usually works, one ruler dies and a family member takes over.

    Yes, with the exception that males were trained into leading position from youth. Women were not. Given examples are cute but prove nothing. Both male and female figureheads were guided by other men. Every leader has council/advisors, male council/advisors 99% of the time. Not to mention in some places it is pure propaganda. But that is irrelevant considering all things.

    Nyxilis said:

    Come up with weapon.... yeah, your getting pretty rich here. There is no psychological core, it's pixels on a screen. Unless your just of the end assertion 6hat females can't be soldiers and that just bothers you right down to your core. Pfffft haha.

    There is. As for the rest, I will respect sanctity of this thread and leave a suggestive emote :smile:
    Post edited by Maedrethnir on
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  • KronusXKronusX Posts: 1,352Registered Users

    But we are not employees, neither is reddit. The people on reddit do NOT work for CA, CA Ella does though. CA Ella is a community manager giving information back to the players, aka the costumers. She is the employee, the reddit joes posting are not. Painfully unimportant? Perhaps to you, but not to the other customers.


    Professional companies will support their staff first especially if their staff did nothing to get excited about. If they'd have been face to face with her very few would've mouthed off like they do behind their computer screen. I'm sorry, but the management in Sega and CA know a little more about their own rules on customer interaction than the average angry man on the internet. Ella will not get into trouble for this, I'm pretty sure she will be backed up.

    I am sure they do, but it does not always mean they are right. DAI inquisition had obvious example of pandering and it was backed by the company, same for ME:Andromeda.

    As for management in Sega and CA, considering their complete silence on Warhammer news and the announcement of a 3K DLC 6 months in advance, I seriously doubt that they know much about their own rules on anything, let alone customer interaction.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Posts: 2,587Registered Users
    edited October 2018
    dge1 said:

    Everyone needs to lighten up a little.

    Sage advice.

    I don’t think anybody is going to change anybody’s mind at this point. If you just want an excuse to be contentious then have it, but this whole thread seems to be a profitless enterprise.
    ò_ó
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 14,246Registered Users
    KronusX said:

    If you ever heard someone from customer service tell you ''if you are not happy with our services, you can go with a different bank/provider/etc'', I can guarantee you that this person would be fired not too long after.

    If people are speaking to each other or employees in a way that would get them banned from the company website about something that is painfully unimportant I can guarantee they wouldn't.

    But we are not employees, neither is reddit. The people on reddit do NOT work for CA, CA Ella does though. CA Ella is a community manager giving information back to the players, aka the costumers. She is the employee, the reddit joes posting are not. Painfully unimportant? Perhaps to you, but not to the other customers.
    Just because someone is in customer service does not mean they must put up with abuse. The thread this comes from was full of abuse. Ella was absolutely right to tell these trolls to mod it out or not play.

    People are trying to make it sound like she was speaking to the community as a whole but she simply wasn't. Even if she was it doesn't justify the reaction. The fact that she wasn't speaking to them makes the reaction which includes people wishing violence on her is frankly appalling.

    This whole incident is fake. There's simply nothing real about it. The initial incident was fake, and the upset over Ellas comment is fake.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,322Registered Users

    KronusX said:

    If you ever heard someone from customer service tell you ''if you are not happy with our services, you can go with a different bank/provider/etc'', I can guarantee you that this person would be fired not too long after.

    If people are speaking to each other or employees in a way that would get them banned from the company website about something that is painfully unimportant I can guarantee they wouldn't.

    But we are not employees, neither is reddit. The people on reddit do NOT work for CA, CA Ella does though. CA Ella is a community manager giving information back to the players, aka the costumers. She is the employee, the reddit joes posting are not. Painfully unimportant? Perhaps to you, but not to the other customers.
    Just because someone is in customer service does not mean they must put up with abuse. The thread this comes from was full of abuse. Ella was absolutely right to tell these trolls to mod it out or not play.

    People are trying to make it sound like she was speaking to the community as a whole but she simply wasn't. Even if she was it doesn't justify the reaction. The fact that she wasn't speaking to them makes the reaction which includes people wishing violence on her is frankly appalling.

    This whole incident is fake. There's simply nothing real about it. The initial incident was fake, and the upset over Ellas comment is fake.
    Of course not, they can issue a warning/ban or lock a thread. But they have no right to talk back. Sure, I agree, those comments did not observe steam rules and guidelines. But it was an itsy bitsy ilk of abuse. Everybody has a chance to read it: https://steamcommunity.com/app/214950/discussions/0/1698293068433895118/

    She was speaking to the community. CA_Ella copy/paste this comment in more than one post which proves it was not aimed at the participants of the first thread. Fact later further reinforced with political statement clearly addressed to everyone

    Firstly, I'll say it again: Total War games are historically authentic, not historically accurate - if having female units upsets you that much you can either mod them out or just not play. People saying they won't buy the game because there are too many women in it is fine with us - if that's their reason, we'd rather they didn't anyway.


    It is not fake at all.

    CA owes their playerbase a formal apology and CA_Ella a reprimand.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 14,246Registered Users
    edited October 2018
    She wasn't speaking to the community and even if she was that doesn't justify the outrage.

    Of course the outrage is fake. It was based on a lie then jumped to a moderator reprimanding trolls. Even in the very worst case "Mod it out or don't play" is sensible advice, it's not CA's problem if that's grabbed by the outraged people as an excuse for said outrage. The worst case isn't relevant though as we know that didn't happen.

    If anyone it's Ella who deserves the apology for all the horrific abuse she's been subject to simply because she did her job.
    Post edited by Vanilla_Gorilla on
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,093Registered Users

    It did. Greek fire is not a fiction.

    When did I say Greek Fire didn't exist? now who's arguing on bad faith? I said handheld battlefield flamethrowers didn't exist that used Greek Fire, it was usually fired through a large pump based on ships.

    You have ignored my previous comment. I have said that CA representative is immeasurably more under scrutiny than forum moderators. Professionals ought to live to higher standards than volunteers. Also, it needs to be stressed out that in case of volunteers, the responsibility lies on recruiter. You are arguing in bad faith, again.

    Nope, quite clearly I took your argument "they are immeasurably different" and gave clear examples of staff who work for free in other contexts and pointed out that they are under scrutiny in the same way paid staff are. In these other contexts those people are scrutinised because they represent a company. You haven't proven objectively your point is true, it's merely a subjective view of the world that isn't backed up with evidence. the many times I've seen mods on here 'talk back' to paying members of the community I've not heard a peep out of you, yet when Ella says something trivial the world ends.

    Someone on the first or second page remains banned. I imagine it was not their first offence. Erick and his partner in discussion also broke the rules but have not received a ban. It is not obvious at all. It is not basic at all. Sometimes comments are removed, sometimes they are not. It is political no matter the surprise.

    What comment got them banned? Where did eric break the rules? It's political in your own head.

    Daily Stormer was not the first one who came up with an article on the subject. It was One Angry Gamer, then both Arch Warhammer and Daily Stormer followed afterwards. I understand, it is easier to try to deflect the issue by claiming 'it is all about them Stormer troll baddies' but it is not the case in any way, shape or form.

    Could it not be the case that Ella had dealt with many of these threads and been taking grief for a while? Impossible? The video by Arch Warhammer was utter garbage.

    Greek fire flamethrowers existed. Syracusae was one of the few cities of the Empire that was authorized to have the schematics to build them. I live at less than 70 km from it and I saw them in museums.
    Also, the Medieval 2 depiction of BE is unfairly archaic, but accurate.
    Recent archeological and bibliographical discoveries found out that the BE was at the top on research of firearms (grenades and even an archaic kinda of bazooka were found, but the use of the latter is still unknown) and was heavily inspired by chinese blueprints.
    Hand grenades were even common in BE navy, some with explosive or incendiary charges, as shown during reconquest of Sicily. However, all of this tech superiority was lost after the fourth crusade.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    Yes.

    So you're just arguing for the sake of it then as women appearing (rarely) is similar to past historical issues with accuracy, I'll assume that you have a special focus on women, just because.

    Because it is simple. Official representatives and volunteers fall under vastly different level of scrutiny. Yes, vile. I have described those threats as wrong. That is enough.

    Ah now it's 'official' rather than paid? Those people represent a company, paid or not and the way CA reacts to them is a reflection of CA. Simple.

    I agree, it's someone's right to say something within the scope of their job. But it wasn't within it. It was very much outside of it. Basic etiquette 101 breach. Yes, loathe. Now apparently great wrongs involve passive aggressive and politically charged jabs that later evolve into political statements.

    Oh so you know what's in the scope of Ella's job better than she does? Better than her line management? You see her comment as politically charged, I'm sure most people as someone saying 'it's a few females appearing in a game.. calm down'. On the plus side I can conclude that you've never had a real problems if you see what Ella's said as such a huge political issue.

    Yes, with the exception that males were trained into leading position from youth. Women were not. Given examples are cute but prove nothing. Both male and female figureheads were guided by other men. Every leader has council/advisors, male council/advisors 99% of the time. Not to mention in some places it is pure propaganda. But that is irrelevant considering all things.

    Given examples prove that women led backed by evidence. I think I should try that in a real debate, whenever someone backs what they say with facts I'll call it cute, interesting.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    Greek fire flamethrowers existed. Syracusae was one of the few cities of the Empire that was authorized to have the schematics to build them. I live at less than 70 km from it and I saw them in museums.
    Also, the Medieval 2 depiction of BE is unfairly archaic, but accurate.
    Recent archeological and bibliographical discoveries found out that the BE was at the top on research of firearms (grenades and even an archaic kinda of bazooka were found, but the use of the latter is still unknown) and was heavily inspired by chinese blueprints.
    Hand grenades were even common in BE navy, some with explosive or incendiary charges, as shown during reconquest of Sicily. However, all of this tech superiority was lost after the fourth crusade.


    You can read through Wikipedia as much as you like, but there is no way the Byzantines had anything like mobile battlefield flamethrowers.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    I am sure they do, but it does not always mean they are right. DAI inquisition had obvious example of pandering and it was backed by the company, same for ME:Andromeda.


    An obvious example of pandering would be to program out females due to a loud minority.

    As for management in Sega and CA, considering their complete silence on Warhammer news and the announcement of a 3K DLC 6 months in advance, I seriously doubt that they know much about their own rules on anything, let alone customer interaction.


    Yet 3 Kingdoms will sell well and you know it. In reference to being a business CA and Sega know what they're doing.
  • KronusXKronusX Posts: 1,352Registered Users

    I am sure they do, but it does not always mean they are right. DAI inquisition had obvious example of pandering and it was backed by the company, same for ME:Andromeda.


    An obvious example of pandering would be to program out females due to a loud minority.

    As for management in Sega and CA, considering their complete silence on Warhammer news and the announcement of a 3K DLC 6 months in advance, I seriously doubt that they know much about their own rules on anything, let alone customer interaction.


    Yet 3 Kingdoms will sell well and you know it. In reference to being a business CA and Sega know what they're doing.

    Do you see the future?If so, do tell us what is the upcoming DLC, since you seem to know already that 3K will sell well.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,205Registered Users
    Do you see the future?If so, do tell us what is the upcoming DLC, since you seem to know already that 3K will sell well.

    It's called deductive reasoning. The chances of a major TW game flopping is unlikely as the evidence shows major lines sell better than previous, especially when 3K is going to open the Chinese market.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,322Registered Users

    She wasn't speaking to the community and even if she was that doesn't justify the outrage.

    Of course the outrage is fake. It was based on a lie then jumped to a moderator reprimanding trolls. Even in the very worst case "Mod it out or don't play" is sensible advice, it's not CA's problem if that's grabbed by the outraged people as an excuse for said outrage. The worst case isn't relevant though as we know that didn't happen.

    If anyone it's Ella who deserves the apology for all the horrific abuse she's been subject to simply because she did her job.

    CA_Ella was speaking to the community, copy/paste of the response from the original thread reinforces it.

    It was not fake. Moderator sure can reprimand forum user by telling them to keep discussion civil, by issuing warning, ban or locking thread. It was not a sensible advice, neither was 'if having female units upsets you that much', not to mention 'People saying they won't buy the game because there are too many women in it is fine with us - if that's their reason, we'd rather they didn't anyway.'

    Making passive aggressive politically charged jabs is not community manager's job. CA_Ella failed.

    So you're just arguing for the sake of it then as women appearing (rarely) is similar to past historical issues with accuracy, I'll assume that you have a special focus on women, just because.


    10-15% is not rarely. If you avoid fielding female generals they will stack and occupy spots. Not to mention issue of technology is not the same as issue of biology.

    Ah now it's 'official' rather than paid? Those people represent a company, paid or not and the way CA reacts to them is a reflection of CA. Simple.

    One and the same withing context. Official(paid) representatives represent a company. Again, arguing in bad faith. Obviously there is a difference of between action of CA employee and volunteer. Simple.

    Oh so you know what's in the scope of Ella's job better than she does? Better than her line management? You see her comment as politically charged, I'm sure most people as someone saying 'it's a few females appearing in a game.. calm down'. On the plus side I can conclude that you've never had a real problems if you see what Ella's said as such a huge political issue.

    Unfortunately, I do. It is a fact that this comment is politically charged. Stating otherwise is arguing in bad faith, or worse, being unable to understand. Yes, it is vile and I loathe it.

    Given examples prove that women led backed by evidence. I think I should try that in a real debate, whenever someone backs what they say with facts I'll call it cute, interesting.

    Given examples prove women were at the head of armies. Prove they were commanders, strategists and tacticians. It was you who used word 'cute' few responses earlier. I have merely borrowed your word.

    Right, so just so I'm straight you believe that the Byzantine army had a flamethrower that could be used in a similar way to those used in WW1? That's cute.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 18,453Registered Users
    So far the great review-bombing campaign had little to no effect. Review-bombing a five year old game is already sad and ineffectual and the review bombing attempts on other TW titles fizzled since the neckbeards behind it got bored and probably went back to raging over all da womenfolk in Star Wars nowadays.


This discussion has been closed.