Vampire Coast Mechanics are bad news for Dogs of War

Ol_Nessie#9894

After being absolutely floored by the Vampire Coast announcement, I shook off the initial shock and looked into some of the details. It appears that CA took some of the ideas that folks were throwing around for a possible DoW campaign pack and instead applied them to the Vampire Coast. For instance...

Infamy- a reputation mechanic which eventually leads to your endgame objectives sounds very close to what I had proposed for DoW nearly a year ago

Ship building- in a roundabout way this is a mechanic that allows the Vampirates to be a hybrid horde and settled faction, which would have been equally appropriate for a mercenary race

Pieces of 8- an RoR based mechanic that makes the collection of Regiments of Renown more interesting which, given how many RoR possibilities there are and the fact that the RoRs would likely be one of the main selling points of DoW, seems right at home with DoW as well

Why is this bad news? 1 mechanic would not be all that worrying, after all CA has reused mechanics before and are even reusing the offices mechanic again, but the combination of these 3 makes me think that they have no intention of doing DoW down the road. After all, if they did do DoW with similar mechanics to this they'd draw a lot of criticism for just rinsing and repeating.

For clarity, I'm not saying they stole ideas or anything. It's their game after all, they can use whatever ideas they want however they came by them. I'm not even saying they got the ideas from us. All I'm saying is that these particular ideas in this specific combination makes me think that they never plan on doing DoW.

Warlocke

DoW isn't a particularly interesting faction as far as I see it. They don't have a strong thematic identity. Insane Vampire Pirate Zombie Captain is about as easy a product to market as you can get.

AHumpierRogue#5296

Warlocke said:

DoW isn't a particularly interesting faction as far as I see it. They don't have a strong thematic identity. Insane Vampire Pirate Zombie Captain is about as easy a product to market as you can get.

DoW have a very clear faction identity-Italian Condottieri armies.

Also OP I really don't think that means much, the Tomb Kings also had mechanics for RoR, did that worry you then? Also for hybrid horde armies, I really don't think DoW had to be hybrid horde at all, I wouldn't mind a traditional faction at all anyway. The DoW lords for the most part are non mercenaries who have armies composed of Mercs, not mercenary lords anyway.

Draculasaurus

You're being paranoid. A million different mechanics have been proposed for DoW at different times, and if they want to include the faction CA could probably invent a million more.

This is just looking for reasons to forecast doom and gloom.

FifthOfSpaghetti

Remember that time Beast men where released with the exact same mechanics as Orcs but instead they where a horde.

AHumpierRogue#5296

Draculasaurus said:

You're being paranoid. A million different mechanics have been proposed for DoW at different times, and if they want to include the faction CA could probably invent a million more.

This is just looking for reasons to forecast doom and gloom.

This. It just sounds like OP is having a case of paranoia.

haynams

A lot of evil or at best neutral aligned factions left. Perhaps the old dogs of war are being held back as a release faction for War 3 (along with kislev) to balance ogres, chaos dwarfs, and Daemons.

JungleElf#8229

Dogs of War could easily be featured in part 3 or just in a later DLC for 2.

Why in 3? Because mercenaries occupy quite a few tradeposts in the Dark Lands, like Pigbarter or the Sentinels (ESPECIALLY the Sentinels). They also use some Ogre units.

Warlocke

Krunch said:

Warlocke said:

DoW isn't a particularly interesting faction as far as I see it. They don't have a strong thematic identity. Insane Vampire Pirate Zombie Captain is about as easy a product to market as you can get.

DoW have a very clear faction identity-Italian Condottieri armies.

Also OP I really don't think that means much, the Tomb Kings also had mechanics for RoR, did that worry you then? Also for hybrid horde armies, I really don't think DoW had to be hybrid horde at all, I wouldn't mind a traditional faction at all anyway. The DoW lords for the most part are non mercenaries who have armies composed of Mercs, not mercenary lords anyway.

I didn’t say they don’t have a clear identity. I said they don’t have a strong thematic identity.

Kandenn#7078

Wow. They will find something else for DOW, even if 1 or 2 mechanics are basically the same it's not a big deal. They prove us they can do a lot with not that much, look at Norsca and Vampire coast.

No need to fall in a case of paranoia.

Gabs88#3442

Warlocke said:

DoW isn't a particularly interesting faction as far as I see it. They don't have a strong thematic identity. Insane Vampire Pirate Zombie Captain is about as easy a product to market as you can get.

They do have an identity, they could do anything with them regarding roster, mechanics and LLs. I think that if they want to do them, they will. Down the line I think they will come, after all look at Rome II even after 5 years it's getting new factions and content. Saying that the licence will en up by the time they finish game 3 is not a strong argument, GW are giving the licence of 40k to any small editor who want to make a game. Warhammer Fantasy is dead ,not talking about Age of Sigmar as it is something else, so this is the last chance to represent this setting in an RTS

NemoTheElf101#1472

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

Warlocke

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

I already did. XD

Gabs88#3442

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

How can you judge something you don't know ? I sense a cheap provocation

Ol_Nessie#9894

FifthOfSpaghetti said:

Remember that time Beast men where released with the exact same mechanics as Orcs but instead they where a horde.

Krunch said:

Also OP I really don't think that means much, the Tomb Kings also had mechanics for RoR, did that worry you then?

BM and GS shared 1 mechanic. The TK Legions of Legend are part of 1 mechanic. These are 3 mechanics that would be equally suitable for DoW in the same combination. That's why I pointed out in the OP that just 1 isn't cause for alarm, but 3 of them together might indicate something.

Warlocke said:

I didn’t say they don’t have a clear identity. I said they don’t have a strong thematic identity.

"Soldiers for hire" isn't a strong thematic identity, but pirates are?

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

That's subjective. Either way, the thread isn't about whether Mercenaries are interesting or not. If you don't have anything to say about the actual topic, leave it alone.

RikRiorik#9890

I have no doubt that when the Southern Realms are finally introduced they will have some unique mechanics, units and will look awesome.

Warlocke

ben8vtedu said:

Warlocke said:

I didn’t say they don’t have a clear identity. I said they don’t have a strong thematic identity.

"Soldiers for hire" isn't a strong thematic identity, but pirates are?

Either way, the thread isn't about whether Mercenaries are interesting or not. If you don't have anything to say about the actual topic, leave it alone.

The theme isn’t “pirates.” You are being disingenuous. It is vampire zombie pirates. You could show the promotional material to anybody in the world with a moderate exposure to American cultural soft power and they will give you that response. That is why they are thematically strong.

Most all of the factions in Warhammer are thematically strong. You can correctly tell a lot about them just by looking at them.

Dogs of War doesn’t have that advantage.

The reason why I brought this up is because for this very reason, mechanics aside, I would not at all be surprised if DoW were never included.

NemoTheElf101#1472

Gabs88 said:

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

How can you judge something you don't know ? I sense a cheap provocation

DOW is just an army set with some unique units and mechanics, but ultimately it's a means to play out armies made up of different units from other armies i.e. you could potentially have High Elven knights fighting alongside Dwarf warriors. Is that fun? Probably, but that's not exactly something unique or special. DOW isn't a faction or a race, but in-game a mercenary company.

The Vampire Coast is ripped straight from classical pirate lore and tales, but with an obvious twist with the undead. It also fits perfectly in the game's setting.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Draculasaurus said:

You're being paranoid. A million different mechanics have been proposed for DoW at different times, and if they want to include the faction CA could probably invent a million more.

This is just looking for reasons to forecast doom and gloom.

This.

Vampire Coast has made DoW and Araby more likely (CA is looking for small lists to stretch content, great news for us who want as many dlcs as possible)

Gabs88#3442

Nemotheelf said:

Gabs88 said:

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

How can you judge something you don't know ? I sense a cheap provocation

DOW is just an army set with some unique units and mechanics, but ultimately it's a means to play out armies made up of different units from other armies i.e. you could potentially have High Elven knights fighting alongside Dwarf warriors. Is that fun? Probably, but that's not exactly something unique or special. DOW isn't a faction or a race, but in-game a mercenary company.

The Vampire Coast is ripped straight from classical pirate lore and tales, but with an obvious twist with the undead. It also fits perfectly in the game's setting.

I don't understand people who are always comparing Vampire Coast and DoW as if the existance of one is the end of ther other. I don't especially like the thematic of the upcoming DLC, doesn't mean I will come and criticize Vampire Coast, some of us like DoW and think they could be fun

Nyxilis#3646

I don't agree.

For one, I don't expect the Dogs of War to be entirely independent armies if implimented. For the same reason GW cancelled them they don't want them as RoR going out to factions that can lose their identity and weaknesses layering it up with norscan mauraders or ranged units in general like for the Vampire Counts. So they were never gonna be across the board RoR or mercenaries in that vein.

They were now and always going to be tied to certain factions if they see completion. Southern Realms most likely. Tilea's fractured city states, Estalia, Border Princes maybe, and New World Colonies. Based off those Italian mercenary armies like they are. So right there is whom they're tied to and for that reason I don't see any horde mechanic at all for them.

Even if they did want them to be able to horde then settle that's very likely to see more play again with other races in general. Both Hobgoblins and more importantly the Ogre Kingdoms had migratory & permanent settlement bahavior. So now that Pandora's box is opened that one is going to be more liberally applied I think. This same statement also means why I don't much care about the shipbuilding voiding DoW's chances.

Infamy can be repackaged as fame. One of the mechanics that I think will also potentially be reused as things go along. Including backwards, right after making crafting for Tomb Kings they backtracked to Dwarfs, and I do not think at all that will be the last time we see a craft system. Or even the troop recruiting type as they might repurpose that for demons, or Chaos Dwarf slaves.

Now the pieces of 8, nah, because I don't think that would be all that similar. I think DoW RoR would be a series of magical items, like the pieces of 8, and quests, location specific holdings,grudge solving, and yes pay out.

So I don't really say it's all that dire myself.

Michael4537

I wouldn't say that the Vampire Coast mechanics rule out DoW or make them any less likely. They just aren't happening now.

Rikis

I still see DoW happening in the future, they might just be though the standing armies for the Southern Realms and give those nations unique campaign elements. Something along the lines of loyalty of units themselves instead of just the generals, being mercenaries and all.

And if they were to go all out and expand their roster, I have read some good examples like the marienburg landship to make them pop out more although Greek/roman like soldiers would be cool on their own.

tyrannus#8787

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

Mercenaries are awesome.

Someone had to say it.

Chukchata

I'd say mercenaries fit the fairly dark nature of the Warhammer world quite well - a group of misfits from various places, fighting for gold against the nastiest things the world can throw at them, standing on their own in a world with only shades of gray - and midnight black. However, Dogs of War is not just a mercenary list - they are also representative of the armies of Tilea and to a lesser extent Estalia and the Border princes, which covers a fair bit of the old world and I'd say several of the human settlements on the Vortex map currently represented with the Empire list. It is telling that most of the named characters from the old DoW lists are essentially the rulers of various Tilean principalities - Borgio the Besieger rules Miragliano, Lorenzo Lupo - Luccini, and Lucrezzia Belladonna is technically the wife of a series of princes of Pavona... but they all tend to suffer tragic accidents when making unwise choices.

So they are not just mercenaries, they are Italo-Spanish New World Conquistadors and Condottieri. It's okay not to care about it - I'd be perfectly fine if CA had ignored the very niche vampire coast list - but they definitely have a theme, a place on the map, and people who'd pay for the DLC.

I would not be surprised and I'd actually like it a lot if there is a mercenary mechanic for other factions, allowing them to use a limited number of units from similar cultures at higher upkeep. In fact, some of the factions routinely use auxiliaries, i.e. the Empire includes no small number of dwarves and some Kislevites, while big chaos warlords may often have chaos warriors, marauders, demons etc. under their banner.

FakeEmperor

Nemotheelf said:

Gabs88 said:

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

How can you judge something you don't know ? I sense a cheap provocation

DOW is just an army set with some unique units and mechanics, but ultimately it's a means to play out armies made up of different units from other armies i.e. you could potentially have High Elven knights fighting alongside Dwarf warriors. Is that fun? Probably, but that's not exactly something unique or special. DOW isn't a faction or a race, but in-game a mercenary company.

The Vampire Coast is ripped straight from classical pirate lore and tales, but with an obvious twist with the undead. It also fits perfectly in the game's setting.

Nemotheelf said:

Gabs88 said:

Nemotheelf said:

Undead vampire pirates are interesting.

Mercenaries are boring.

Someone had to say it.

How can you judge something you don't know ? I sense a cheap provocation

DOW is just an army set with some unique units and mechanics, but ultimately it's a means to play out armies made up of different units from other armies i.e. you could potentially have High Elven knights fighting alongside Dwarf warriors. Is that fun? Probably, but that's not exactly something unique or special. DOW isn't a faction or a race, but in-game a mercenary company.

The Vampire Coast is ripped straight from classical pirate lore and tales, but with an obvious twist with the undead. It also fits perfectly in the game's setting.

Elven knight fighting alongside dwarf warriors? Obviously you have never seen a DoW armybook... DoW are a race, in the WH sense, they have the same right to be called a race just as Bretonnia and TK...

tyrannus#8787

DoW being boring seriously boils down to one's personal opinion. It depends on your taste and interests. I really disliked the idea of total war warhammer, and the reason why i bought it in first place was my friend exploiting my love for 16th\17th century, and my desire for total war game set in that period. So he just convinced me by telling that there's a faction that's based on holy roman empire. So seeing Italy themed faction is what i really want.

Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268

Honestly... I don't think this is bad news... Creative Assembly are just doing the unexpected, and personally I love that. I would have loved to see Araby, but honestly... when I saw Vampire Coast, I was like omg... well played!!

Now, there is PLENTY of time for CA to create Araby and DoW... let us not fret about this kind of stuff... this is Creative Assembly! when their fans desire beautiful and wondrous things... CA always delivers... have faith.

But if you didn't read that... then here is a clip to argue, the British way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R6_Chr2vro

Nyxilis#3646

The interesting thing when people start saying there will likely be no DLC after the lord pack is that these DLC in general reinvigorate the franchise. If you look at this the main game of Warhammer II is selling globally more than the DLC is. Either people saw undead pirates and that's what they want or it finally had enough for them to finally move on it and today was their day. Or they'd been waiting for sales and now snagged it.

The sale likely drove Warhammer I up there, but also for all those people who had game 2 and decided it was worthwhile and snagged game 1 that acts as essentially DLC for 2.

But it sums up to, why on earth is a company that is made to earn money. Simply not going to add new factions that are in demand? Araby and DoW should have enough base appeal on aesthetic and human alone to snap up plenty and if they jazz em up with fleshed out rosters and great trailers you'll get this same effect and good will from the community. You're not going to get but a couple pointless cranky guys going oh no. You made a race, how dare you.

FakeEmperor

Sales went up because there was a huge discount this weekend on warhammer franchise...

LuciusCornelius#7004

I personally think their are numerous ways that CA could implement the DoW content, that could give unique and fun gameplay mechanics and experiences. I myself don't see a DoW tie in to the Vortex campaign, and so think they are probably more likely for game 3 at this point.

I don't see any logical correlation between the mechanics CA used for the Vampire Coast, and the eventual possibility of DoW existing or not existing in TW.