is it me, or do the Lizardmen units not really have a role of their own?

Nielspeterdejong

So I just saw the lifestream, and was overjoyed that the Mammoths from Norsca now absolutely demolish the Deckhand Guard (the vampire elites with halberds). This means that the unit finally has his own role, and is no longer mediocre!

However, this brings me to another problem: The Lizardmen Roster.

I loved playing them, but they always felt like they were missing something. They don't have elite Infantry (even though they have Kroxigor), and have to focus on monsters. It would be nice if they could get something Lore specific, and which gives them their own role.

Like having Saurus Warriors with two handed weapons (armor piercing), or give the saurus a mechanic that makes them stronger the longer they are in battle (like the rage mechanic) with the downside being that they rampage so you have no more control over them (thus making the new anti-rempage Coldblooded more useful).

What do you think? Are they a bit lackbuster now, or does CA intend to give more different units later on? (Don't get me wrong, Saurus are great against low tier infantry. Just not against mid to high tier ones).

Mogwai_Man#4978

Lizardmen and skaven are getting their lord pack in 2019.

Player#902441

Everyone was going wild about the Mammoth obliterating the Depth Guard, but bear in mind the attack was in their side and they were in a very thin formation, the Mammoth was able to just walk right through them. Might have been a different matter if it was head on.

As for the Lizzies, like the Ratties they're a bit naff at the moment, and will likely stay that way until the Lord Pack in 2019 gives them some of their missing stuff.

ladymissfit#8688

Saurus with great weapons would be great but also making temple guard at least able to go up against their DE/HE counterparts would be fitting as well since they currently do jack squat saurus with spears don't already do just about as well.

chrissher7

I am so dissatisfied with a campaign first because of lizardmen and the skaven weakness because of them lacking units rather than lords. Their roster honestly is the most thin of every core race from both games despite the more complete rosters pre release promise. After removing non tabletop variants large monsters for example are quite thin on ground so that with not much others things makes a bad roster. Really they needed the first lord pack or for theirs to follow swiftly. As such for creative assembly to waste months on an admittedly cool looking but footnote race is a travesty. Doubly so when considering that their rival race also has some problems even though they are more complete initially. It smacks of priorities that have been gotten all wrong.

Nielspeterdejong

With the Coldblooded no longer healing, I would love it if the Lizardmen receive other boons. Like Saurus have a trait that builds up the longer they are in combat (like norsca), but only when not rampaging?

Dracklor#9977

Mogwai_Man said:

Lizardmen and skaven are getting their lord pack in 2019.

Yeah they better get a **** ton of nice thing I love them but they become so much repetitive

JDog91

Saurus wouldn't really work with great weapons. The Temple Guard wield halberds one handed BECAUSE they're ridiculously strong, and saurus are physically the same. They would just be one handed great weapons.

I think having blessed saurus warriors in MP would work as their ap values are far better. Increase the price and let them be taken in mp. It gives the LM kind of a mid-tier infantry unit, even though saurus themselves are pretty much mid-tier, but temple guard are kind of just under top tier troops for lizardmen but are limited to an anti-large role.

Having anti-infantry temple guard would work too, but they would need new weapons.

Razmirth#5806

I find that Saurus and temple guard are fantastic, but are sort of mid tier. They are fantastic early game, but end game I find TG struggle vs other end game AP anti infantry. They arnt bad at all, just need some support with magic healing and revivacation bastilidon etc.

I also find their Calvary is in the same situation. Not bad by any means, but not amazing like demigryphs or grail knights. They are comparable to CoK, which is ironic since in table top, cold one knights were considered to be one of the best (in tww2 they are average id say).


Then again, All of this doesn’t matter anyway if u play Maz, since he Murders half the enemy line before they even get to you.

And if you play as kroq, he gives such a boost in armour to Dino’s that they are nigh-unkillable in campaign.

So I do agree OP that lizardmen seem to struggle a bit with variety in units, but they still seem to hold their own fairly well.

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

Mogwai_Man said:

Lizardmen and skaven are getting their lord pack in 2019.

2 years after the game came out we will be able to play lizardmen. And this is said as if it is a reasonable response to having a completely lackluster and unfinished pair of factions which were the CORE factions of game 2.

Canuovea#6291

Well, probably not two full years. But close.

chrissher7

Canuovea said:

Well, probably not two full years. But close.

It should and likely is the first couple of months as after would realistically give a longer interval than even queen and the crone when they also were redoing norsca at same time.

Nielspeterdejong

Personally I'd wish they would give the current Saurus and Temple Guard a chance to become able to compete with late tier troops provided you support them well enough. Perhaps something that works well with the new Cold Blooded (no more healing, but ends Rampage) feature?

How about something like this trait for Saurus Warriors and Temple Guard?:

Disciplined Focus: This unit is able to fight in a disciplined formation, further strengthened by their resolve over the course of battle. This trait has 3 stages, but the unit does not receive the boons nor charges them further up once it is rampaging. Stage 1: The unit receives a +6 to Melee Defense, Stage 2: the unit gains a bonus against infantry of 8, Stage 3: The unit receives faster attacks. Each stage occurs after 45 seconds in combat. Once Rampage is removed the unit may again receive this boon and also continue to build up its stages. Rampaging will not reset it, but leaving combat will

Zergles

...I think LM infantry is really good. Their thing is still big dinos though. Not elite infantry. Hence their Saurus being "early game" units...who you end up using late game due to experience and upgrades.

Temple Guard, at rank 6, basically become unbreakable and will grind almost anything down.

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

Nielspeterdejong said:

I loved playing them, but they always felt like they were missing something. They don't have elite Infantry (even though they have Kroxigor), and have to focus on monsters. It would be nice if they could get something Lore specific, and which gives them their own role.

Like having Saurus Warriors with two handed weapons (armor piercing), or give the saurus a mechanic that makes them stronger the longer they are in battle (like the rage mechanic) with the downside being that they rampage so you have no more control over them (thus making the new anti-rempage Coldblooded more useful).

What do you think? Are they a bit lackbuster now, or does CA intend to give more different units later on? (Don't get me wrong, Saurus are great against low tier infantry. Just not against mid to high tier ones).

I feel 100% the same. I really enjoy saurus as a unit and wish there were more types of them. However, I also understood that lizardmen are meant to have a very uniform infantry of just saurus. That's the lizardman way. The saurus main line is really unlike any other faction's main line. They serve as both tarpit and upper tier infantry in one. Their rampage made them sort of a fire and forget main line, but their high armor and damage made that okay. It allowed for more to be done with skirmishing skinks and mobile dinosaurs.

Either there needs to be a better variety of saurus infantry or there needs to be a better variety of special units and monsters which do NOT rampage.

Fraxinus#9211

Zergles said:

...I think LM infantry is really good. Their thing is still big dinos though. Not elite infantry. Hence their Saurus being "early game" units...who you end up using late game due to experience and upgrades.

Temple Guard, at rank 6, basically become unbreakable and will grind almost anything down.

Temple Guard get curbstomped by any end-game anti-infantry unit, like Swordmasters. If their "thing" is big dinos, why did they remove what was probably the best way of healing said big dinos? Revifification Crystal would be a waste to use on a Carnosaur when you could be keeping your Saurus in the fight for longer with it instead. It was super easy to pull a big dino out of an infantry dogpile because of their size and mass, and then pop Cold-Blooded on them when they're safely behind your lines. Stegadons will still be alright, but Carnosaurs are too squishy for long-term slugfests without a source of healing like that.

This was mostly a nerf to heroes and big dinos, so I don't think one can safely argue that big dinos are "their thing". Their things are, in no particular order: heavy infantry, big dinos, and magic. If they're going to nerf one of those things (in this case, dinos) it would make sense to buff one of the others (such as heavy infantry).

Sephlock

Nielspeterdejong said:

With the Coldblooded no longer healing, I would love it if the Lizardmen receive other boons. Like Saurus have a trait that builds up the longer they are in combat (like norsca), but only when not rampaging?

Wait what? What does coldblooded do now? What did I miss?

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

Sephlock said:

Wait what? What does coldblooded do now? What did I miss?

Cold-blooded now temporarily removes Rampage on a single unit.

Many people think this is amazing. So they kept the worst mechanic in the game where you lose control of your units, but now lords can temporarily gain you control of your own unit back, a single one of your own units. So now there is an ability to return control of one unit, the thing which every other faction has permanently on all their units all of the time.

Fraxinus#9211

Sephlock said:

Nielspeterdejong said:

With the Coldblooded no longer healing, I would love it if the Lizardmen receive other boons. Like Saurus have a trait that builds up the longer they are in combat (like norsca), but only when not rampaging?

Wait what? What does coldblooded do now? What did I miss?

In the Everchosen tournament, they showed a change to Cold-Blooded that will presumably be coming with the update alongside the Vampire Coast DLC. It no longer heals or reduces MA / MD - instead, it removes Rampage and gives a leadership buff to the unit.

Razmirth#5806

endikux said:

Sephlock said:

Wait what? What does coldblooded do now? What did I miss?

Cold-blooded now temporarily removes Rampage on a single unit.

Many people think this is amazing. So they kept the worst mechanic in the game where you lose control of your units, but now lords can temporarily gain you control of your own unit back, a single one of your own units. So now there is an ability to return control of one unit, the thing which every other faction has permanently on all their units all of the time.

“Here ya go guys, now your unit will temporarily not suck, and then go back to sucking shortly after!!”

TBH, it can give you a chance to pull a unit out so it doesn’t suicide itself and recover stamina, which helps. But I don’t know if it’s better or worse than before.

Valkaar#2507

I'm excited about being able to mitigate Rampage some, but I don't understand why this had to come at the expense of healing. I really don't think it would have been OP if they had been given one, without retracting the other.

Especially since Cold Blooded is one of the Lizardmen's most effective healing. Let's be real here, revivification crystals and apotheosis don't restore hardly any HP at all, especially in comparison to other healing spells/abilities/items available to other factions. Cold-Blooded was one of the stronger/more reliable sources of healing for the roster.

I don't know, without seeing the patch notes, I think it's a little too early to be too upset....for the moment, yeah I'm pretty disappointed by this change. Like great, I can use Horned Ones now....but it's going to be harder to justify bringing big dinos, particularly carnosaurs, which were a lot of fun to use.

^^This is all MP focused feedback.

SP, I don't think it will make a strong difference one way or the other.

Sephlock

I dunno, it might make me more likely to use certain units...

Wait, will it work on Manticores?

steam_165171714789pPAEKOH

Valkaar said:

I don't know, without seeing the patch notes, I think it's a little too early to be too upset....for the moment, yeah I'm pretty disappointed by this change. Like great, I can use Horned Ones now....

Except you now have to apply that sentiment to Cold One Riders along with Horned Ones... because they added rampage to Cold One Riders as well.

So if you bring 3 or 4 units of cavalry, you get to choose which 1 of those 4 you want to control while they other 3 rampage.

Fraxinus#9211

endikux said:

Valkaar said:

I don't know, without seeing the patch notes, I think it's a little too early to be too upset....for the moment, yeah I'm pretty disappointed by this change. Like great, I can use Horned Ones now....

Except you now have to apply that sentiment to Cold One Riders along with Horned Ones... because they added rampage to Cold One Riders as well.

So if you bring 3 or 4 units of cavalry, you get to choose which 1 of those 4 you want to control while they other 3 rampage.

So cavalry is less viable because it ALL rampages now, dinos are less viable because you can't heal them anywhere near as well... what do we have left? Saurus are great but they aren't strong enough to be viable all on their own. Skinks sure as hell can't carry an army.

I'll reserve judgment until I see the patch notes, but the ONLY way this isn't a huge nerf to an already sub-optimal faction is if there's an across-the-board stat buff for, like... everything.

psychoak#6605

Considering you need a late game anti-infantry unit like swordmasters, in order to effectively kill saurus warriors, I fail to see the big problem here.

They hit like a tank, and they tank like a tank. if they actually had an elite infantry unit that walked all over everyone else, it would be impossible to fight them with half the bleeding factions. That their armored, AP anti large unit, can't cope with their hard counter, is so not a problem.

Valkaar#2507

psychoak said:

Considering you need a late game anti-infantry unit like swordmasters, in order to effectively kill saurus warriors, I fail to see the big problem here.

They hit like a tank, and they tank like a tank. if they actually had an elite infantry unit that walked all over everyone else, it would be impossible to fight them with half the bleeding factions. That their armored, AP anti large unit, can't cope with their hard counter, is so not a problem.

I agree with you in that I think Lizardmen infantry is working as intended. I understand they don't compete in the elite tier infantry department (which some people want them to cuz of how good Temple Guards were in TT)...but I'm okay with leaving Lizardmen infantry alone under the "different races are different" philosophy.

Still, if infantry aren't going to the be the defining trait of the faction....then the dinos have to pull extra weight....which looks less likely now with this healing nerf I can't mitigate incoming missile fire as well anymore, or arty duel with my Stegadons, or keep my Slaan topped off, or cycle charge my carnosaurs through their anti-large infantry, take damage on the way, then heal while they're disrupting missile units as effectively.

It's just a lot of things that got a lot harder to do all for the sake of now being able cycle charge with slightly above average Lizardmen cav. I mean, getting some extra cav utility is nice...but I don't think the trade off is worth it. Nor does the trade off 'feel' right. Lizardmen aren't supposed to be the cav faction. They're supposed to be the dino faction! Even if the buff/nerf was a perfect 1 to 1 trade-off....which it isn't....for faction flavor I'm going to prefer that the dinos work over the cav working 9 times out of 10. If I really am feeling cavalry today, i'll go play Bretonnia.

I don't know...I mean sure...they could buff up Lizardmen infantry to compensate....but tbh, I think I just want my healing back.

Michael4537

Valkaar said:

Like great, I can use Horned Ones

*Horned One* since the ability only applies to one unit and the rest of the LM cav has rampage, so Horned Ones will probably be the only viable cav now (but limited to 1 or 2 per game).

ArecBalrin#2350

I don't understand the premise of the thread. It's been a while since I played LM, but they were the first race I tried for game 2 and Saurus were fine against higher-tier infantry units and utterly dominated those equal or lesser on the recruitment ladder. I didn't even need to fill any army to 20 unit cards until many turns in as Saurus arranged in a protective formation were better than even Dwarf Warriors at keeping themselves alive.

It could just be the way I prefer to play battles; I intensely dislike unit match-ups and don't think unit roles should be based on what unit types they are good against, but what role they have as part of their own army.

Michael4537

ArecBalrin said:

I don't understand the premise of the thread. It's been a while since I played LM, but they were the first race I tried for game 2 and Saurus were fine against higher-tier infantry units and utterly dominated those equal or lesser on the recruitment ladder. I didn't even need to fill any army to 20 unit cards until many turns in as Saurus arranged in a protective formation were better than even Dwarf Warriors at keeping themselves alive.

It could just be the way I prefer to play battles; I intensely dislike unit match-ups and don't think unit roles should be based on what unit types they are good against, but what role they have as part of their own army.

In MP matchups-are far more important than SP, but aside from that isn't what a unit is good against its role in the army? Saurus Warriors, for example, are good against mid to low-tier troops, preferable with low armor. They really struggle against infantry with high stats and high armor and are therefore more of a front-line unit. That is their role in the army, which reflects what units they are good against. Temple Guard are good against armor large units, and therefore their role is as a backline or flank unit. Carnosaurs are good against other large targets, and their role in the army is to eliminate such targets.

One of the biggest problems is that, after Saurus Warriors, the Lizardmen don't have a good anti-infantry infantry unit. Sure Temple Guard can work, but they don't trade effectively with ANY unit with AP, so you have to rely on large dinos for the killing power. And this is especially noticeable against factions like dwarfs where Saurus struggle and there are a lot of ranged units to kill the damaging-dealing dinos. You HAVE to rely almost entirely on monsters to carry the battle. Sure, is SP I was fielding Saurus doomstacks by the end of the campaign (because the tech buffs are SO good), but that was mostly because I was tired of always having to rely on monsters, and without those buffs or in MP Saurus just aren't up to killing anything like Chaos Warriors very easily.

manonmoon12

Honestly i'm hoping that the new dlc the LM are getting will change everything because skinks with great weapons with some improved stats will help this problem, but I do think TG need a buff or TG with great weapons just for some nastiness on the battle field.