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How to fix Lizardmen and Rampage

endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 494
This is a serious attempt at addressing an important issue. I try to address the issue without simply complaining about it, so people can understand the underlying nature of the problem. I then offer two solutions which I feel are very plausible in the current state of the game. It's long and not a casual read. I welcome any critical feedback or comments.

Tabletop Lizardmen are defined by 4 traits:
  • Cold-Blooded - improves morale test
  • Scaly Skin - improves armor save
  • Aquatic - strider in wet terrain
  • Predatory Fighters - improve attack with the chance to pursue unless a skink is present
Three of these were fairly easily translated for TWW into higher morale, higher armor, and strider. The fourth seemed to be implemented in the spirit it was intended but with problematic consequences.

Predatory Fighters' improved attack was traded for spotting hidden units. And a chance to pursue an engaged enemy was traded for a loss of control if damage was taken past a certain threshold.

In the tabletop Predatory Fighters has a very pro/con synergy. Your saurus and kroxigors have a chance at attacking more often, with the risk of chasing a unit you chose to engage with. Yes, the loss of control mechanic is there, but there is a very subtle but key distinction: the opportunity to lose control is based on the lizardmen player's action NOT by his opponent's action.

This is a key distinction that must be understood. To give an example:

In Tabletop if your saurus are shot at there is zero chance they will pursue (rampage). If they are attacked by another unit there is zero chance they will pursue (rampage). It is only when they attack and roll critical that they have a chance to pursue (rampage).

This rule is completely reversed in Total War Warhammer as rampage is activated by a unit taking damage. Damage is only ever done by the opposing player. This means that it is always the opposing player who is deciding when a lizardman unit goes into rampage and never the lizardmen player as the LM player is never desiring his unit to take damage.

Two identical melee engagements in TT vs TWW: A unit of saurus engages in melee combat with a unit of debuffed infantry with 0 melee attack.

In Tabletop the saurus roll critical 6's, gain extra attacks, fall into "rampage", and then must pursue the unit because of their predatory instinct.
In Total War Warhammer there is no chance of rampage occurring because the enemy unit is debuffed to a 0 attack and cannot damage the saurus and therefor can never activate their rampage mechanic.

Let's take a brief aside and examine the lore and nature of this special rule and lizardmen. The Predatory psychology is applied because these are animalistic fighters who can forget their more sentient side in the heat of combat. They are bred to fight and have the instincts of carnivorous attack machines. The original rule is based on the loss of control as they see their prey flee from them, like a hunting animal who cannot resist the chase. This is entirely in line with the psychology of these creatures. They are not driven into a mindless state of rage, they are driven into a lust for the chase. That is a very important distinction. What the TWW version of rampage is saying is that doing enough damage drives a unit into a mindless state, like an animal in a bear trap that rages against everything around it. That might be a valid argument to make about animal psychology, but it was never the original rule and it has very difficult consequences.

Now back to our argument about mechanics. There is another thing to consider in the transition of the original tabletop Predatory Fighters rule to Rampage, and that is Frenzy. In tabletop the Frenzy rule was even more impactful to a player's control of their units than the Predatory Fighter Rule. Units with Frenzy had to take a leadership roll when in position to charge in order to avoid charging.

Please understand the significance here. A unit with Frenzy had to resist charging the enemy line if they were merely in position to be able to do so. No damage needed to be traded. No attack had to first occur. They merely had to be looking at the juicy enemy target and they might not be able to control themselves from just running headlong into them. This meant a unit with frenzy could run right into a wall of spears or an enemy which could counter them.

Would all the other factions players enjoy watching their units with Frenzy just run at the enemy, completely out of their control and likely to their doom, merely by being close enough to do so? Would that be a fun mechanic?

Why is it frenzy is not treated this way and predatory sense is treated this way? Ponder that.

On to my suggestions for Rampage and the Lizardmen in general.

There have been some great points made about stat comparisons and whether rampage can even be considered a trade-off negative ability as saurus stats/price comparisons with other units of comparable price are not that amazing. I'm going to avoid this and merely talk about the mechanic itself and the lizardmen as a whole.

There are two methods I will suggest for keeping the "loss of control" mechanic which will minimize the pain the lizardmen player feels.

Method 1: Never Give up, Never Surrender

This method takes into account the cold-blooded nature which grants high morale and the predatory nature which causes a loss of control and need to continue the chase/fight. Rampage is NOT activated by damage at all, a saurus unit can be down to 1 model and not go into rampage. Instead Rampage is activated by morale loss. When a unit is going to route or break it instead enters Rampage and pursues whatever is nearest, exactly as it currently does.

The idea here is that Saurus are bred for war and disciplined fighters, bu they are not unthinking robots. When they are pushed past their limits of mental endurance they lose their sentient ability to follow commands and instead regress into their animalistic nature. Being predators made for battle they do not flee but instead go into a hunt or die mindset and will attack anything they see, regardless of the risk to themselves.

This method closely follows the current mechanic in many ways but without the frequent activation that currently occurs. It also allows the lizardman player FAR more control over preventing rampage from occurring as there are many methods to keep morale high. It also synergizes far more naturally with how armies are controlled as maintaining high morale is already something you want to do. It means that having a lord or hero nearby will help prevent rampage and they help boost morale, and it gives more levers to the player as there are many spells and items which keep morale up. It evens allows for the current change to Cold Blooded to work even more effectively as that now removes rampage and improves morale, thereby regaining control of that unit for real if morale can be repaired for good.

The enemy player still has the capacity to cause rampage as they can target morale with spells, rear charges, and inflicting catastrophic losses. This is more of a challenge however as causing units to route is not as easy as merely applying damage.

Consider the "challenge" of choosing a unit to throw into rampage through ranged attacks before the main engagement, versus choosing a unit to route through the same method (hint: it doesn't really happen in the ranged phase). You have to catch units out of place and alone to cause routing before the main engagement has even occurred, that requires good tactical play. Telling all your range to fire at "that group of saurus or that feral dino" doesn't compare with the forethought needed to catch a unit out of position with cavalry or skirmishers.

Method 2: I'm Winning, now want Food!

This method tries to mimic the original rule while still fitting the TWW way of play. It returns full control of rampage to the Lizardman player with zero chance that the enemy player can initiate rampage. It also goes into the buff/debuff territory of giving Predatory Sense a bonus to attack with the offset of a risk of loss of control. This method would also allow for even more units to be affected by a possible loss of control since it is entirely in the player's hands.

Similar to Norsca's Berserk and Rage, Predatory Sense is a ramping-up ability with a high risk. When a Lizardman unit is Winning combat he starts to gain slight bonuses to attack with the risk of eventually entering a Rampage status of total loss of control.

When combat is even or losing the unit's stats are unchanged.
When Slightly Winning combat there is a +2 MA
When Winning combat there is a +4 MA
When Significantly Winning there is a +6 MA and the unit either goes directly into Rampage or has a High Chance of entering Rampage.

Again, this closely mimics the original intention of the Predatory nature of the Lizardmen. The bloodlust of being highly successful at attacking an enemy can cause their hunting instincts to take over and they see their foe as prey instead of enemy.

This is a far more dynamic ability as it both rewards the player while at the same time possibly heavily punishing them BUT it is always at the player's own discretion. The player is in total control and must decide when to risk this possible loss of control.

Consider the scenarios when throwing your saurus and kroixgors into combat. Do you want to mulch through that line of hundreds of skaven slaves with your saurus infantry when it is almost entirely assured that they will go into Rampage at the ease with which they will slaughter pathetic ratmen? Will the enemy player taunt and lure you with such juicy targets that he knows will obviously die but at the same time removing highly valuable and expensive units from your control? Do you wish to improve your stalemate battle of saurus against mid-to-higher tier infantry with a spell boosting their combat stats, which will steamroll into even higher Melee Attack when they start winning, but risk losing control of them?

These now become decisions you make as the player controlling your units instead of merely watching in frustration as a negative status effect merely occurs to your units completely out of your control.

In conclusion: There are definitely ways of making a loss of control effect work without frustrating the player. It's an interesting concept in theory but must always be treated with extreme care and forethought. Loss of control in a game is not something to be treated lightly. We enjoy these games precisely because we directly control our units, even when it does not make logical sense how that could happen. How does the commander of an army control the exact path a group of war hounds take as they charge a mile behind the enemy lines? No military commander controls the exact pathing of his human squads even in modern warfare. This is obviously something that happens in the game because we enjoy controlling these units directly instead of giving general orders and hoping things turn out well as we watch "thinking" soldiers out of our control.

The key is putting the activation of this mechanic, and as much "control" in the loss of unit control, into the hands of the player who owns these units instead of his opponent's. That takes away the feeling of hopelessness and frustration as much as possible while still adding the wild gamble of using an animalistic faction.
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Comments

  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 4,933
    I've already suggested #2

    They should only rampage when winning combat and get a small MA or Damage buff.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 4,933
    Cold blooded should just reduce the amount of time your units spend routing, they should rally in about half the time.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    I like both ideas, especially #2 as its more accurate to tt and would be good in a tw setting, excellent post. I do wish youd posted it in the balance area though.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 4,442
    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.
  • endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 494

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Wow. Just wow. I have no words. Do you even play Lizardmen?
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,580
    edited October 2018

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Yhea a single target spell that has a 60 sec cooldown solves the problem when your frontline breaks ranks. Or you have more then one cav units. /s

    They are adding rampage to cold one riders, meaning that LM has no cav without rampage!

    I honestly like the 2nd option, making it somewhat of a reverse SoS buff.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 4,442
    endikux said:

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Wow. Just wow. I have no words. Do you even play Lizardmen?
    Uagrim said:

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Yhea a single target spell that has a 60 sec cooldown solves the problem when your frontline breaks ranks. Or you have more then one cav units. /s

    They are adding rampage to cold one riders, meaning that LM has no cav without rampage!

    I honestly like the 2nd option, making it somewhat of a reverse SoS buff.
    I don't mind the Saurus Warriors sticking it out in melee.. The only ones that really suffers from Rampage are Kroxigors and Cold One Riders, since these units are either dependent on cycle charging and/or need to be careful of halberd units and other anti-large..
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,580
    Which is something the new Cold blooded doesn't solve, since you have more then one cold one rider, not to mention other heavy units, which you need to keep alive.
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered Users Posts: 1,090
    The 2nd one is very good suggestion. I think Cataph has already done something like this in his CTT mod, and it works really well.

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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    I completely agree with your points, number 2 is extremely interesting and much more fun.

    CA we demand a change


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Euhmmm not close, more than half you army generally rampage having the ability to remove rampage on one of your unit at a time for a short period is not at all good.

    So with that is LM faction trait, loose control of your unit, gain control for half a min, the loose control...


  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 4,442
    Kranox said:

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Euhmmm not close, more than half you army generally rampage having the ability to remove rampage on one of your unit at a time for a short period is not at all good.

    So with that is LM faction trait, loose control of your unit, gain control for half a min, the loose control...
    Rampage is still a tactical circumstance that you as a Lizardmen player needs to be capable of overcomming. That is why this solution is a good one. Since it requires you to plan ahead....

    "Do you use that clod-blooded now and regain control of the Kroxigors, or do you save it for later, so that you can pull off that critical charge with your Cold-One Riders"

    This adds tactical depth to your decisions..

    Cold-Blooded before was just a boring heal.. Now it adds something, in its ability to counteract Rampage.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467

    Kranox said:

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Euhmmm not close, more than half you army generally rampage having the ability to remove rampage on one of your unit at a time for a short period is not at all good.

    So with that is LM faction trait, loose control of your unit, gain control for half a min, the loose control...
    Rampage is still a tactical circumstance that you as a Lizardmen player needs to be capable of overcomming. That is why this solution is a good one. Since it requires you to plan ahead....

    "Do you use that clod-blooded now and regain control of the Kroxigors, or do you save it for later, so that you can pull off that critical charge with your Cold-One Riders"

    This adds tactical depth to your decisions..

    Cold-Blooded before was just a boring heal.. Now it adds something, in its ability to counteract Rampage.
    Yeah I agree, its a step in the right direction, but its not nearly enough to fix LM


  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,580

    Kranox said:

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Euhmmm not close, more than half you army generally rampage having the ability to remove rampage on one of your unit at a time for a short period is not at all good.

    So with that is LM faction trait, loose control of your unit, gain control for half a min, the loose control...
    Rampage is still a tactical circumstance that you as a Lizardmen player needs to be capable of overcomming. That is why this solution is a good one. Since it requires you to plan ahead....

    "Do you use that clod-blooded now and regain control of the Kroxigors, or do you save it for later, so that you can pull off that critical charge with your Cold-One Riders"

    This adds tactical depth to your decisions..

    Cold-Blooded before was just a boring heal.. Now it adds something, in its ability to counteract Rampage.
    Rampage is also boring as hell, it's worse then cold blooded, since that actually was something the lizardmen could use.
    Now the only healing they have is High magic slann, Mazda and rev crystal.

    The problem is rev crystal is slow and will die to any faction with ranged options.

    Slann are terrible and that leaves us with mazda as the only option for a lord = boring.

    They needed cold-blooded to make up for their reliance on big monsters.
  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Registered Users Posts: 1,002
    Very nice ideas.

    Frankly the lizardmen are my favorite faction aesthetic wise but i consider them the least polished/developed race in tww2.

    Their only truly top tier units are dinosaurs which all get wrecked by anti-large and focused firepower, not to mention that they are nothing special compared to stuff like Star dragons.

    The rest of lizardmen units are either average or weak, and lizardmen have some glaring holes such as no long range AP archer/gunner unit squad and no strong air units and kinda limited choice of Lores of magic.

    Overall lizardmen feel like they have the same design issues like Bretonnia - one trick pony that is countered by anti-large while the entire race is lacking in almost all other fields.
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  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Registered Users Posts: 1,002
    And i forogt to mention the absolute worst trait in the game - RAMPAGE.

    Against a competent player a rampaging unit is pretty much guaranteed DEAD, a free kill.

    Combine all the above weaknesses with the fact that so many Lizardmen units tend to suicide and you got a non viable race.
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  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Registered Users Posts: 411
    My only issue with #2 is how does this interact with monsters and cavalry. Generally, due to med-high charge bonuses, such units start combat winning decisively off the charge. Thus, by your design, these units would either rampage off the charge or run a high risk of doing so.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    It is all good but what nerfs you will suggest to LZD then ? I hope you understand that Predatory fighter rule was implemented as HUGE base dmg for Saurus, Dinos and some current buffed units ( Spear Riders and Kroxis ) as exchange for rampage. You cant just drop limitations and keep all goodies. If rampage can be so manageable you must lost some potential of your units.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467

    Kranox said:

    They are going to make it so, that Cold-Blooded cancels out rampage in the next patch... Pretty much problem solved if you ask me.

    Euhmmm not close, more than half you army generally rampage having the ability to remove rampage on one of your unit at a time for a short period is not at all good.

    So with that is LM faction trait, loose control of your unit, gain control for half a min, the loose control...
    Rampage is still a tactical circumstance that you as a Lizardmen player needs to be capable of overcomming. That is why this solution is a good one. Since it requires you to plan ahead....

    "Do you use that clod-blooded now and regain control of the Kroxigors, or do you save it for later, so that you can pull off that critical charge with your Cold-One Riders"

    This adds tactical depth to your decisions..

    Cold-Blooded before was just a boring heal.. Now it adds something, in its ability to counteract Rampage.
    Yeah I agree, its a step in the right direction, but its not nearly enough to fix LM

    It is all good but what nerfs you will suggest to LZD then ? I hope you understand that Predatory fighter rule was implemented as HUGE base dmg for Saurus, Dinos and some current buffed units ( Spear Riders and Kroxis ) as exchange for rampage. You cant just drop limitations and keep all goodies. If rampage can be so manageable you must lost some potential of your units.

    Actually if you run a lot of test, LM dont overperform without rampage, their stats are not overtunned to compensate wich goes against what we previoulsy tought...

    Kroxis even without rampage would be decently good and viable, but still risky, then the Horned ones might need a tweak, since they got really good stats, but everything is mitigated by rampage


  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,173
    edited October 2018
    Except that most Primal Instincts units in the lizard roster do actually perform pretty much equivalently with non-rampaging counterparts from other factions. Saurus trade very evenly with most infantry in the 750-800 price range. Horned Ones trade terribly with (cheaper!) Questing Knights. Kroxigor don't really have a good unit to compare to from another faction (Fimir might be closest), but they are so cost-efficient that you see them practically never.

    The only units that get a real, appreciable discount for Rampage in the Lizard roster are the ones with the genuine full-throttle Rampage trait - feral dinos. And it's these units that I worry are gonna start dominating over the more traditional tabletop parts of the roster with the new Cold-Blooded change. Let's face it, why is anyone ever gonna take a Scar-Vet now that you can buy a Feral Carnosaur for $300 less and completely de-rampage it with 3 button clicks? Heck, why is anyone gonna buy Horned Ones at 1400 to clear enemy infantry when you can get a Feral Stegadon for 1250?

    @endikux's ideas are new and interesting and I definitely rate them higher than CA's bizarre decision to both acknowledge that Rampage isn't working (by giving us the ability to turn it off) and give us more of it at the same time. Making Primal Instincts units more controllable would be the first step to giving Lizards an actual varied roster back.


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  • endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 494

    My only issue with #2 is how does this interact with monsters and cavalry. Generally, due to med-high charge bonuses, such units start combat winning decisively off the charge. Thus, by your design, these units would either rampage off the charge or run a high risk of doing so.

    That's a really good point. There would have to be a time threshold in holding the winning states as this also applies to infantry in the same way to a lesser degree. The winning state will swing around until eventually stabilizing. Initial charges and other temporary things affecting who is winning in short spurts.

    It would have to hold true for a number of seconds and/or meet a some hidden number threshold which we do not necessarily see from the simply 3 winning states the tooltip only shows.

    I imagine that the winning bar is probably a scale more similar to morale in the backend.

    There could also be a different route which is to remove the rampage risk entirely from mounted units as the saurus who ride them are far more disciplined in order to control their mounts.

    A third option is that feral monsters and cavalry might have an entirely different mechanic. So saurus infantry maybe use method #2 and cav and monsters use method #1.
  • MakoTheMakoMakoTheMako Registered Users Posts: 1,246
    Tbh I don't know why they bound Cold Blooded to Heroes after the change. Every skink unit should have it.

    die about it

  • endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 494

    It is all good but what nerfs you will suggest to LZD then ? I hope you understand that Predatory fighter rule was implemented as HUGE base dmg for Saurus, Dinos and some current buffed units ( Spear Riders and Kroxis ) as exchange for rampage. You cant just drop limitations and keep all goodies. If rampage can be so manageable you must lost some potential of your units.

    It's fine to address unit stats along with the effects of rampage. It would be silly to claim that Lizardmen units should be the ultimate units in the game. That isn't the point of this suggested change.

    I would disagree however with two different premises that you make.

    1) I don't believe the suggested changes make rampage so manageable to the point that it isn't still a detriment. No other units in the game have a loss of control mechanic except rampage units. It would still occur, but yes, it would occur in a more manageable way.

    2) I don't agree that lizardmen units have "huge" base stats. They have pretty good base stats but they are also paid for in both cost and a limited roster. As is often pointed out in this balance forum: you cannot only directly compare units to units, or stas to stats because there are other factors involved in the entire lineup of an army list.

    I would also disagree with one other point, sort of a 3rd disagreement. It is only "sort of" a disagreement because you phrase your question in a way that "nerfs are needed to offset these changes." Again, I agree that overall balancing of stats would be required when making any change, especially of this magnitude to a faction defining ability.

    However, the sentiment is what I disagree with because when you state that "nerfs are needed" it implies that the current state of rampage is an acceptable penalty because it offsets some great advantage. I entirely disagree with this. Even if lizardmen units were the ultimate units in the game, even if saurus could dominate any unit in a 1 on 1 situation, it is not a good condition to lose control of your own units when your opponent decides to take that control away from you by doing damage. It is a flawed design. It is never fun to lose control of the game you are playing because of another player. This has been well documented over the years in all types of games.

    So I am fine with talking about a need for balancing the power of Predatory in a pro/con way, but I don't believe the current status effect is a starting position. It is in itself a poor design because of how it affects the human player behind the controls, not because of how it compared against stats and the like.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,579


    The only units that get a real, appreciable discount for Rampage in the Lizard roster are the ones with the genuine full-throttle Rampage trait - feral dinos. And it's these units that I worry are gonna start dominating over the more traditional tabletop parts of the roster with the new Cold-Blooded change. Let's face it, why is anyone ever gonna take a Scar-Vet now that you can buy a Feral Carnosaur for $300 less and completely de-rampage it with 3 button clicks? Heck, why is anyone gonna buy Horned Ones at 1400 to clear enemy infantry when you can get a Feral Stegadon for 1250?

    @endikux's ideas are new and interesting and I definitely rate them higher than CA's bizarre decision to both acknowledge that Rampage isn't working (by giving us the ability to turn it off) and give us more of it at the same time. Making Primal Instincts units more controllable would be the first step to giving Lizards an actual varied roster back.

    These are very good points. Ferals do have noticeable discounts because of their rampage and feral dino spam is certainly a possibility.

    Maybe having lord and characters having a passive that suppresses Primal Instinct completely (with an additional bonus for Slanns)?

    Slanns have 55m AOE passive suppression
    Other lords 40m
    Heroes 30m

    They can not rampage when they're within range of one of those, and if they're already rampaging, they stop on next tick. Or just have it for Slanns and Skinks, if it is too much to have it on Kroq Gar and Old Bloods...

    That doesn't include Feral Cold Ones or Feral dinos which would still rampage like now wherever they are. Reduce the number of Cold Blooded abilitity to 1 or 2 per character, so you get to use it on ferals and those outside the AOE.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,516
    Kranox said:

    Horned ones might need a tweak, since they got really good stats, but everything is mitigated by rampage

    Def on low side unfortunately. Its just too bad liz has no useful aura whatsoever to help their army.
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  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Registered Users Posts: 1,001
    tyrannus said:

    The 2nd one is very good suggestion. I think Cataph has already done something like this in his CTT mod, and it works really well.

    While I like the idea and I also think that this is a better trigger for rampage, I am surprised that it works well like that. Just triggering by how much a unit is winning a fight seems very finicky to me. Can you explain to me how this works for a cav unit that has a successful charge against a low level unit (will it rampage since it wins by a large amount or can pulling out early enough prevent rampaging all together, making it a non-factor on cav, or something else?). How does it work against factions that can summon a lot or decaying units that will heavily lose every engagement?

    Going from my hunch that it does not work as well as advertised here, I have two suggestions to improve the idea:

    1. I think it should be a chance rather than a certain trigger from the amount of winning the fight (probably pseudo-random), starting with a very small chance from winning slightly. Firstly, if a unit is winning slightly/normal amount/significantly is not really that controllable anyway, so the random chance should make a real difference anyway and it should not be a thing to try to prevent a unit from reaching the top tier of "winningness". Secondly, this enables the option to influence the chance to rampage by other means.

    2. The chance to rampage should be influenced by:
    a) Nearby characters for Lizardmen
    b) Fatigue
    These two things should lower the chance (additively) to trigger rampage. Both of these influence factors should imo be in the game even if the current mechanic persists. There, they should lower the amount of health threshold that triggers rampage, also additively. I don't think it is a good idea to have a binary rampage on/off mechanic in the game. Given how many different match-ups there are in this game, the risk that this would cause frustration as against some factions, it is possible to ignore rampage with such a mechanic while on the other hand against other factions, you still cannot use those units because they will have ways to disrupt you, is too high.
  • endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 494

    I don't think it is a good idea to have a binary rampage on/off mechanic in the game. Given how many different match-ups there are in this game, the risk that this would cause frustration as against some factions, it is possible to ignore rampage with such a mechanic while on the other hand against other factions, you still cannot use those units because they will have ways to disrupt you, is too high.

    I actually agree it should not be a simple binary switch. I commented on this above in more detail. I think a sliding scale, as you mentioned, would be far better. My guess is that the "winning" status is likely more of a sliding numeric scale in the backend of the code and the status we see as slightly-to-significantly is probably when that number crosses certain thresholds. It obviously fluctuates during combat, just like morale constantly does, as you can see a unit pop from "winning" to "evenly matched" and back again, even when it is just 2 units fighting without any other influence.

    My first suggested mechanic works directly off of Morale, so the leadership influence directly affects possible Rampage there. But you are correct that leadership influence should have some kind of dampening affect in the second version. Possibly just changing the threshhold a bit.

    The thing to consider is that in the tabletop there was a chance that even Temple Guard would leave their Slann if they caught the urge to pursue. So there should be some kind of middle ground where the chance can be dampened but not entirely removed.

    Can you explain to me how this works for a cav unit that has a successful charge against a low level unit (will it rampage since it wins by a large amount or can pulling out early enough prevent rampaging all together, making it a non-factor on cav, or something else?). How does it work against factions that can summon a lot or decaying units that will heavily lose every engagement?

    With the 2nd version there is a pro-con aspect to Rampage in that the more they are winning the better their melee attack. This definitely could easily snowball into the scenario you are painting- where a high attack cavalry unit charging into a low tier garbage unit would be so successful that rampage would be practically guaranteed.

    I think there are 2 different things to consider and I'll offer one possible solution.

    1) Consider that this is the downside or "nerf" (as mentioned in an earlier post) that you get from Lizardmen having Predatory nature and effectively being superhuman fighters. They hit harder and are naturally armored, they are natural warrior, but that comes at a heavy price in that if you send them against an enemy that is so pathetic that it hardly offers a fight then their dino brain will kick in and they will see the enemy as prey/food instead of a military enemy to fight tactically.

    To boil it down, being too successful is highly risky. This means a LM player has to consider where to send his cavalry more so than standard cavalry because you might want to prioritize charging units that are a slightly better match for them rather than charging into a bunch of bowmen or slaves which will just send the cold one riders into a rampage.

    It distinguishes the LM faction.

    2) Consider that your second question is a great one. An enemy who knows how lizardmen behave can use this to their advantage and to try and lure LM cavalry away by summoning garbage tier units. This counter-play adds another interesting element that elevates the chessboard strategic thinking of the battlefield. It's another way to help offset the benefits of the lizardmen's innate strengths.

    Some people have commented that the detriment of Rampage is calculated into the statline of LM units. That is a slightly different debate, but what we can say is that having the kind of downside you mention is in itself a balancing factor.

    I would still say that the possibility of a summoned unit is still much better than the punishment of just taking missile fire to activate rampage.

    3) The possible solution is a very simple one that addresses cavalry directly. It is simply that while the "charging" status effect is active (we know this is a status effect because there is text representation when charging is active on a unit) then Rampage is prevented from being calculated. So simple make charging cancel out rampage. Charging only last a few seconds and once the charge is over the "winning" condition is more natural. If rampage via winning is calculated after a charge is complete then it still works as intended.
  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Registered Users Posts: 1,001
    Disabled while charging seems like a good idea. As long as not too many units are rampaging at once with this mechanic (I am not really able to theorycraft this, but with things like for example Lizardmen auras and fatigue influencing rampage chance, that should not be the case), this could be a nice and interesting change.
  • ptavangarptavangar Registered Users Posts: 1,172
    To the OP: You say that damage is only ever done to your own units by the enemy. You're mostly correct but don't forget about FF. Your own spells, artillery, and ranged units also do dmg to your own. Although, if you are doing FF then that usually means that your lines have met with the enemy's.
  • ptavangarptavangar Registered Users Posts: 1,172
    All in all a very good analysis. I really like the OP's ideas and hope that @CA_Duck takes a gander. A rework of predatory senses and rampage in general is definitely in order. The changes made to cold blooded is a good start. But to make the LM more interesting/complex and to make them more fun (rather than simply losing control of all your units), these changes should be implemented. I love the added complexity and thought behind the idea that you would have to be careful not to send your saurus into any old engagement. You don't want them to absolutely pummel low tier units since they would be at a high risk of rampaging. But at the same time, you have to be careful not to send them into a bad situation and you want them to gain some of those MA buffs.


    Would make for some really interesting gameplay for sure. If used properly, this could actually be a buff overall for the LM. And honestly, it isn't fair that the LM don't have a helpful faction ability like murderous/martial prowess/mastery. At present, the rampage/primal instincts mechanics only hurt. And predatory senses is only a little helpful because it helps you spot stalking units. It could be so much more...
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