How could the Detachments Rule be translated into the game

cool_lad#3330

The divisions rule is a pretty important rule relating to Empire state troops that has unfortunately not been implemented into the game (one of the many ways the Empire seems to suffer from being finished early).

This rule allowed each regiment to take several Detachments which could be upto half the size of the Regiment. These Detachments would get a free, out of turn counterfire or countercharge action should the parent regiment be attacked. This made Empire state troops surprisingly good when defending, as attacking regiments would immediately invite counterfire and countercharges from their Detachments.

While the 20 unit limit presented obvious issues with a direct implementation, I think that the countercharge and counterfire actions can still be implemented into the game.

So, the question I'm putting forward is this; how do you think that the essence of the Detachments rule can be implemented into the game?

TheShiroOfDalton

You already made that thread, you remember?

Nothing has changed. It's not going to happen because TWWH doesn't allow for mixed units. Also, it's quite clear already you just want to buff Empire ranged and aren't interested in balance.

uriak

Such rules are deeply tied to the TT rules and unit action limitations.

The Empire unit stats aren't too bad, and its firepower too. The only "questionnable" units are the 3 skirmishing cavalry ones, but if history serves, the "caracole" tactic never was that efficient to begin with and ultimately armies came back to the notion of armored heavy cavalry.

Some other TT rules haven't been translated, to the benefit or disadvantage of some factions, especially the reliability of different weapons. It would go dwarfs > empire > greenskins > skavens for instance.

Sbygneus

They could at least give some leadership bonus to missile troops standing close by halberds or spears

Warlocke

Counter charge:

See enemy charging unit X.
Click charge with unit Y.

Counter fire:

See enemy charging unit X.
Fire with unit Y.

You’re welcome.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Warlocke said:

Counter charge:

See enemy charging unit X.
Click charge with unit Y.

Counter fire:

See enemy charging unit X.
Fire with unit Y.

You’re welcome.

Are these actions instant (incl their dmg) and also applies a huge ld penalty to counter charged unit? Because if not then you havent implemented the detachment rules. Empire on the tt could still charge with unit y the followikg turn if unit x was charged which is what you describe.

As others have said the implementation from turns to real time means changes.

Martial mastery for example.

So the answer is detachment rule should probably something else than what it was in the tt (effect wise, trying to copy it into something like it was on the tt might not work as well)

When CA reveals the empire update maybe their will be a new detachment rule.

Setrus#7519

Sbygneus said:

They could at least give some leadership bonus to missile troops standing close by halberds or spears

Isn't that essentially the "flanks protected" buff?

Warlocke

Tennisgolfboll said:

Warlocke said:

Counter charge:

See enemy charging unit X.
Click charge with unit Y.

Counter fire:

See enemy charging unit X.
Fire with unit Y.

You’re welcome.

Are these actions instant (incl their dmg) and also applies a huge ld penalty to counter charged unit? Because if not then you havent implemented the detachment rules. Empire on the tt could still charge with unit y the followikg turn if unit x was charged which is what you describe.

As others have said the implementation from turns to real time means changes.

Martial mastery for example.

So the answer is detachment rule should probably something else than what it was in the tt (effect wise, trying to copy it into something like it was on the tt might not work as well)

When CA reveals the empire update maybe their will be a new detachment rule.

My point is as that the detachment rules don’t need to be applied; this isn’t a turn based game.

uriak

As I said, some rules have been lost in the conversion. The factions can be balanced from other stuff. The good drilling of empire troops can be reflected in their MA/MD and leadership.

I feel the biggest difference between the two games is the absence of strength vs tough ness. It woul change a lot the amount of damage able to be inflicted. This absence makes the low tier orc units kinda underwhelming. And of course Ap vs armor is translated in a very different way. An AP unit is good against any armore, whereas in the TT having say -1 wasn't as much a big deal vs some really tough nuts.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Warlocke said:

Tennisgolfboll said:

Warlocke said:

Counter charge:

See enemy charging unit X.
Click charge with unit Y.

Counter fire:

See enemy charging unit X.
Fire with unit Y.

You’re welcome.

Are these actions instant (incl their dmg) and also applies a huge ld penalty to counter charged unit? Because if not then you havent implemented the detachment rules. Empire on the tt could still charge with unit y the followikg turn if unit x was charged which is what you describe.

As others have said the implementation from turns to real time means changes.

Martial mastery for example.

So the answer is detachment rule should probably something else than what it was in the tt (effect wise, trying to copy it into something like it was on the tt might not work as well)

When CA reveals the empire update maybe their will be a new detachment rule.

My point is as that the detachment rules don’t need to be applied; this isn’t a turn based game.

I kinda agree with that.

But maybe CA will do something awesome with it.

cool_lad#3330

Warlocke said:

Tennisgolfboll said:

Warlocke said:

Counter charge:

See enemy charging unit X.
Click charge with unit Y.

Counter fire:

See enemy charging unit X.
Fire with unit Y.

You’re welcome.

Are these actions instant (incl their dmg) and also applies a huge ld penalty to counter charged unit? Because if not then you havent implemented the detachment rules. Empire on the tt could still charge with unit y the followikg turn if unit x was charged which is what you describe.

As others have said the implementation from turns to real time means changes.

Martial mastery for example.

So the answer is detachment rule should probably something else than what it was in the tt (effect wise, trying to copy it into something like it was on the tt might not work as well)

When CA reveals the empire update maybe their will be a new detachment rule.

My point is as that the detachment rules don’t need to be applied; this isn’t a turn based game.

That would be true if the detachment rules were universal rules that were available to all factions. That is patently not the case here.

Detachments were unique to the Empire and the rules were more akin to rules such as martial prowess and murderous prowess. Detachments were a pretty significant factor in how Empire state troops operated and contributed a great deal to their strength.

And while these rules can't be translated as is into the game as is, neither could murderous prowess or martial prowess. And since we already have the other 2 unique rules translated into the game, why shouldn't the Empire also get its unique rules as well.

devilspen

It kinda is translated into the game.
The underlying concept of the detachment rules (as also described in the Empire army book) is, that while individually inferior to most other Warhammer races, the Empire's army can hold its own due to discipline and the synergy of its smaller parts.

This is reflected in the game, as the Empire only works on par with other armies when using all of its parts. While I'm not much into playing MP myself, I think it is commonly accepted in the MP-community, that the Empire is only competitive with above average micro management, because the infantry alone can't win the battle for you. You need the support of your skirmishers, Knights and sometimes artillery. Imo this is the perfect translation of the detachment rule.

cool_lad#3330

devilspen said:

It kinda is translated into the game.
The underlying concept of the detachment rules (as also described in the Empire army book) is, that while individually inferior to most other Warhammer races, the Empire's army can hold its own due to discipline and the synergy of its smaller parts.

This is reflected in the game, as the Empire only works on par with other armies when using all of its parts. While I'm not much into playing MP myself, I think it is commonly accepted in the MP-community, that the Empire is only competitive with above average micro management, because the infantry alone can't win the battle for you. You need the support of your skirmishers, Knights and sometimes artillery. Imo this is the perfect translation of the detachment rule.

It's rather more than that. Detachments allowed Empire state troops to punch way above their league. It isn't just that state troops needed to work as a cohesive whole, its that they were far better at doing so than the other races.

Detachments were a net buff to Empire; allowing state troops regiments to become a nasty surprise for the enemy due to the immediate countercharge and counterfire actions. This meant that a regiment with the right detachments was not an easy target to assault and any charges, even by elite units would often result in heavy casualties due to the detachments' out of turn attacks.

cool_lad#3330

I think that I need to clarify something here. This thread isn't about WHETHER Detachments should be implemented into the game, it's about HOW detachments could be adapted to be implemented into the game.

Personally I think that detachments could work like a charge reflector rule, which causes any unit charging a regiment to take a certain amount of damage back; the damage reflected being dependent on the state troop units that are around the regiment being charged.