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Waywatchers

MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 678
edited October 2018 in Balancing Discussions
I want to bring up this cancer unit. Lately been seeing a lot of Wood Elf players who think all there is to playing WE is buying 4 Waywatchers, trying to nuke everything in the enemy army and, if that fails, dodging for 20 minutes. But in the hands of good players it's apparent that they guys are super strong.

One issue is that due to their long range most units can't shoot back at them. Crossbows and archers get dodged if the WE player has good micro due to the slow velocity of the missiles. Handgunners will never be in range. You can use some types of artillery to try and force an engagement but this is super sketchy due to the Waywatchers firepower and other sources of damage such as arrows of Kurnous and Glade Lady's bow fire atop dragon, so artillery tends to get taken out.

Suggestions? I've seen some really weak suggestions like -MD, but they really need their firepower toned down a bit. Waywatchers are a massive crutch unit and the matches are not interesting, IMO. I'm thinking -2 ammo and -10 range.
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Comments

  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Well, what I can say ...
    This is for Mortis Engine, god damn hyppies !!!
    On seriois note : I told it before and I tell it now - dont beat everything that moves with nerfbat. WW isnt OP by default, it is combination of their sniping potential and general straight style of large part of MP community. They forget about importance of scouting and pursuing units. WW must be detected to avoid alpha strike. And if you nerf best archers in game, what about other range ? Why WE should loose their range superiority ?
  • MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 678
    That's all true, but I don't want Waywatchers to become useless. They need a minor nerf.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Mukip said:

    That's all true, but I don't want Waywatchers to become useless. They need a minor nerf.

    I can understand - 2 ammo ( doubt it still ) but -10 range is too brutal. What about projectile speed tweak ? Or minor price increase ( when you have 4 ww your frontline is tissue paper hard + it is almost sure that WE will use squishy Wild Riders to protect them in fast manner and they are bad at tacking punches in their faces ).
  • saellsaell Registered Users Posts: 481
    Why dont u let best archers be best archers.ammo should stay the same cause hp has risen in wh2 compared to wh1 and they deserved the ammo buff.
  • MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 678

    Mukip said:

    That's all true, but I don't want Waywatchers to become useless. They need a minor nerf.

    I can understand - 2 ammo ( doubt it still ) but -10 range is too brutal. What about projectile speed tweak ? Or minor price increase ( when you have 4 ww your frontline is tissue paper hard + it is almost sure that WE will use squishy Wild Riders to protect them in fast manner and they are bad at tacking punches in their faces ).
    Projectile speed is certainly another potential avenue.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Mukip said:

    Mukip said:

    That's all true, but I don't want Waywatchers to become useless. They need a minor nerf.

    I can understand - 2 ammo ( doubt it still ) but -10 range is too brutal. What about projectile speed tweak ? Or minor price increase ( when you have 4 ww your frontline is tissue paper hard + it is almost sure that WE will use squishy Wild Riders to protect them in fast manner and they are bad at tacking punches in their faces ).
    Projectile speed is certainly another potential avenue.
    Yeap, because this " surpise mother****** ! " burst of AP dmg is depended on fast hit as well. If we tweak this parametre we will decrease risk for reciving side. But we must consider all pros and cons first.
  • MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 678
    edited October 2018
    That's good because it means that both sides get to do the missile dodging sillyness on a more fair footing. Alternately, increase missile velocities for everybody else.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,978
    Yeah, the are OP, but I also think they are carrying WE in a few matchups... very tricky to balance.

    I fully understand a MD-nerf, that would make it more rewarding to catch them. It doesn't really address the problem though.

    Personally I would like to see them capped at 2 and remain powerful. As long as you can spam 4 I think they need a change of some kind because they can be really toxic and annoying. You can have a glady on an eagle dart in and Prey Tyrion and there's a good chance that 1 volley from 4 waywatchers instapop him from stalk. One could say that it is worse than double star dragon ever was because a dual star dragon cost 4800 instead of 4400, and did not have stalk and did less damage. So in terms of gensniping I think WW are bigger offenders and we all know what happened to star dragon breaths.

    On the other hand, without strong WW I think WE gets trouble to deal with heavy cav and some monsters... vs HE I think WW are carrying super hard, without them I thin the MU would be heavily in HE favor.

    I think a MD decrease would be a safe nerf to start with, but then I also think that the accuracy needs to decrease, or hawkish precision be reworked. Against non-netted targets they are not too bad, it's the nuking from stalk that's troublesome I think, and most of all on single entities.

    Another thing that might help (or make it worse) would be to transfer Prey from Glady to the Waywatcher (max 1 prey per army though). It would come from stalk too, but at least less mobile and less slippery. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing but it has been discussed and I think it's interesting. Increased cast time on all Snares would help a little too, I think all spells got increased cast time and reduced range, but snare abilities I still think have a bit too short cast times.

    In any case, cap them at 2 and keep them powerful, then it at least takes 2 volleys to gensnipe, that offers some counter-play.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,667
    Well, I would agree they might be too strong in the hands of good players, but sniping characters is much less of an issue now. Waywatchers have less accuracy now so shooting at small moving targets at max distance is literally futile.
    Bowshabti have much better accuracy and at longer range. Also, since Prey's range was reduced to a 100m, it is much easier to avoid getting preyed with Single Entities.

    Funnily enough, I do remember how the main gripe with Waywatchers was character sniping.

    I don't know... tricky to balance. A very small window between 'too effective' and 'not worth bringing'.

    Taking away 2 ammo seems like the safest solution if the consensus is that they overperform. But regardless of whether they do or don't, I agree they make some matches boring.

    Honestly, I think Waywatchers (and a few other elites) could be limited and that might be the best solution but CA has generally avoided that.

  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,664
    Agreed, they need a small nerf, or my favorite options generally when it comes to kiting Units is to cap them, because 1 or 2 isnt bad, but when it come to 4-5 there it becomes a problem


  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,861
    edited October 2018
    I feel - 6MD and +25m on hawkish precision is a good nerf for them.

    I feel -10 range would be ok if HE archers also get -10 range, otherwise there is no way for WE to Fight HE's at the moment. This would mean that Shadow warriors would have same range as waywatchers while basic archers would not.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,217
    I really don't know how I feel about capping any units, on the one hand I'm really not a fan of arbitrarily restricting people's army choices and play styles, but on the other hand capping units which can carry matchups, like WW, might encourage people to diversify their builds and change their strategy, which is usually good.

    With respect to WW, I think any nerfs to their range firepower have to be done in small increments over multiple patches, maybe start with 1-2 ammo reduction, and see how they go, then if needed, adjust hawkish precision range or projectile velocity. Otherwise they'll go back to being not worth bringing.

  • XiphosXiphos Registered Users Posts: 181
    I've been wanting -2 ammos so they cannot solo an entire army by themselves, then -10 range on top of that so other archers can have more chances to reach them.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,861
    Xiphos said:

    I've been wanting -2 ammos so they cannot solo an entire army by themselves, then -10 range on top of that so other archers can have more chances to reach them.

    Only reason i dont agree with this is that they the only reason WE can play vs Dwarfs. If this comes along with a buff in other areas to make that match up possible and with HE archer -10 range than i think it be fine.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    Waywatchers are fine. No nerfs needed. Vs WE always bring... secret!
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 763
    edited October 2018
    wouldn't increasing all projectile speed (along with slight accuracy reduction to avoid gen sniping) for everything in the game solve a lot of issues? Archers would be better against cav, missile cav and WW easier to counter without needing nerf, etc. Also, whole regiments actively dodging volleys is maybe the only thing in common between history and warhammer logics: it's not a thing ^^
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,667
    In theory, reducing damage and increasing all projectile speed should make missile dodging less of a thing. Ranged damage would be smaller but more consistent.

    But, it would require a lot of rebalancing and could potentially lead to a lot of unforeseen consequences. I'm pretty sure CA isn't ready for such rebalance, in game with so many moving parts.

    On the other hand, before suggesting strong nerfs, it is important to note Waywatchers do serve as a "hole plugger" in Wood Elf roster. There is no melee infantry that can go toe to toe with elite melee infantry from other factions. Likewise, Wild Riders are the only melee cavalry unit, and while they are very good at what they do, they can not contest other heavy cavalry.

    I wouldn't touch range, -2 ammo should be enough. If after that they require more nerfs, then we could have another discussion.

    I do understand that wouldn't change the 'boring problem' in all cases, like it wouldn't really change HE-WE matchup which will probably still continue to be Shadow Warriors and Waywatchers trying to get a hit on each other, but it might help in other matchups...
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 763

    In theory, reducing damage and increasing all projectile speed should make missile dodging less of a thing. Ranged damage would be smaller but more consistent.

    But, it would require a lot of rebalancing and could potentially lead to a lot of unforeseen consequences. I'm pretty sure CA isn't ready for such rebalance, in game with so many moving parts.

    ...

    maybe TWW3 then. But it can also be done often, incrementally and with monitoring, like +20% speed each update and see how it goes... and experienced people could at least start discussing the possible consequences, winners and losers.

    I think manual arrow dodging creates too much of a gap between top players and the rest, meaning they have very different experiences of the game, meaning discussions are often fruitless as perceptions are so different.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    Green0 said:

    Xiphos said:

    I've been wanting -2 ammos so they cannot solo an entire army by themselves, then -10 range on top of that so other archers can have more chances to reach them.

    -10 range would only make a difference in matchup vs HE and no other matchups and vs HE I’d say it’s more HE than WE sided so I see no point in this nerf.

    Waywatchers are fine. No nerfs needed. Vs WE always bring... secret!

    Bretonnia?
    No I mean certain units of each faction. Still secret.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875

    In theory, reducing damage and increasing all projectile speed should make missile dodging less of a thing. Ranged damage would be smaller but more consistent.

    But, it would require a lot of rebalancing and could potentially lead to a lot of unforeseen consequences. I'm pretty sure CA isn't ready for such rebalance, in game with so many moving parts.

    ...

    maybe TWW3 then. But it can also be done often, incrementally and with monitoring, like +20% speed each update and see how it goes... and experienced people could at least start discussing the possible consequences, winners and losers.

    I think manual arrow dodging creates too much of a gap between top players and the rest, meaning they have very different experiences of the game, meaning discussions are often fruitless as perceptions are so different.
    I agree with this. I don't have a problem with a BIT of arrow dodging but it can get a bit ridiculous. You should not be able to dodge more than 75% of arrows in a volley as you can currently. But I also agree that caution is the name of the game here, and projectile speed should be increased incrementally over multiple patches.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,365
    I've never had much of a trouble with them. The trick is going wide, while their front line is busy fighting they have nothing to defend themselves from light cav or hounds.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,861

    I've never had much of a trouble with them. The trick is going wide, while their front line is busy fighting they have nothing to defend themselves from light cav or hounds.

    You play norsca though yeah? Norsca is one of the few factions that you should never pick waywatcehrs vs others are BM, Skaven and GS, but if they become standard vs those factions also than you know the unit is OP. I dont have issue with their damage but i do have issue with their defenses.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,693
    Another vote for -2 Ammo.

    Does anyone know whether they suffer an accuracy debuff when firing backwards? I'd be interested to know if this was an avenue. I.E if firing backwards- kiting- they suffer an accuracy debuff of some kind, same for all 360 units really.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,693
    Green0 said:

    another vote? Lol what is this some sort of parliament, and whoever is unlucky and doesn’t use forums needs to suck it up? Provide reasoning at least.

    My reasoning reflects the opinions already stated on the matter, repeating the same reasons is tiresome.

    I support the proposed point of minus 2 ammo. Rather than be a quiet bystander consuming forum content agreeing but offering no input and therefore being unheard I decided to voice my opinion in support of the proposal.

    I then offered some further information to chew over as an alternative means of balancing i.e provided added value to the overall debate.

    The OP has already suggested lowering MD is weak and I agree. The problem is not combat with WW, as merely tying them up with anything is a result as they can no longer fire, which draws us to the actual meat and potatoes of the debate...actually getting anywhere near them or, as per the OP reducing their firepower. I have addressed both those points.




  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,861

    Green0 said:

    another vote? Lol what is this some sort of parliament, and whoever is unlucky and doesn’t use forums needs to suck it up? Provide reasoning at least.

    My reasoning reflects the opinions already stated on the matter, repeating the same reasons is tiresome.

    I support the proposed point of minus 2 ammo. Rather than be a quiet bystander consuming forum content agreeing but offering no input and therefore being unheard I decided to voice my opinion in support of the proposal.

    I then offered some further information to chew over as an alternative means of balancing i.e provided added value to the overall debate.

    The OP has already suggested lowering MD is weak and I agree. The problem is not combat with WW, as merely tying them up with anything is a result as they can no longer fire, which draws us to the actual meat and potatoes of the debate...actually getting anywhere near them or, as per the OP reducing their firepower. I have addressed both those points.




    -2 ammo would do nothing to their issue of nuking targets in groups of 4 which seems to be the reasons for complaints, all this would do is make it harder for WE's to fight dwarfs and that is all. Nerfing MD and even speed and hawkish percision range would make them easier to shut down as well as reducing their dps.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,693
    -2 ammo on 4 units is -8 ammo/volleys in total, thats 2-4 units of Empire Knights still alive depending on RNG and front, rear fire etc., Or 2-3 Wizards still alive.

    or, more importantly additional pressure on the WW player's targeting decisions.

    I have no issue as such with their speed, I have an issue if their accuracy is the same when moving away from a pursuing unit. Thats the problem not the speed.

    Also not sure reducing precision range is useful as it will hamstring them against armoured range targets such as Bowshabti.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,861
    edited October 2018

    -2 ammo on 4 units is -8 ammo/volleys in total, thats 2-4 units of Empire Knights still alive depending on RNG and front, rear fire etc., Or 2-3 Wizards still alive.

    or, more importantly additional pressure on the WW player's targeting decisions.

    I have no issue as such with their speed, I have an issue if their accuracy is the same when moving away from a pursuing unit. Thats the problem not the speed.

    Also not sure reducing precision range is useful as it will hamstring them against armoured range targets such as Bowshabti.

    Thats not how it works though, this would only be effect in late game, it would only come into effect after their used their first 20 ammo which by your calculations at that time they should have killed 10-20 units of empire knights. If they killed that much by that time the game is over already.

    -2 ammo would do absolutely nothing to stop the issue people have with them now which is unit nuking.
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